Plate's effect on board?

[Beckmann AG]

9 hours ago, Rob Stevens said:

Hi Erik. 

 Is intentionally creating different edge angles along the length of the board during a turn “pedalling”? Is it the same, in your mind, as “twisting”?

 For my clarity, I’m thinking you don’t necessarily mean that. Pedalling could be more a focus on one foot pushing or pulling independently, while twisting is... just that.

 Do you see benefits to using either in situations outside alpine carving or the race course? I know we’ve talked about this before, but I find myself doing both.

 Hers an example: carving through rough conditions, I might meet a bump with an edge angle suitable for where I just was, but not for where I am now. To compensate, I’ll back off the forward half of the boards edge angle just a bit, so it doesn’t hook uphill. With that crisis averted, the board remains on its line, so I don’t have to back off the rear half’s edge angle. The above is sometimes accompanied by relaxing pressure on the front foot, where back foot pressure increases as a side effect.

 Bear in mind all the above is in a low angle, wide stance. 

 Thanks for reading and apologies for taking this thread into the weeds from its original intent. 

Rob,

That's how I was taking it in this context. Pedaling being more or less synonymous with twisting, primarily due to the negation of twisting input being the more obvious effect of the earlier plates.

Tend to think of the shift in front back weight distribution as being in the realm of pressure management, rather than edge angle manipulation, though they often overlap.

Though again, in this context, the newer plate designs can influence how disruptive/effective that weight distribution may be, in terms of controlling the bend in the board.

As a side note, I think it's vitally important to understand the existence of, and the possible effects of pedaling or twisting, as that understanding will have an influence on whether or not a rider can meet or exceed their riding goals. Each of which will be different than that of other riders, and most certainly different than say, mine.

As to your scenario:

"Where you come from is gone, where you thought you were going to was never there, and where you are is no good unless you can get away from it." -F O'C.

 If you accept that relative edge angle plays a part in the path a board will follow across/through the snow, then it stands to reason that if one end of the board has more or less than the other, that path will not 'run true'. In your instance, if the board moves past the point of contact in a 'spiral', the effect will be vaguely similar to what happens to a bullet passing through a rifle barrel, except in this case, the bullet is stationary, and the rifle is in motion.  

If that's what you're after, then fine, but to my way of thinking, you're making more work for yourself. On the other hand, this might be your best option, given equipment choice and configuration. And it may also provide the experience you want from riding.

My approach would be to assume the bump will influence net edge angle, plot a course that will provide an appropriate and approximate line of departure, then remove excess 'arc' in the board by way of absorption. Excess being anything left over from what the board will readily track through.  Also worth noting that if my upper body is already moving in the direction I want to go pre-bump, it's mostly a matter of not allowing the bump to influence that momentum vector. Again, by way of absorption/separation/letting the board to the work etc.

Obviously easier with steeper angles, as it's more difficult to flex and extend at lower stance angles without simultaneously affecting relative edge angle.

Clear?

 

Edited January 19, 2019 by Beckmann AG
Cake mess Never been

[lowrider]

Not sure where you can ride pure ice but it would be fun to try it well padded of course. Where i ride ice is usually fallowed by sluff or machine groomed granular. So the chance of maintaining a consistent approach style aside is not really possible. Those variables are only one of the many conditions that a plate is useful to help maintain control.

[Beckmann AG]

8 hours ago, Jack M said:

Snowboarders don't have another foot to put down, and have half the available edge length.  This is why we don't race any faster than GS anymore.

That's a wonderfully archaic understanding of how skiing works. A little like saying a motorcycle with sidecar has an advantage over one without on account of track width.

If a snowboarder has to put a foot down, there's clearly something wrong with their approach. 

Also  a non-sequitur. One of the reasons for the format change was the attempt to make competitions more telegenic/spectator friendly. Snowboard SuperG, while loads of fun, is neither.

8 hours ago, Jack M said:

Yes, I suppose if your boots/bindings/setup/technique are perfect, you might achieve the same edge hold on a smooth surface.  But scant few people in the world spend the time to achieve that perfection, or even have the wherewithal.  The rest of us can opt for a plate, and get further than we ever would otherwise.

