Allflex and IRON-ROCK, mysteries and things

[daveo]

3 hours ago, pauleleven said:

AND THEY ARE ALL CORRECTLY TRANSLATED!

You sure PaulyPaul? I dunno man but the English seems pretty to me. 

"Maximum bend of snowboard in one arch"

"Snowboarders of every quality classes can use maximum advantages of IRON Rock plates."

"Snowboarding with a plate is easier, because Iron Rock plate bends the board, which can not be compared to bending of some other, similar snowboard plates."

“IRON Rock plate allows me to maximal bend my snowboard in one arch, which is very important for precise turns on the high rank competitions.”

[BlueB]

5 hours ago, skategoat said:

Without patent protection, what would be the incentive to invent and innovate? Do you think James Watt, Thomas Edison and Nikolai Tesla toiled in their workshops for the benefit of humanity? 

The Industrial Age happened because of the patent system in Britain.

The protection of one's intellectual property is a fundamental building block of our modern economy. Without it, the smartphone and the automobile you use every day would not exist. Without it, we would not be enjoying healthy lives into our 80s and 90s. 

Aco Sitar (All-flex), Hansjuerg Kessler, Fin Doyle - all filed patents for their inventions. Do you think they would have created their products if they didn't think their investments would be protected? 

It's Nikola, not Nikolai... We have a lot of our modern stuff, including the radio and x-rays, because he didn't bother pursuing his IP. Then, we don't have a lot more because lots of his stuff was hidden, or purposely destroyed, by big guys. 

IP protection or not, the invention happens. It's part of human nature, that's what made us what we are. Being smart as we are, we copy the winning models of behaviour or technology. In a big picture, unrestricted access to knowledge can only improve our species, even if it means less profit for a big guy. Ultimately, it would mean transition into socialism, but that's another topic... 

[Corey]

5 minutes ago, BlueB said:

Ultimately, it would mean transition into socialism, but that's another topic

[BlueB]

5 minutes ago, Corey said:

Well, I said transition. The previous attempt was a revolution, while it actualy needs to be evolution... 

[pauleleven]

2 minutes ago, BlueB said:

Well, I said transition. The previous attempt was a revolution, while it actualy needs to be evolution... 

Communism actually works in an idealistic society where all parties involved are equally educated, socialism does that and it works. 

Wait, communism is good, party is good, everyone happy and things.

30 minutes ago, daveo said:

You sure PaulyPaul? I dunno man but the English seems pretty to me. 

 

Chinese good me, me english no well

ho devao

[daveo]

1 minute ago, pauleleven said:

Chinese good me, me english no well

ho devao

You should really English betterer Pauly

[lonbordin]

51 minutes ago, Jack M said:

Henry (and I) are saying that if you willfully purchase something that you know is IP theft, then you are party to that theft.  Whether that's legally punishable is another matter, but it's morally wrong, IMO.

We, this board, are some of the most knowledgeable consumers around when it comes to alpine snowboard gear outside of the World Cup circuit itself.

No one has stood on the table and shouted we are stealing from B. Karl's plate design!  How about Bomber or Donek from Apex or VIST?  or even Iron Rock from Allflex?  A lot of those designs are strikingly similar to each other.  Do you really feel the the folks here can make that judgement with the limited set of facts we are privy to?  I bet there are less than 10 board members who have even touched both a Iron Rock and Allflex plate.

You no doubt have an iPhone or an Android phone.  There have been numerous IP battles through the years about the phones.  Did it stop you from purchasing one?  This was big news at one point.  If you read the news would you have stopped purchasing or using until the court battles had ended?  

Before this thread I didn't know Iron Rock or Monster plates existed.  I'm not planning to purchase either.  That said I could not say authoritatively whether or not IP has been breached in either case.  One does seem a little more obvious than the other.  So if I can't with my extensive background I would not presume to make a moral judgement if someone did purchase those products.

