Hard boot binding comparison

[philw]

Now there's no "Bomber" whom we rightly had to respect, I think I can ask this question....   There are multiple variants of the standard F2 binding out there, but has anyone any reviews/ experience/ comparative information on them? I like to avoid riding stuff which is more than a decade old, so I ought to buy some more bindings and I'm wondering which will work best. The ones I know of are:

1. Standard F2 Titanium bindings, same as I've used for the last 20 years and which work flawlessly for me. They come in two sizes of which I use the smaller. You can get blue anodized ones thi season, it seems, as well as the standard black.
2. The CNC version of the above. These are pretty and maybe I should get some to put on my bookshelves, but they're not commonly used in races I think so perhaps they have "stiffness" problems as per some other machined bindings. They're likely heavier and more expensive than (1).
3. The Virus "Power Lock" stuff... they look similar in principle to the F2, but apparently are "machined from a solid block" of whatever so perhaps are stiffer? I'm not really looking for that, and I'm kind of suspicious of Virus as they make those extremely narrow boards which isn't my thing. These come with a baseplate - is that mandatory? How high does that put the boot over the board? I kind of like simple and low, hence F2 Ti Race not F2 Titanflex.
4. Kessler's F2 variant. These have white handles and no step-in variant, but otherwise look like stock F2 bindings. Is that what they are? These come in 3 sizes, suggesting they're not just a re-brand of the F2s. 

Are there any more, perhaps South-East Asian variants I should look at?

I'm just interested in any actual users of these and similar bindings... what are the main characteristics and what do I need to know which isn't obvious?....

[jburk]

There's also the SG variant of the F2 binding, I know @yamifumi uses them.  Most obvious difference from the F2 original is that all the pozidrive hardware has been replaced by 4mm hex bolts.  They do seem pricey, though.

[BlueB]

And then you have the Carve RS version, that has same balls and blocks, but plastic base. They are laterally softer and I prefer them for freeriding. 

Paging @charliechocolate he's got the CNC version too. 

[yamifumi]

36 minutes ago, jburk said:

There's also the SG variant of the F2 binding, I know @yamifumi uses them.  Most obvious difference from the F2 original is that all the pozidrive hardware has been replaced by 4mm hex bolts.  They do seem pricey, though.

I wrote extensive review on the SG binding.... forgot where I wrote it. Let me dig that up if I can....

but I have been really happy with it. Downside is the cost. 

[philw]

Ohh, the SG jobbies do look sexy! I'd be very interested in a review.

[yamifumi]

Haha i found it. Had to dig through search engine but here is my take and I made a thread on “binding equipment review” for SG binding:

 

It functions very very similar to the F2 but has more advantage than F2:

- All the nut/bolt utilize 4mm hex drive and it is easier to manage than Pozi drive that F2 uses. Also less likeliness of stripping it with hex drive.

- It comes with 2 lift blocks unlike F2's just 1. Also it comes with multiple cant wedges so the set up is pretty adjustable for lift/cant.

- Changing lift/cant is easier on SG bindings. In F2, you have to slide the toe or heel block al the way out to access screws to change lift/cant but in SG, the bolts are accessible from under the bindings without moving the toe/heel blocks. All you have to do is remove the binding from the board.

- SG is stiffer than F2 unless you buy the CNC version of F2 (I have no experience with CNC version of F2) but not overly stiff.

One downside is the cost, SG is more expensive than F2. It cost as much as Bomber TD3 SW.  it was hefty price with shipping but I wanted to have a binding that I can change the block easily as I wanted to try different set ups (cant, lift, stance, set back). I tried with F2 and it was just a nightmare. I can carry very small L-hexagonal key in my pocket and adjust small amount while on the mountain but there is no way I can carry pozi drive in my pocket. To me, it was worth extra $$ and try diffrent set ups that I really liked. And the rubber on the F2 is not so good and the metal part that holds the bolts for toe/heel block dug into the board ( >_<).

 

I liked Bomber TD3 SW but it was difficult to center my new boots with SW. I've had burton (ibex), F2, bomber (TD3 SW, TD2) and SG, and so far I like the SG the best. I have 2 sets of SG binding on 2 different board

I have experience with F2, ibex, TD2, SG, td3sw too. I felt ibex and f2 was not rigid enough. (I have not tried f2 cnc binding so that is my next bucket list). Td3 sw was good, i really liked it. The rigidity was good but not too much like td2. But downside for me was that it was hard to change the cant/lift and there is infinite amount of them in td3 as it has much finer adjustment. I have mondo 26.5 boots and i had to slip heel block on SW. i also had hard time centering the boot on binding. I like SG binding because it had finer adjustment for boot centering and simple to change the lift and cants. 

It all comes down to personal taste in the end!!