'Proper' (not necessarily perfect) equipment setup is prevalent on the WC circuit, and the implementation of the principles involved isn't exactly dark magic. I can describe them in about 15 minutes. The work itself takes a few hours. The athlete learning how to make use of the modified equipment takes longer. Neither is out of the range of the average snowboarder or skier, if they care to do something about it.  

A plate is certainly a valid option for those less inclined to do the work to be more inclined, and that's certainly acceptable for a recreational pursuit.

 

Edited January 19, 2019 by Beckmann AG
Watson/Crick

[Beckmann AG]

6 hours ago, Corey said:

Why do the vast majority of WC racers use plates?

Because they have proven value for that application? 

6 hours ago, Corey said:

No human interacting with an irregular surface will be as clean and tidy as a guitar string vibrating freely.

Clearly you've never chased a particularly skilled cyclist on a hardtail through the woods. It's performance art. The good kind. Comes about when the rider in question can figure out how to work in harmony with, rather than in opposition to his/her environment.

Good idea though, to believe that nobody can do something you can't conceive of doing yourself.

6 hours ago, Corey said:

We can't explain why plates work, but empirical evidence suggests there is a clear benefit on the race course.

I think I did a few hours ago, you just don't care for the explanation. And yes, obviously.

6 hours ago, Corey said:

To blankly dismiss the technology is a bit like claiming the earth is flat because no one has proven that it's perfectly spherical.

I've not dismissed the technology, just the fanboy response to the use of said technology, along with the specious claims that plates are a de facto suspension system. 

 

[Beckmann AG]

1 hour ago, Rob Stevens said:

How about this... If your feet aren’t moving much, relative to your centre when loaded on edge, destabilizing inputs (call it terrain input “error”) only need to be comparatively small when you look at what blows it might take to throw you off at the knees, or further up the chain.

Thinking that way, a couple of centimetres of “suspension travel” via the plate is all you need to stabilize the foot in this limited range of displacement.

Small absorption’s for an area of small movements.

I'm going to assume you've been around long enough to see the (re)evolution of suspension systems in mtn biking.

As you may recall, the original Rockshox Mag 1 was barely adequate, and saw some competition in competition from both the Proflex elastomer stem, as well as the Allsop Flexstem used extensively by  Team Ritchey/Frischknecht et al.

Not much travel in any of those, just slightly better than nothing. 

The funny thing about the painfully gradual development of bicycle suspension forks is that all of the work had already been done with motorcycles ten years previous. 

The funny thing about snowboarding, and the lack of suspension development, is that all of the analogous work has already been done in both bicycles and motorcycles.

And yet here we are, touting the advantages of what amounts to a Proflex stem as an effective suspension system.

 

  

[daveo]

1 hour ago, Beckmann AG said:

That's a wonderfully archaic understanding of how skiing works. A little like saying a motorcycle with sidecar has an advantage over one without on account of track width.

Weight distribution? 

1 hour ago, Beckmann AG said:

A plate is certainly a valid option for those less inclined to do the work to be more inclined, and that's certainly acceptable for a recreational pursuit.

I reckon there are about 40 Olympic medallists and a few hundred world cup podiomists who might disagree with you on that.

[daveo]

5 hours ago, Beckmann AG said:

I'm of the position that none of them are.

Geckos convert vertical movement into primarily heat. They're most like suspension in the practical sense when combined with lower extremities. 

Lower extremities are like the springs geckos are like the shock absorbers. But hey I'm no mechanic or engineer. Just a thought... 

Starting to think you might enjoy watching debating in the Olympics more than snowboarding. Watching that one person who is obviously wrong to down in a heroic blaze of glory... But it doesn't make him right, he's still wrong. Haha! 

Edited January 19, 2019 by daveo

[lowrider]

I would advocate that all lazy snowboarders should try a thing called a plate that makes riding in less than ideal conditions less fatiguing and provides better contact with the snow than riding without one. I can't claim it adds suspension because some don't think it does i can't claim it makes peddling more difficult because peddling isn't a thing but for whatever it does or doesn't do  those who have tried one claim it did something . We just haven't invented a word that correctly describes it.  

