pauleleven Posted January 22, 2019 Report Share Posted January 22, 2019 (edited) Hi all, Prior reading and websites to look at: http://ironrock.eu/en/ https://www.allflexplate.com/ENG/Home http://carver.si/snowboard_plate_systems/allflex_plate_systems Here are some facts: Iron-Rock and Allflex is completely identical Iron-Rock did not exist until the 2018-2019 season Iron-Rock only has one type of cut under the plate, Rectangular, whereas Allflex has Triangular, Rectangular and Hexagonal, also a spring variant where there is a cut between the two middle inserts and two halfs connect with both spring and middle inserts (Refer to carver.si). When I talked to the distributor in China, he said that they only have Rectangular because it is the lightest, among other comments. Allflex has a very long allegation against Rok Marguc & gang on the website Allflex says the firm that makes the fake is in Slovenska Konjice, Iron-Rock's distributor in Slovenia is in a town called Oplotnica, which is 8 km away. Iron-Rock comes out with a nice website in SIX languages, including the three Asian countries who also happen to be the richest (and most ignorant) consumers. Chinese version is completely correct in translation, which means there's a cabal of international distributors working together to market the brand. A new company comes out with this many languages rubs me the wrong way..... Edited January 22, 2019 by pauleleven Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauleleven Posted January 22, 2019 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2019 Additionally, Iron-Rock partners with other relatively new companies, Nobile for example, to do intensive marketing bombardment on facebook and other platforms. They are also distributed in Korea, Japan and China by also Nobile's distributors in each respective region, check Iron-Rock's website. Lastly, The Chinese distributor told me that they used to be the same company, but then they split, and Allflex lost the lawsuit so they had to come out with the spring version, to which my immediate response was WTF????? Allflex is forced to innovate because they lost the IP lawsuit???????? This photo is from ISPO Beijing where Iron-Rock and Nobile is shown by the same distributor Side note: This board from Nobile has one thick layer of PTEX layed between two layers of Titanal, interesting board indeed..... Let the scandal begin...... @daveo HI DAVEO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveo Posted January 22, 2019 Report Share Posted January 22, 2019 @pauleleven back at it again! But does allflex have THIS plate below? 2020 you'll see it in production. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corey Posted January 22, 2019 Report Share Posted January 22, 2019 Is there no copyright or patent? If not, all the good will and intentions in the world are meaningless. Iron Rock can just argue that they came to a similar design concurrently. Harsh, but I've seen the same thing in multiple industries. I question the use of aluminum for a plate that's designed to flex repeatedly. Aluminum structures don't tend to last long when deflecting large amounts. It's good enough for a prototype, or for those willing to replace regularly, but the material should be changed to something with a near-infinite fatigue life eventually. You could replicate the bending properties of each of the AllFlex cuts with carbon/fiberglass/etc. But there is a frequency component that I'm sure is tough to match... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pokkis Posted January 22, 2019 Report Share Posted January 22, 2019 21 minutes ago, daveo said: @pauleleven back at it again! But does allflex have THIS plate below? 2020 you'll see it in production. This one has interesting insert pattern, very close to nose at center Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveo Posted January 22, 2019 Report Share Posted January 22, 2019 Yeah I don't really understand what's going on. Would like to see it from the bottom. Prototype, might not even be a finished prototype.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonbordin Posted January 22, 2019 Report Share Posted January 22, 2019 Are there price point differences? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauleleven Posted January 22, 2019 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2019 6 minutes ago, lonbordin said: Are there price point differences? Iron rock is charging ~800-900 euros Allflex new typically between 1.2-1.5k I believe 1 hour ago, Corey said: Is there no copyright or patent? If not, all the good will and intentions in the world are meaningless. I question the use of aluminum for a plate that's designed to flex repeatedly. Allflex mentions in the notice that they hold the patent, listed a number, I'll look into it in a bit. It is my understanding that Allflex has a proprietary aluminum alloy, possibly can take the long-term fatigue? The structure and mechanics of allflex is easily replicable if you have one in your hands, 3d scans, cnc and all, not to mention if it is true that Iron-Rock's people used to work with Allflex on R&D then they'd have the exact dimensions. I always thought what makes Allflex so special is the property of the alloy, what looks like an Allflex, weighs like an Allflex, just won't feel and perform like an Allflex. Didn't someone in Russia make a plastic version of Allflex? @Caswell 1 hour ago, daveo said: @pauleleven back at it again! But does allflex have THIS plate below? 2020 you'll see it in production. HI DAVEO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauleleven Posted January 22, 2019 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2019 1 hour ago, Corey said: You could replicate the bending properties of each of the AllFlex cuts with carbon/fiberglass/etc. But there is a frequency component that I'm sure is tough to match... Speaking of this, I looked into the different cuts of Allflex with different stiffnesses right around the same time @nevingalmarini posted on the forward-lean thread about Ester and Nevin's setup. My takeaway was nothing but respect to the pro riders because of the almost fanatic approach they have towards more performance, no doubt the best either got all the different cuts and stiffnesses of Allflex (which will most definitely have different characteristics), or went to Slovenia to test them, in order to find one that fits them best. This information is also just, not on the open web, it's a whole different world of professionalism and expertise that you'd have to work closely with Aco Sitar in order to gain access to. Iron-Rock having just one cut with different stiffnesses seems too easy, now they have this carbon variant? Is it really performance oriented or just a gimmick??? I wonder........ I'm poor and unprofessional so I won't even get the chance to ride with Allflex for a long time, let along test all variants of Allflex...... 1 hour ago, daveo said: Yeah I don't really understand what's going on. Would like to see it from the bottom. Prototype, might not even be a finished prototype.. HIIIII DAVEO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corey Posted January 22, 2019 Report Share Posted January 22, 2019 That picture could also be showing carbon-fiber-look vinyl on an aluminum plate. Don't get me wrong: It would royally suck to create something game-changing, through years of testing, only to have your sub-supplier (foreign CNC shop?) rip off the design and run a 2nd shift for themselves. This is a really good reason to only have one component made at any supplier, and keep the other part suppliers from knowing who makes the other parts. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bucky Posted January 22, 2019 Report Share Posted January 22, 2019 I took a look at the patents. The patent mentioned on the Allflex webpage (the publication is EP2285457B1) is a granted EPO patent with claims that are directed to . . . a plate for skis. The priority document for the patent was filed in 2008. There is no mention of snowboards in the patent. The claims specify mounting on a ski - "1. A platform for mounting a ski binding (71) to a ski (5) consisting of a fixing assembly (1) which is comprised of at least a base plate (11), which is adapted to be fixed to the upper surface (50) of the ski (5) in each selected area for the fixing of the ski binding (7), and said fixing assembly (1) is adapted to receive and hold a ski boot (6) in the desired position of the intended front assembly (71) and the rear assembly (72) of the ski binding (7), characterized in that the base plate (11) is elastically deformable . . . ." Features 71 and 72 are clearly the toe and heel pieces of standard ski bindings. Don't know if this link will work: https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?FT=D&date=20121017&DB=&locale=en_EP&CC=EP&NR=2285457B1&KC=B1&ND=4# It may be open to discussion whether a snowboard can be considered to be a ski within the terms of the patent claim. Allflex has filed a new patent application on the spring plate (PCT Publ. 2018169494) which specifically references snowboards. https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/inpadocPatentFamily?CC=SI&NR=25390A&KC=A&FT=D&ND=3&date=20180928&DB=&locale=en_EP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauleleven Posted January 22, 2019 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2019 6 minutes ago, bucky said: It may be open to discussion whether a snowboard can be considered to be a ski within the terms of the patent claim. Allflex has filed a new patent application on the spring plate (PCT Publ. 2018169494) which specifically references snowboards. Wow, thanks for that, guess that's what they meant by Allflex lost the lawsuit. I'm guessing the Court ruled that snowboard plate is not protected by the patent and hence Iron-rock(or anyone else) can produce an exact copy. Also what they meant by Allflex designing the spring plate with a patent to protect it. Shitty thing for the people at Iron-Rock to do, but it is what it is..... 51 minutes ago, Corey said: Don't get me wrong: It would royally suck to create something game-changing, through years of testing, only to have your sub-supplier (foreign CNC shop?). Iron-Rock is made in Slovenia as well, not even a foreign shop, which really sucks.... I absolutely love Slovenia as a country, nicest people, highly educated and most importantly very, very trusting. Now I feel really bad for Allflex..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caswell Posted January 23, 2019 Report Share Posted January 23, 2019 It's a bit like the northwave 950 boots and the Mountain Slope Point 951 boots. As a user, I have never used iron rock so I can't say which is better. If it is legal and the product is better and cheaper, I think I will consider it. As a product manager, copying the design is plagiarism and laziness, I think it's not good. But design also needs to develop and compete, we only choose the best results. I think the most important thing about the product is telling me what it can solve and letting us know why the product is good and not deceiving us. The false propaganda of iron rock products by Chinese channel dealers makes me sick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveo Posted January 23, 2019 Report Share Posted January 23, 2019 (edited) No one seemed to care when everyone copied the original Apex plate. Maybe not as blatantly, but preeeeetty much the same thing. The virus plate, all boiler plates, one from donek, a few more smaller companies also... All pretty much the same design. One sliding axle, one hinge, stiff plate on top, connected to ASIP (sorry, UPM) or 4x4 insert. The name for the insert pattern was even taken away from Apex. Maybe we can call the AllFlex inserts the Universal Flex Mounts. UFM. Just to add insult to injury. If they didn't protect themselves then that definitely sucks and I feel for them because now they're missing out on podiums and that's what sells these plates, but no protection likely comes down to poor or naive business practice. There are many examples of this in the past, it's not like they were unaware that if you make a new product you need to protect yourself. Not saying I agree with iron rock has done (but let's just say that I don't think we all know the full story here......), and it isn't something I would do, but as a consumer, if it's cheaper and as good (which it seems they are), why not give them a chance? Who knows, they might have even fixed the micro crack issue... After some inquiries, though, the equivalent Allflex is cheaper for me. @pauleleven yoooooooooo Edited January 23, 2019 by daveo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobdea Posted January 23, 2019 Report Share Posted January 23, 2019 You know, I’m glad someone mentioned fatigue. Since I first saw an Alflex flexing I’ve been waiting for someone to post pictures of one that has blown up. I’ll stick with laminate plates for now. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveo Posted January 23, 2019 Report Share Posted January 23, 2019 5 minutes ago, bobdea said: You know, I’m glad someone mentioned fatigue. Since I first saw an Alflex flexing I’ve been waiting for someone to post pictures of one that has blown up. I’ll stick with laminate plates for now. They all crack. Especially the light (non longitudinal cut) ones. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caswell Posted January 23, 2019 Report Share Posted January 23, 2019 @pauleleven Russians are very good at copying designs. I have seen allflex plate made of plastic on avito site. http://62.img.avito.st/640x480/3030703262.jpg My friend help me bought a allflex plate from Russia a week ago, but I was very angry when I found out that it was imitation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobdea Posted January 23, 2019 Report Share Posted January 23, 2019 8 minutes ago, daveo said: They all crack. Especially the light (non longitudinal cut) ones. Gross, all set with that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauleleven Posted January 23, 2019 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2019 (edited) 4 hours ago, Caswell said: My friend help me bought a allflex plate from Russia a week ago, but I was very angry when I found out that it was imitation. Probably what Marguc was selling in the years leading up to Iron--Rock, so you have an Iron-Rock! 4 hours ago, daveo said: They all crack. Especially the light (non longitudinal cut) ones. Not surprised they'd all have at least micro-fractures, any catastrophic failures? From the photos I've seen of Allflex being ridden, it mainly bends in the middle, maybe the spring ones ARE BETTER. Also HI DAVEO 5 hours ago, daveo said: No one seemed to care when everyone copied the original Apex plate. I've seen those carbon plates absolutely bent crazy like the allflex in the middle from 2014 Olympics SL race, think it was Anke Wohrer. HI DAVEO 5 hours ago, Caswell said: As a product manager, copying the design is plagiarism and laziness, I think it's not good. But design also needs to develop and compete, we only choose the best results. I don't think it's even plagiarism or copying, seeing they're both made in Slovenia and how nice Slovenians are, it might have been the exact CAD file from Allflex, made at a seperate location.... 5 hours ago, Caswell said: The false propaganda of iron rock products by Chinese channel dealers makes me sick. Yea, he's a douche, talked to him for about three minutes and can already tell not a great guy. Edited January 23, 2019 by pauleleven Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveo Posted January 23, 2019 Report Share Posted January 23, 2019 (edited) 28 minutes ago, pauleleven said: Probably what Marguc was selling in the years leading up to Iron--Rock, so you have an Iron-Rock! Not surprised they'd all have at least micro-fractures, any catastrophic failures? From the photos I've seen of Allflex being ridden, it mainly bends in the middle, maybe the spring ones ARE BETTER. Also HI DAVEO Original Apex plate being the Austrian APEX or the Canadian APEX that makes Gecko? I've heard from @slaposthat the Austrian Apex suspension plate is the best out of 4-5 that he tested. HI DAVEO Sorry I meant the Apex JJA one from Loonieland. Not my brethren from Austria. I actually didn't know that Austrian Apex made plates! @slapos is always on top of that stuff. Not sure about complete failures, only little cracks. I think they're trying to remedy it. Hiiiiiiiiii Edited January 23, 2019 by daveo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapos Posted January 23, 2019 Report Share Posted January 23, 2019 Austrian Apex did make the plates a while back. I think they have stopped since some. What I actually have is the Apex X plate which is canadian made. I indeed rode a few full iso plates and Apex X is the best that I rode, since it doesnt completely kill the feedback loop from the board. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveo Posted January 23, 2019 Report Share Posted January 23, 2019 That's my whole goal. Kill the feedback haha. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Kirk Posted January 23, 2019 Report Share Posted January 23, 2019 This is very interesting stuff. I have a patent on a road bicycle suspension system that was produced for a number of years. The company I worked for decided to ante up for the patent (the cost to get the patent is very high) just to discourage others from going down the same path but never had the intention bringing litigation against others they felt infringed on the patent. The problem is that you have to have deep enough pockets to chase down the guys that rip you off and this can be massively expensive. In our case there wasn't enough money to sue others but just having the patent no doubt discouraged others from going down that road. After the bike in question went out of production other much larger companies tweaked the idea just a bit and used it. The tiny company I worked for would have gotten their butt kicked going up against Specialized so they just moved on. I wish the system of patents and protection were better. I wish the Allflex guy could do more than publicly shame the copy cat but realistically that's all he can do without spending loads to money and time all the while having the copy cat putting copies onto the market stealing market share and making the public perception waters muddier. Tough stuff. dave 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveo Posted January 23, 2019 Report Share Posted January 23, 2019 May you live in interesting times... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bucky Posted January 23, 2019 Report Share Posted January 23, 2019 This had to hurt - Podium from Rogla 2019 PGS 3 Kesslers, 2 IronRocks, 1 Allflex spring 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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