Jack M Posted January 23, 2019 Report Share Posted January 23, 2019 On 1/22/2019 at 11:24 AM, pauleleven said: Iron-Rock comes out with a nice website in SIX languages, including the three Asian countries who also happen to be the richest (and most ignorant) consumers. Chinese version is completely correct in translation, which means there's a cabal of international distributors working together to market the brand. It blows my mind that anyone would think it's worthwhile to go to such efforts to steal IP in such a microscopic market. On 1/22/2019 at 12:04 PM, Corey said: I question the use of aluminum for a plate that's designed to flex repeatedly I have been told that they do indeed crack eventually, and that racers are going through multiple plates a season. On 1/22/2019 at 1:24 PM, pauleleven said: I always thought what makes Allflex so special is the property of the alloy, what looks like an Allflex, weighs like an Allflex, just won't feel and perform like an Allflex. That may not be a bad thing, just different. 14 hours ago, daveo said: No one seemed to care when everyone copied the original Apex plate. Maybe not as blatantly, but preeeeetty much the same thing. There is a fine line between following the state of the art, and blatantly copying another product. This leaps over that line. Same with the shameless knock off Gecko plates being marketed by Soul snowboards. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauleleven Posted January 23, 2019 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2019 52 minutes ago, Jack M said: It blows my mind that anyone would think it's worthwhile to go to such efforts to steal IP in such a microscopic market. You won't believe how big the market is in Asian countries, carving vs freestyle is close to 50/50, and within carving you have newbies buying 1000USD softie boards like BC, Ogasaka, Gray and such, someone going hardboot might go directly to 951, oxess AND Allflex. There is a lot of money to be earned in an affluent and uneducated market, I'm sure @daveo (hi daveo) can attest to this about the Japanese market. Prices of the Asian softie carving brands are steadily rising every year, while improvement and better material is seldom seen, this is what prompted the creation of Horizon Snowboards (which has since disappeared, they charged 1100USD for boards for one season), softie carving boards from Nobile (900 Euros IN EUROPE, only much more expensive in China). When I was at ISPO Beijing, any random snowboard company based in China or Japan has at least a few hammerhead softie carving boards, it is absolutely a craze and everyone tries to get a slice of the pie, and the consumers are just absolutely eating it up..... Rant over 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonbordin Posted January 23, 2019 Report Share Posted January 23, 2019 Patents are like a nice sword mounted on the wall. Pretty to look at... can be sharp but ineffective as a defense unless someone who's trained to wield them (lawyers) picks them up. Also really poor at ranged defense (foreign countries don't always respect IP). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SunSurfer Posted January 23, 2019 Report Share Posted January 23, 2019 16 hours ago, daveo said: No one seemed to care when everyone copied the original Apex plate. Maybe not as blatantly, but preeeeetty much the same thing. The virus plate, all boiler plates, one from donek, a few more smaller companies also... All pretty much the same design. One sliding axle, one hinge, stiff plate on top, connected to ASIP (sorry, UPM) or 4x4 insert. @pauleleven yoooooooooo Because Benjamin Karl had already led the field with his sliding axle design. He was well ahead of the Apex composites design, which was kept under actual wraps until after the Vancouver Olympics, by which time the horse had well and truly bolted. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted January 23, 2019 Report Share Posted January 23, 2019 16 hours ago, Caswell said: It's a bit like the northwave 950 boots and the Mountain Slope Point 951 boots. Not really. Northwave gave up on producing the .950 a long time ago. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skategoat Posted January 23, 2019 Report Share Posted January 23, 2019 (edited) If I could set the historical record straight: A provisional patent was filed for the original Apex plate. Gerry Kavanaugh, Matthew Clarke (the original Apex Composites designers) and Jasey Jay Anderson were named as co-inventors. The plate was considerably different than Benny Karl's design which I have had the opportunity to examine. Whether it would have passed the "novel" test is unknown because I made the decision not to pursue a utility patent when I took over the company in 2010. I know this - Karl's design was simply unrideable by anyone but Benny himself. Many tried, many failed. I chose not to pursue the patent because of the costs which cannot be recouped in our business. There simply is not enough payback so spending $40 or 50k on a patent application makes no business sense. Furthermore, since our niche sport is spread world-wide, the cost would have easily doubled if European and Asian patents were filed. And quite frankly, the chances of me defending my patent in China or Russia were zero. After seeing the first few knock-offs of the Apex plate, I was confident that our technical edge would hold because I felt the copies got it wrong. First, adapting the plate to 4x4 pattern was a non-starter. With the axle behind the ball of