[daveo]

15 minutes ago, lowrider said:

We just haven't invented a word that correctly describes it.  

I think we should come up with a word. 

Makes the terrain more "platable". Haha

[Lurch]

13 minutes ago, lowrider said:

We just haven't invented a word that correctly describes it.  

How about UNICORN? UNecessary Input Control RegulatioN? 

I awlays wanted to ride one...

[Corey]

3 hours ago, Beckmann AG said:

Good idea though, to believe that nobody can do something you can't conceive of doing yourself.

Ok, I'm out. Best of luck. 

[daveo]

2 hours ago, Lurch said:

How about UNICORN? UNecessary Input Control RegulatioN? 

I awlays wanted to ride one...

Like ... how do you just come up with that? It's almost like you had it planned.

[Lurch]

I was just hoping we could get back to the OP, rather than pedalling a plate to Beckmann. He seems resolute, so move on.

[SunSurfer]

@rjnakata If you read the whole thread what you wanted to know is probably there, just with a whole lot of other stuff around it. In the end to "know it" for yourself you may have to do what a number of people were trying to persuade Beckmann to do.

Try one for yourself. See whether the experience is to your taste, for they are devices that polarise opinion.

 

[rjnakata]

8 hours ago, SunSurfer said:

Try one for yourself. See whether the experience is to your taste, for they are devices that polarise opinion.

I gave my impressions earlier in this thread (first page) of my limited time on a plate. I like it. and would like to explore it more.

My question was: when using a (suspended) plate should one change the board's design to maximize performance?  Let's start with the board's design rider weight.

[lowrider]

1 hour ago, rjnakata said:

 

My question was: when using a (suspended) plate should one change the board's design to maximize performance?  Let's start with the board's design rider weight.

I think the best way to evaluate the performance of a plate would be to use it on a known quantity ie: a board you are comfortable with and in less than ideal conditions. When i mention comfortable i am referring to all factors stance, boot fit, toe and heel lift etc. The ability to remove the plate and return to your normal set up for comparison would also be helpful. I believe most board builders could tell you about the build changes they incorporate into their custom boards. I am a confirmed believer that a plate will enhance the characteristics of any board in less than ideal conditions but will be optimized with a custom built board. If you are like me and like to tinker around with your setup JJA is the only plate that provides the most options to do that. If your intention is to achieve a podium finish get a rabbit foot too.

[pokkis]

I would only add to that to test plate more than one or two runs, rather day or two to get familiar.

[Lurch]

 @SunSurfer Apology if previous post read harshly, not my intent. Agree there is some great info buried in this thread. I get that ragging on Erik B will often get an amusing retort wrapped up with some useful info. I always read (but not always understand)  his posts because they usually force me to think. Which can be useful. Or infuriating. Sometimes both... until I 'discover' WTF he was talking about for myself, then it's useful. Or infuriating.....Anyways, you get the picture..

I'm fortunate not to routinely encounter the conditions that seem to make the plate (Unicorn) excel, nor do I have trouble riding to last chair, so for me it is more a question of how would a plate improve my experience. Based on Jack and Lowriders  input, if I was forced to run ice coast boilerplate or race Nevin, I'd be rocking a $2k Allflex Springer without a second thought, if only to stop me wimpering in horror. That said, the gear geek in me sooooo wants to try one, especially if it magically gives me the ability to crank out a smokin'  toeside like Jacks previous post or hand our resident Olympic champ a lesson in the gates. Neither seems likely. Continue the info!

@daveo yes I have a complex algorithm that can read your mind and automatically responds with the word "Unicorn' once you reach one thousand posts. Won't be long now.....

Edited January 19, 2019 by Lurch
In Daveo communicado

[Speed cat]

On 1/14/2019 at 4:50 PM, Jack M said:

Testing is going well... loving this FA Auxiliary jacket (@Speed cat) too... pic by @trailertrash

 

Looking sexy AF in that jacket

[Randy Kight]

So Jack...your latest thoughts?  Donek AF still easiest to benefit from vs the others, or...?