***The binding is not centered***

Edited April 8, 2018 by yamifumi

[charliechocolate]

The F2 CNC's have much less lateral flex while being not that much more heavy than the standard F2's.  I mounted them on a burly SG SL and hardly noticed the weight difference between standard and CNC. They're great if stiff and (relatively) light is what you're after but consider that they cost around twice as much as the standard bindings.

[yamifumi]

There is also Japanese binding that some olympians use. It is called “ACT gear”. AJ Muss, Masaki Shiba, Julie Zogg, Tomoka Takeuchi, and Schoch brothers use it.

I really wanted to try it but when I contacted them, they said they do not do sales outside of Japan. I also do not know how much lift you can do so I have not pulled the trigger to buy it yet. I know that not all shims come with binding and need to buy extra shims to do toe and heel lift from what I read on their manual.

All the athletes uses the model called “Neo Glide”

**pic taken from AJ muss’s instagram picture**

Edited April 8, 2018 by yamifumi

[jburk]

Does the SG binding allow for finer cant adjustments than the F2s?  F2 cant wedges are 4*, the fact that F2 doesn’t offer smaller wedges for finer adjustments (like 1* or 1.5*) is my only real complaint with them. 

I know I can go the 3D printing route, but really, how hard would it be for F2?

[yamifumi]

15 minutes ago, jburk said:

Does the SG binding allow for finer cant adjustments than the F2s?

Nope. SG is same as F2. Thankfully for me, I just need very slight outer cant on my boot.

[Lurch]

@yamifumi  No rush, but next time you are  messing with your SGs or F2s, could you do me a huge favor and tell me if there is any adjustment left to center the boot once the binding is adjusted to accept approx 300mm BSL (M29) boot?  First world problem for us Sasquatch, but my TD3s are maxed out on the std base plates and I'm using the center disk to get some offset adjustment ( the longer base plates are unobtanium at present). Thanks.

[ursle]

The F2 is held down with a metal plate, and the SG is held down with a phoenic or plastic plate and the SG is stiffer, show me.

The F2 needs the toe or heel block to be moved to adjust the binding, while on the board.

The SG binding neds to be removed from the board to be adjusted, and that's easier, show me.

 

The F2 weighs less, cost's less, is easier to adjust, is stiffer, parts are readily available, it comes with two lifts, one for the toe, one for the heel, several cants, has a ridge lock system for lifts and cants, and is indestructable, but the SG is better, show me.

 

I'm from Missouri.

[Neil Gendzwill]

F2 comes with a 2-piece lift block set that lets you lift the heel or toe of only one boot. Maybe Imafumi meant SG has 2 such sets?

Edited April 8, 2018 by Neil Gendzwill

[Buell]

Thank for the review yamifumi. I have not tried the SGs, but they look nice. I assume they are made by F2? It is effectively the same binding with some small tweaks.

Is the center disk on the SGs plastic or coated metal?

For on the snow adjustments, I actually prefer a pozidrive because it clears snow better. An allen key just presses it deeper into the allen key slot. I carry a small folding pozidrive tool in my pocket that works fine. Both options tend to strip slowly over time but I have a lot of hours on F2s and have never stripped a screw.

Looking at your photos yamifumi, I can see it being a pain to adjust F2 cant/lift. Due to my boot size, my toe and heel blocks only need to be moved a little to get to the screws that hold the cant/lift down, so it is a quick procedure. I rarely make any adjustments at this point anyway.

You can buy an extra set of cant/lift shims for the F2s.

[jburk]

1 hour ago, ursle said:

The F2 needs the toe or heel block to be moved to adjust the binding, while on the board.

The SG binding neds to be removed from the board to be adjusted, and that's easier, show me.

With the F2, the toe or heel blocks need to be moved to the end of their travel to expose the bolt heads. This also means the you lose the bail spacing, and may have to readjust it once you reassemble to get it back to exactly the same tightness when closing the tie bail.

Not that big a deal if you’re doing it on a workbench with a cordless drill, but doing this with a hand tool while on the slope to experiment while riding is a major PITA. With my boot size, the blocks are located where I have to move them through almost all of their travel, it can easily take 10 minutes to make a change.

Looks like with the SGs, you unmount the binding, flip it over to expose the bolt heads, remove the bolt, swap out the lift or cant wedge, reassemble and remount, while retaining the toe to heel spacing. 

I’m pretty much dialed in for toe and heel lift, but was planning on 3D printing some 1* and 1.5* cant wedges. Riding no cant at the moment, but preferred somewhere around 1.5 outward on the front when I ride TD3s. So I know I have at least three more rounds of tweaking in my future. 

@yamifumi: are the lift kits and cant wedges interchangeable between SG and F2?

Edited April 8, 2018 by jburk
Added last para about cant adj

[yamifumi]

2 hours ago, ursle said:

The F2 is held down with a metal plate, and the SG is held down with a phoenic or plastic plate and the SG is stiffer, show me.

The F2 needs the toe or heel block to be moved to adjust the binding, while on the board.

The SG binding neds to be removed from the board to be adjusted, and that's easier, show me.