the foot, any forward pressure caused the plate to roll forward and bow in the middle. Not a great idea. This was resolved by making the plates very thick and stiff. The effect of a too-stiff plate was that it made the board difficult to control, exactly like Benny Karl's steel monster. As someone who has been in All-flex's boots, I feel terrible for them. They came up with an innovative design only to be blatantly ripped off. By their own rider no less. There is zero innovation in the copycat plate. It is eroding into All-flex market share because Aco was choosy about his resellers and restricted supply. Many people wanted to sell All-flex but could not and the copycat presented a work-around. In my opinion, anyone who sells, distributes or buys the knock-off is party to the theft of intellectual property. Edited January 23, 2019 by skategoat 4 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonbordin Posted January 24, 2019 Report Share Posted January 24, 2019 38 minutes ago, skategoat said: In my opinion, anyone who sells, distributes or buys the knock-off is party to the theft of intellectual property. If patents aren't enforced via legal action they are nothing but shiny swords mounted on the wall. To attempt to hold the consumer accountable for companies not weilding their patent sword is poor taste indeed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted January 24, 2019 Report Share Posted January 24, 2019 1 hour ago, lonbordin said: If patents aren't enforced via legal action they are nothing but shiny swords mounted on the wall. To attempt to hold the consumer accountable for companies not weilding their patent sword is poor taste indeed. If the sword costs $40-50K, it may not be reasonable to expect one. Whether or not it is legally punishable, it is still theft. The consumer is once or twice removed from the actual theft, but they are still a party to it, if only in a moral, unactionable sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SunSurfer Posted January 24, 2019 Report Share Posted January 24, 2019 2 hours ago, skategoat said: ......After seeing the first few knock-offs of the Apex plate, I was confident that our technical edge would hold because I felt the copies got it wrong. First, adapting the plate to 4x4 pattern was a non-starter. With the axle behind the ball of the foot, any forward pressure caused the plate to roll forward and bow in the middle..... This key point about axle placement in relation to the rider's front foot binding position is not universally known. It should be. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonbordin Posted January 24, 2019 Report Share Posted January 24, 2019 (edited) 26 minutes ago, Jack M said: If the sword costs $40-50K, it may not be reasonable to expect one. Whether or not it is legally punishable, it is still theft. The consumer is once or twice removed from the actual theft, but they are still a party to it, if only in a moral, unactionable sense. So typical patent cases the judgment will include the fees for mounting the defense of the patent. We are a society based on laws... If one does not use what our very society is based upon let not one look down their nose at consumers that are completely unaware a theft has taken place. I would not knowingly buy from an IP thief but how would most even know... Edited January 24, 2019 by lonbordin Thanks for the monster plate 411... Won't buy those!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveo Posted January 24, 2019 Report Share Posted January 24, 2019 10 minutes ago, SunSurfer said: This key point about axle placement in relation to the rider's front foot binding position is not universally known. It should be. Thanks. Well this is what has made me question the current Apex X-Plate using Allflex inserts in particular. Makes me think the UPM version is 'better' because of this. The X-Plate using Allflex inserts does not 'free float' like an Allflex or Vistflex. It uses the 'old' method of sliding axle/fixed hinge axle, if you get me. Just like the other X-Plate variants. What do you think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueB Posted January 24, 2019 Report Share Posted January 24, 2019 (edited) Copying other's peoples work is not theft. It is not nice from the inventor's perspective, but it's what made the civilization progress. It was like that in art, warfare, medicine, architecture... everything... since the beginning of time. The current patent system (and pretty much all the corporate and trade laws) are formulated for the success and greed of big corporations and to the loss of a little guy. Did you ask yourself why it's practically imposible for a small compsny to pursue a patent, or infringement of it? Yup, because ultimately, the big sharks want to steal it and use it (or hide it if too good!). The copyrights should be removed all together, for benefit of the humanity. Back to Alflex, yeah it sucks, but it's also great. They sell a grossly overpriced product that doesn't last. The competition will keep their price in check and hopefully force everyone to come up with a more durable product. We all love our Coilers, Doneks and other modern brands, but we don't worry much of how many Kessler's inventions are being used/copied... Edited January 24, 2019 by BlueB 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveo Posted January 24, 2019 Report Share Posted January 24, 2019 (edited) I'm with @BlueB on this. But I spoke with the Iron Rock guy last night and it was really strange. I asked him