[Jack M]

On 1/18/2019 at 8:19 PM, Beckmann AG said:

That's a wonderfully archaic understanding of how skiing works. (and more)

That's just rude.  Anyone with eyeballs can see that good skiers and ski racers are carving both skis.  And if one loses grip, they have the other one.  Snowboarders don't have those abilities.

All I wanted was for you to try one.  No idea why you would prefer instead to get defensive and condescending.

5 hours ago, Randy Kight said:

So Jack...your latest thoughts?  Donek AF still easiest to benefit from vs the others, or...?

I'll be writing a review soon, but here's the TLDR version.  All IMHO, tested on Kessler 168s, and from a freecarving perspective:

Best all around - Apex X-Plate

Best value - Donek AF

Most riding comfort - Vistflex with both ends floating, but heavy. Apex close second

Racer's choice - Allflex.  Stiff and damp.

[daveo]

3 hours ago, Jack M said:

That's just rude.  Anyone with eyeballs can see that good skiers and ski racers are carving both skis.  And if one loses grip, they have the other one.  Snowboarders don't have those abilities.

All I wanted was for you to try one.  No idea why you would prefer instead to get defensive and condescending.

I'll be writing a review soon, but here's the TLDR version.  All IMHO, tested on Kessler 168s, and from a freecarving perspective:

Best all around - Apex X-Plate

Best value - Donek AF

Most riding comfort - Vistflex with both ends floating, but heavy. Apex close second

Racer's choice - Allflex.  Stiff and damp.

The Plate King strikes again

[Beckmann AG]

6 hours ago, Jack M said:

That's just rude.  Anyone with eyeballs can see that good skiers and ski racers are carving both skis.  And if one loses grip, they have the other one.  Snowboarders don't have those abilities.

All I wanted was for you to try one.  No idea why you would prefer instead to get defensive and condescending.

Anyone with eyeballs has the capacity to discern that above a certain level of skiing proficiency, the inside foot serves an integral function to that of the outside foot, and that function is rarely the safety valve/spare it was many years ago.  Viewing each ski as independent platform is a good way to remain an intermediate.

Both skis and snowboards can be controlled when they break ‘positive’ adhesion without 'stepping off', but a lot of that depends on how a rider opts to control the platform in the first place, and much of that is dependent on the set relationship of the rider to the board.  If the plan is to hammer the edge and bounce repeatedly, without regard to how things can come unglued, sooner or later it’s going pear-shaped.

Plate notwithstanding.

Further, it’s being able to manipulate the platform in the terrain beyond solid adhesion that defines the athlete.

Throughout this thread, I’ve offered explanations of how things might work/do work, along with the suggestion that some of what appears ‘mysterious’ can be understood by studying like circumstances or mechanism.

Those thoughts have been met with incredulity/exasperation, overly simplistic/dismissive counter arguments, and what appears to be a willful misreading of my position.

That’s hardly politesse. If my tone comes across as a little brisk, it shouldn't come as a surprise.

Edited January 21, 2019 by Beckmann AG

[David Kirk]

7 hours ago, Jack M said:

That's just rude.  Anyone with eyeballs can see that good skiers and ski racers are carving both skis.  And if one loses grip, they have the other one.  Snowboarders don't have those abilities.

All I wanted was for you to try one.  No idea why you would prefer instead to get defensive and condescending.

I'll be writing a review soon, but here's the TLDR version.  All IMHO, tested on Kessler 168s, and from a freecarving perspective:

Best all around - Apex X-Plate

Best value - Donek AF

Most riding comfort - Vistflex with both ends floating, but heavy. Apex close second

Racer's choice - Allflex.  Stiff and damp.

I hope you'll be writing about your feelings on the Allflex compared to the others - I'm very much interested in your thoughts.

dave

[daveo]

@Jack M glad you tested both ends floating on the heavyflex. Interested to hear your thoughts on the difference between sliding/sliding and fixed/sliding.