 

The F2 weighs less, cost's less, is easier to adjust, is stiffer, parts are readily available, it comes with two lifts, one for the toe, one for the heel, several cants, has a ridge lock system for lifts and cants, and is indestructable, but the SG is better, show me.

 

I'm from Missouri.

- SG is held down with thick metal plate that is painted black. Read the description on the SG’s website and do not assume from the picture: CNC milled Al7075 plate and disk. The F2’s disk is thin piece of metal.

- Have you ever tried to adjust the F2’s cant and lift system with pozi drive? I have done it many times when I was trying dofferent set up and it was night mare. Also, the toe bail tightness is not the same anymore because you move the bail. It is easier to take the bindings off. You do not have to take off the binding to change the distance of toe and heel bail.

- as far as i know, F2 DID NOT come with 2 sets of lifts. Just 1 when I bought it brand new. SG comes with 2 sets of lift (so you can do both toe and heel lift) and cant wedges. 

- parts can be readily available from SG but may take extra shipping time.

 

wish i could show it to you in person....

[yamifumi]

1 hour ago, Buell said:

Thank for the review yamifumi. I have not tried the SGs, but they look nice. I assume they are made by F2? It is effectively the same binding with some small tweaks.

Is the center disk on the SGs plastic or coated metal?

They are made by SG, not by F2.

center disk is metal: CNC milled Al7075 plate and disk. Much sturdier than F2’s thin metal disk.

1 hour ago, Buell said:

 

For on the snow adjustments, I actually prefer a pozidrive because it clears snow better. An allen key just presses it deeper into the allen key slot. I carry a small folding pozidrive tool in my pocket that works fine. Both options tend to strip slowly over time but I have a lot of hours on F2s and have never stripped a screw.

Looking at your photos yamifumi, I can see it being a pain to adjust F2 cant/lift. Due to my boot size, my toe and heel blocks only need to be moved a little to get to the screws that hold the cant/lift down, so it is a quick procedure. I rarely make any adjustments at this point anyway.

I just carry the smallest allen key to clear snow/ice which only takes 1min. If it is super cold, does not matter if it is pozi or hex. It will be hard to adjust anyways. I do agree that any will degrade over time. For me, it is the convenience as I use 4mm for my boots too.

haha you are lucky because I had to adjust so much to see those screws on F2! 

[yamifumi]

2 hours ago, Neil Gendzwill said:

F2 comes with a 2-piece lift block set that lets you lift the heel or toe of only one boot. Maybe Imafumi meant SG has 2 such sets?

Yes SG comes with 2 sets of lift so that you can do both toe and heel lift but F2 comes with 1 set and need to buy one more from donek or yyz

[yamifumi]

1 hour ago, jburk said:

 

@yamifumi: are the lift kits and cant wedges interchangeable between SG and F2?

That I am not sure as I don't have the F2 anymore. From how it looks, it maybe. They both have ridge lock system.

 

Also, you can changes size on SG binding and able to fit bigger size boots for those with big feet if needed. I am not sure F2 can change sizes??

[yamifumi]

14 hours ago, Lurch said:

@yamifumi  No rush, but next time you are  messing with your SGs or F2s, could you do me a huge favor and tell me if there is any adjustment left to center the boot once the binding is adjusted to accept approx 300mm BSL (M29) boot?  First world problem for us Sasquatch, but my TD3s are maxed out on the std base plates and I'm using the center disk to get some offset adjustment ( the longer base plates are unobtanium at present). Thanks.

My friend has 28.5 mondo size boots and my SG binding (smaller sized binding) was at the max. But they do have bigger size binding to fit M29 boots.

[daveo]

@yamifumi Those SG bindings really do look super good! Thanks for all the details regarding them!

[Lurch]

2 hours ago, yamifumi said:

My friend has 28.5 mondo size boots and my SG binding (smaller sized binding) was at the max. But they do have bigger size binding to fit M29 boots.

Thanks. The size chart on SG site seems to indicate the S can be modified into a  L (guessing its by flipping  the blocks) but still only says 300 for L which sounds about right if the S is maxed at M28.5.

[jburk]

2 minutes ago, Lurch said:

The size chart on SG site seems to indicate the S can be modified into a  L (guessing its by flipping  the blocks)

Looking at this photo, I'd guess that the blocks have two recesses for the hex bolt, and you shift the blocks inward or outward to switch between S and L; see how the toe piece has that empty cavity?  Betting this pic is of a binding set up as a Small.  Nice, it means that the base plate doesn't have to have 2 sets of holes drilled, like the newer F2 Ti Race already have.

[yamifumi]

@jburk, yeap that is completely true. I did not want to hi jack this thread so I put detailed instructions with pictures on the “equipment review” section: 

@Lurch I put the details on the “equipment review” section

[teach]

The Virus bindings look like they might be made by Phiokka. I'd add Phiokka to your list.