[pauleleven]

33 minutes ago, lonbordin said:

No one has stood on the table and shouted we are stealing from B. Karl's plate design!  How about Bomber or Donek from Apex or VIST?  or even Iron Rock from Allflex?  A lot of those designs are strikingly similar to each other.  Do you really feel the the folks here can make that judgement with the limited set of facts we are privy to?  I bet there are less than 10 board members who have even touched both a Iron Rock and Allflex plate.

There is a difference between strikingly similar and blatant (and lazy) copying, it's often the case when something great first gets invented, the original creators don't end up very well. That is because the upfront cost is huge both in manufacturing and opening up the market, while competitors will borrow the idea, make adjustments to it and compete. Sometimes the adjustments turn out to be improvements and it drives the industry forward.

But what's happening with Iron-Rock is just lazy and blatant copying, they have crossed the fine line of acceptable "improving the design". The fact is that Rok Marguc has been selling these copies (often unbranded) for a few season now, it's kind of like Tim Cook selling exact iPhone copies, and calls it the oPhone or something, charging a slightly lower price to steal the market.

 

Edited January 24, 2019 by pauleleven

[pauleleven]

49 minutes ago, daveo said:

You should really English betterer Pauly

你为什么不爱我了

[Jack M]

1 hour ago, lonbordin said:

We, this board, are some of the most knowledgeable consumers around when it comes to alpine snowboard gear outside of the World Cup circuit itself.

No one has stood on the table and shouted we are stealing from B. Karl's plate design!  How about Bomber or Donek from Apex or VIST?  or even Iron Rock from Allflex?  A lot of those designs are strikingly similar to each other.  Do you really feel the the folks here can make that judgement with the limited set of facts we are privy to?  I bet there are less than 10 board members who have even touched both a Iron Rock and Allflex plate.

You no doubt have an iPhone or an Android phone.  There have been numerous IP battles through the years about the phones.  Did it stop you from purchasing one?  This was big news at one point.  If you read the news would you have stopped purchasing or using until the court battles had ended?  

Before this thread I didn't know Iron Rock or Monster plates existed.  I'm not planning to purchase either.  That said I could not say authoritatively whether or not IP has been breached in either case.  One does seem a little more obvious than the other.  So if I can't with my extensive background I would not presume to make a moral judgement if someone did purchase those products.

Like I said, I can't exactly define IP theft, but when I think I see it, I don't like it.  Iron Rock and Monster plates are outrageous ripoffs, IMO.  Anyone can make a car, but only Chevrolet can make a Corvette.  Apex, Boiler, et al are not ripoffs of Karl's design, they altered and improved upon it.

I am blissfully unaware of any IP theft in my phone.  I am shocked, shocked! to find gambling going on here!  I feel bad for anyone whose idea was stolen for it, but ultimately, I need a phone.  I do what I can.

Hey if you want to talk about smartphones, nobody who considers themselves an environmentalist should own one.  Or anything made in China or India for that matter. 

[daveo]

4 hours ago, Jack M said:

I am blissfully unaware of any IP theft in my phone.  I am shocked, shocked! to find gambling going on here!  I feel bad for anyone whose idea was stolen for it, but ultimately, I need a phone.  I do what I can.

lol you can't be serious, Plate King. Your phone is just a computer! I even ran Ubuntu on my last phone...

Apple vs Samsung has been an ongoing battle for over, at a guess, 10 years...?

[ursle]

The way I recall.

First Palmer released his riser plates made by Kessler, for softboots, (I used 'em to get higher off Virus 14.1 width boards) then Kessler released his riser plates, then Vist released their plate, one end fixed the other end slid, or the middle was fixed (requiring new mounting hole placement) and both ends slid, then Apex released the duckbill, one end fixed the other slid.(and another mounting hole placement design)

Then Karl made his contraption, the first hindged plate, then allflex (yet another mounting hole change) Now the allflex clones.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 25, 2019 by ursle

[SunSurfer]

@ursle FIS Snowboard have a Smugmug photo site. Images back to 2009. First event of the 2009 year, an indoor PSL in Holland, B Karl on podium with one other both riding his metal sliding axle plate design. Next event, a PGS in Italy, JJA on podium and on ?Hangl, but certainly not an Apex or any kind of sliding plate.

https://fis.smugmug.com/FISSnowboard/World-Cup/2009

 

 

Edited January 25, 2019 by SunSurfer

[skategoat]

The vast majority of patients are improvements on an existing invention. Fintan Doyle did not invent the snowboard binding with toe and heel bails. But he invented a novel improvement and was granted a patent.