for a price because I was curious on pricing. He said EUR800+shipping. Then he said but I don't believe you're from Australia. Then he asked me the time in Australia and questioned why I'm awake at 3.30am (I actually explained because my servers are free at night). Then he said I should buy Allflex instead. Then he told me to buy it from the Japanese distributor for EUR1600. Then he said he can't sell to me because he doesn't know who I am... It was the strangest thing ever. I suspect he is being pursued by the AllFlex team or other hired goons to make his life difficult or something and he's a bit paranoid about stuff. Edited January 24, 2019 by daveo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted January 24, 2019 Report Share Posted January 24, 2019 41 minutes ago, daveo said: Well this is what has made me question the current Apex X-Plate using Allflex inserts in particular. Makes me think the UPM version is 'better' because of this. The X-Plate using Allflex inserts does not 'free float' like an Allflex or Vistflex. It uses the 'old' method of sliding axle/fixed hinge axle, if you get me. Just like the other X-Plate variants. What do you think? The Apex X-Plate in UPM or Allflex mount flavors function the same*. The rear is a hinge, the front is a sliding hinge. I don't think one is better than the other, they just want to provide the options. *The X-Plate with Allflex mounts gives you the option of adding brackets in the middle of the plate that limit its vertical travel away from the board. That would result in a different ride. As for @BlueB's and @lonbordin's comments, I agree in the legal sense but disagree in the moral sense. That's very theoretical and subjective of me, and is just my opinion. I can't quite define IP theft, but I know it when I see it, and it turns me right the hell off, personally. I would never buy the knock-off Geckos or Allflexes on principle. A Coiler or Donek on the other hand, is not exactly ripping off a Kessler, because Coiler and Donek can't know the entire recipe for the secret sauce. They are following the state of the art, and they are using their expertise and intellect to produce their original interpretation of it. That's honorable, IMO. Now, if Iron Rock advances the state of the art with a plate that functions similarly to an Allflex but is made of a much more durable composite, that would be original, IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveo Posted January 24, 2019 Report Share Posted January 24, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, Jack M said: The Apex X-Plate in UPM or Allflex mount flavors function the same*. The rear is a hinge, the front is a sliding hinge. I don't think one is better than the other, they just want to provide the options. *The X-Plate with Allflex mounts gives you the option of adding brackets in the middle of the plate that limit its vertical travel away from the board. That would result in a different ride. Oh. I think I get it now. Edited January 24, 2019 by daveo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauleleven Posted January 24, 2019 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2019 5 hours ago, Jack M said: Now, if Iron Rock advances the state of the art with a plate that functions similarly to an Allflex but is made of a much more durable composite, that would be original, IMO. Russians made a composite version with circular and rectangular cuts Also, Allflex made the spring plate which eliminates the material bending in the middle by cutting it and adding a spring, that is quite a step forward from the existing one piece metal design, innovation! 2 hours ago, daveo said: Oh. I think I get it now. I don't get you daveo, I never will Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveo Posted January 24, 2019 Report Share Posted January 24, 2019 2 hours ago, pauleleven said: Russians made a composite version with circular and rectangular cuts Also, Allflex made the spring plate which eliminates the material bending in the middle by cutting it and adding a spring, that is quite a step forward from the existing one piece metal design, innovation! I don't get you daveo, I never will Nyet, you never will! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skategoat Posted January 24, 2019 Report Share Posted January 24, 2019 8 hours ago, BlueB said: The copyrights should be removed all together, for benefit of the humanity. Without patent protection, what would be the incentive to invent and innovate? Do you think James Watt, Thomas Edison and Nikolai Tesla toiled in their workshops for the benefit of humanity? The Industrial Age happened because of the patent system in Britain. The protection of one's intellectual property is a fundamental building block of our modern economy. Without it, the smartphone and the automobile you use every day would not exist. Without it, we would not be enjoying healthy lives into our 80s and 90s. Aco Sitar (All-flex), Hansjuerg Kessler, Fin Doyle - all filed patents for their inventions. Do you think they would have created their products if they didn't think their investments would be protected? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauleleven Posted January 24, 2019 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2019 45 minutes ago, skategoat said: Without patent protection, what would be the incentive to invent and innovate? Do you think James Watt, Thomas Edison and Nikolai Tesla toiled in their workshops for the benefit of humanity? The Industrial Age happened because of the patent system in Britain. The protection of one's intellectual property is a fundamental building block of our modern economy. Without it, the smartphone and the automobile you use every day would not exist. Without it, we would not be enjoying healthy lives into our 80s and 90s. precisely, looking at all developed countries there is always an emphisis on IP, which is at the core of significant economic growth in a global world today. Looking at China, the government tries to develop a system for IP but its not doing so well, however successful and sustainable companies like DJI and Huawei have strong IP holdings, whereas copycat companies almost never live long. However the average joe in China does not yet realize the importance of Intellectual Properties and a lot of the time doesn’t respect it. Alpine snowboarding is a small world, what Iron Rock is doing is just killing our sport from within, it its more or less a cash-grab, and I’m would not be surprised if there are a few asian players behind Iron Rock driving it to disturb the scene, not in a good way.... Here comes the Asian influence. 1 hour ago, daveo said: Nyet, you never will! Non ti comprendo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skategoat Posted January 24, 2019 Report Share Posted January 24, 2019 9 hours ago, daveo said: I'm with @BlueB on this. But I spoke with the Iron Rock guy last night and it was really strange. I asked him for a price because I was curious on pricing. He said EUR800+shipping. Then he said but I don't believe you're from Australia. Then he asked me the time in Australia and questioned why I'm awake at 3.30am (I actually explained because my servers are free at night). Then he said I should buy Allflex instead. Then he told me to buy it from the Japanese distributor for EUR1600. Then he said he can't sell to me because he doesn't know who I am... It was the strangest thing ever. I suspect he is being pursued by the AllFlex team or other hired goons to make his life difficult or something and he's a bit paranoid about stuff. Your experience tells me that the distributors are not properly vetted. Huge mistake. I had nothing but positive experiences with JJD as our Korean distributor. He now resells All-flex. I would highly recommend contacting JS Lee at: www.jjdstore.kr. Absolute prince of a guy and the straightest shooter you would ever want to meet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauleleven Posted January 24, 2019 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2019 25 minutes ago, skategoat said: Your experience tells me that the distributors are not properly vetted. Huge mistake. I had nothing but positive experiences with JJD as our Korean distributor. He now resells All-flex. I would highly recommend contacting JS Lee at: www.jjdstore.kr. Absolute prince of a guy and the straightest shooter you would ever want to meet. I wouldn’t be surprised that the Asian distributors for Iron Rock is pushing Europe to not sell to Asia, in order to maximize the profit (priced at 1.4k+ usd) in the three asian countries. It would also seem that Iron rock’s branding has many asian contributors, literally no other company in alpine snowboarding has six languages, AND THEY ARE ALL CORRECTLY TRANSLATED! The international cabal, if you will... The Chinese distributor is a complete tool of a person Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted January 24, 2019 Report Share Posted January 24, 2019 10 hours ago, Jack M said: As for @BlueB's and @lonbordin's comments, I agree in the legal sense but disagree in the moral sense Just to clarify, I do not agree that the patent system needs to disappear nor that IP theft is good for society. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonbordin Posted January 24, 2019 Report Share Posted January 24, 2019 1 hour ago, Jack M said: Just to clarify, I do not agree that the patent system needs to disappear nor that IP theft is good for society. @Jack M you are misstating my opinion. I am not in favor of IP theft nor have I ever avowed the position that the system needs to disappear. I am for most of the current patent system. (The state of foreign IP enforcement mechanisms is really poor.) To participate in the system the IP holder has responsibilities. If the IP holder does not exercise their rights and responsibilities in the system then the system fails. It is not the consumers' responsibility to make sure the items they purchase are free from IP theft. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted January 24, 2019 Report Share Posted January 24, 2019 16 minutes ago, lonbordin said: you are misstating my opinion. I didn't mean to reference you. BlueB seemed to say that the patent system needs to disappear and that IP theft is good for society. I disagree. 16 minutes ago, lonbordin said: It is not the consumers' responsibility to make sure the items they purchase are free from IP theft. Nobody is saying that. Henry (and I) are saying that if you willfully purchase something that you know is IP theft, then you are party to that theft. Whether that's legally punishable is another matter, but it's morally wrong, IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveo Posted January 24, 2019 Report Share Posted January 24, 2019 Hmm it would have been nice for them to at least 'improve' on it in some way. Anyone know the story behind Iron Rock and Allflex? I'd love to know it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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