Edited January 26, 2019 by skategoat

[ursle]

Vist began offering plates for skis in the 80's, for snowboards arounf 2005.

It's my understanding that Karl's plate was the origional hindged plate, haven't laid hands on one, but, first vist then apex released sliding plates... then Karl made his own,   be it hindged or sliding.

[BlueB]

5 hours ago, ursle said:

Vist began offering plates for skis in the 80's, for snowboards arounf 2005.

It's my understanding that Karl's plate was the origional hindged plate, haven't laid hands on one, but, first vist then apex released sliding plates... then Karl made his own,   be it hindged or sliding.

First, we need to figure out what is really a hinged plate, as opposed to floating axle(s) plate, vs sliding plate. Things get even more complicated with plates that are hybrid of the hinge/axle and sliding... Not even to mention the flex modifying plates vs those that don't... 

In my mind the Tinkler, F2 Conshox, Vist, Kessler, and probably that other discontinued Apex (European), as well as some of Donek variations, are sliding plates (have direct contact with the board and slide on it, being locked at one section only and other connected sections being allowed to slide. They are all also flex modifiers to some extent (Tinkler the most, Kessler the least), as they have to bend with the board. 

The Hangl-Spirig plates (separate, one for each foot), Carl's plate, Apex (Canadian), Bomber, original Donek and JJA, are the floating axle plates - rear axle rotates, front one slides, while the plate (mostly) doesn't affect the flex of the board (floats). I guess, we could call the rear axle a hinge, or we could call front axle a slider, but I think it unnecessarily confuses the issue, so lets just call them floating axle designs? 

Then comes the Allflex and the ripoff plate, that are really attached on some sort of double-hinge, at the ends and middle. It seems to be acting as a floating design until reaching the design limit, from where it acts a flex modifier... I like calling those hinged plates. 

 

I guess the time line is slightly different, too. I'll give it a try, just putting the plate designs in sequence, but I'm too lazy to search up all the correct dates... 

In ski racing world, there were Vist and Hangl-Spirig plates, since long ago, Vist being more of a slider and Hangl-Spirig a floating hinge. I kind of remember Dynastar and Head also heaving their versions of sliding, or just rising plates, at slightly later stage, with pretty much every other ski/binding manufacturer jumping on the wagon later on... 

At snowboards, I believe Tinkler was the first to put a sliding, flex modifying plate on. Most would remember Mark Fawcett being in a comfortable lead when his Prior/Tinkler combo exploded, in Nagano 1998... 
Next would be the Hangl-Spirig separate feet floating axle plates, that brought lots of success to Schosh brothers and many others; 
Followed by Vist sliding plate (and later Kessler and Donek variants); 
Followed by B. Carl's home made floating axle plate; 
Followed by Apex Sports floating axle plate of JJA Gold fame (and later Bomber, Donek and JJA's own versions); 
Followed by Allflex hinged plate (and the copies)... 
There are probably few other Euro, Russian and Asian designs too, but I can't be bothered to research those too. I think I named the ones that had most podiums and led the way of the development... 

Edited January 25, 2019 by BlueB

[pauleleven]

5 hours ago, ursle said:

Vist began offering plates for skis in the 80's, for snowboards arounf 2005.

It's my understanding that Karl's plate was the origional hindged plate, haven't laid hands on one, but, first vist then apex released sliding plates... then Karl made his own,   be it hindged or sliding.

I've been looking To Karl's plate from FIS Smugmug, it's pretty interesting:

In 2009 he is the only one with a sliding plate, most others have gecko type separate riser, but Karl's plate is built on top of two similar risers, and it's not one plate on top but rather two (almost scrap steel like) pieces propped on a rider, then connected with steel bars on either side. They are those C bars too so literally no bending them.....

Then in 2010, JJA rides a floating axle type, really long in the front, always covered in tape and stickers until the last two races, revealing it to be Apex.

2011 2012 surprisingly not a lot more floating axles, more vist and K plates for sure. Karl still rides his monstrosity, Nevin starts competing around this point, Rok Marguc rides Allflex and appears to be the only one to do so for these two years, more or less.....

Will look at following years in the next few weeks, it's tangible history about equipments as well, lol

[everts72]

Rok was only rider with Allflex, because he and Aco developed and tested this plate from zero to this point where it is now. Later when other riders started to use Allflex had Aco and Rok some misunderstanding I would say.
And now we are here.... Allflex vs Iron Rok.

 

[BlueB]

6 minutes ago, everts72 said:

Rok was only rider with Allflex, because he and Aco developed and tested this plate from zero to this point where it is now. Later when other riders started to use Allflex had Aco and Rok some misunderstanding I would say.
And now we are here.... Allflex vs Iron Rok.

I thought there would be another side of the story, too... 

[pauleleven]

9 minutes ago, everts72 said:

Rok was only rider with Allflex, because he and Aco developed and tested this plate from zero to this point where it is now. 

 

2 minutes ago, BlueB said:

I thought there would be another side of the story, too... 

If only someone could fill in the history part between these two, there's only one side issuing a statement, and it's an accusation.....

[Lurch]

Like Jack alluded to previously,  there are some weird market forces at play here. Outside racing circles, it is rare enough to come across a hard booter, let alone one with a plate. Even if you do,  it's unlikely to be an Allflex (or like) version, so it's  a fair assumption the commercial target for them is racers.

Outside the top 10, I'm guessing each competitor might buy one or two plates a season, which no doubt get recycled down through the field in following seasons. I would be surprised if Allflex sold more than 1000 units in a season (@skategoat be great if could add some market info here). An aggressive new market competitor pedaling the same technology might dream of getting 50% of that market, so you would be tooling up to sell <500 units, of which you need several variations. 

Unlike that old motor sport gem 'what wins on Sunday sells on Monday' there is no wider market. Unless there is some personal motivation (i.e. I will build a Lamborghini just to show Enzo who is the don) I just can't get my head around the commercial reality.

[pauleleven]

8 minutes ago, Lurch said:

I just can't get my head around the commercial reality.

The commercial reality is Asians.... Crazy, Rich Asians.......

Sorry but yeah, even though hardbooting and carving is pretty big in Asia, I feel it's big for all the wrong reasons... Of many thousands of Asian Carvers, hardboot or not, there are only two on this forum, @Caswell and myself.......

[BlueB]

1 hour ago, pauleleven said:

The commercial reality is Asians.... Crazy, Rich Asians.......

Sorry but yeah, even though hardbooting and carving is pretty big in Asia, I feel it's big for all the wrong reasons... Of many thousands of Asian Carvers, hardboot or not, there are only two on this forum, @Caswell and myself.......

There are more, for sure. I can tell you, of the bat, 2 Japanese riders: @kaz and @Masahiko. Maybe they also can chime a bit about popularity and story of Allflex / Iron-Rock in Japan? 

Now, why do you say "for all the wrong reasons"? I'd be really interested to hear... 

[pauleleven]

8 hours ago, BlueB said:

 Now, why do you say "for all the wrong reasons"? I'd be really interested to hear... 

In china, only very few people know the operating principles and differences of the plates, even though it's pretty much very accessible information (if you go here). People's understanding of plates in general stays at: pro athletes use them, they must be good, I must have one. 

It's not driven by need, it's mere immitation. 

[michael.a]

Some of you forgot that you can patent a similar product as long as it has a novel function or design or even different manufacturing process and its fair game. Thats the whole point, protect what one did but keep the door open to innovation. And as some mentioned its a very fine line and open to serious litigation

That said, Ive never seen an Iron Rock board in person but from the pictures I dont see an iota of difference from an Allflex. A literal copy and paste.