Two completely, totally self absorbed questions

[st_lupo]

Hi BOL!

I recognize I've got two wholely selfish questions here so I'm hoping you can cut me some slack.

1.) Around these parts there aren't exactly a lot of (if any?) instructors to teach carving.  I've read through all of the tech article here several times and a couple years ago I got some fantastic info from Beckmann among others that got me off to a great start.  I'm hoping that maybe some of y'all can give me some feedback on my technique as it stands today?  Basically the following link is a video from Friday when we had some pretty epic conditions at a nearby hill (Gaustablikk) and I was out on the Coiler NFC.  The riding is on the conservative side of how I normally ride (didn't want to f-up completely in front of the camera) but is definitely a typical example of my cruising technique when snow is heroish and I want to last all day.    I see I'm reaching for the snow a bit too eagerly on the front side turns but what I'm really hoping for is maybe some input on: a)Overall riding position (I think it might be a bit too upright, but I remember reading some posts about avoiding a stance that is ridiculously low "folded over like crumpled up tissue" I think was pretty close to the line that was used).  b)how to improve the transitions (if I remember correctly some of the ones in the video felt kinda wooden, whereas later in the day I had the sensation that I was getting a _little_ air at the start of the transition, which was cool but really unexpected) c)look at my butt, is this acceptable placement on the back side turns? d) how can I work at getting better inclination (I wanna wear out at least one set of pants per season)?  Is the secret to laydown carves just to set up an good initial carve (angulation/inclination) and then just "fall over"? d)I think I understand that weight distribution for/aft is a dynamic thing, but how does that effect transitions?  For example I think my transitions work best when I have my weight quite forward on the board, but... edge hold seems to be more powerful through the turn when I have my weight centered or event aft on the board.  But when I end a turn with my weight very far aft, the transition to the next turn feels really weak and ugly?

2.) I'm probably going to be making a trip back to the US in the summer and would love to pick up a new board (there is bugger all to choose from in Norway, and freight/import costs are a deal killer).  I love my Nirvana to pieces 172/(12m/14m), and my Silberpfeil is now my rockboard, but I want to change things up. I would really like to add something more agile and spastic that is still suited for hard snow trending to ice.  Narrow steep blacks with hard snow or blues with ice is what I want to tackle without skrensing.  That and $1000 is the absolute limit that I can spend without too much damage to my conscience.  I got to borrow a Swoard Extreme Carve 168 board this last week and enjoyed the completely different rhythm of the board.  When I got good inclination on it, it would really turn inside of my Coiler, had good edge hold and overall felt like a more agile board.  The downside was that I'm not ready to hop on the EC bandwagon and the width was way too wide (I still rode with my usual binding angles 65/55). The Donek MK on the other hand has me nearly convinced that it is exactly what I want, but the narrow width has me a bit freaked out (my boots are Mondo 29 RC-10s). This next board is going to be my last board in a looooooong time so I want to do what I can to assure that it is as excellent as the Coiler.  

Ok three questions.  Not two but three...  How do folks improve consistency?  Some days I feel like a god on the local hill, other days I want to go whimpering back home.  I know (generally) what I should do to have a good stance and most days everything falls in place and it feels natural.  But there are always days where I can go through my mental checklist of carving do's/do-not's and nothing works. Are there any tricks to mentally reset when things go til helvete?

[Corey]

Looking pretty good! Nice turns. 

Roll your hips a bit more towards the nose on heelside turns. Richard Knapp told me to drive that rear hip forward, which took an embarrassing amount of time to sink into my head before it clicked and felt natural. My lead knee ends up rolling sideways, like I was tipping a ski higher on edge without moving my hip. 

You don't look too low to me. If anything, you're a bit rigid - not moving up and down enough. Either start low and extend through the apex and then end low, or start high, compress, and end high. Keeping the knees moving prevents you from locking them, which is rough on non-perfect snow. 

At the risk of giving you way too much info to process (this is the internet ); Also start the turn on the nose to get it turning, then progressively slide it forward through the turn to end towards the tail. This pace changes with turn shapes. Big turns = slow feeding. SL turns = fast feeding. 

The hardest piece of advice: Ignore how close or far you are from the snow. Focus on technique and making everything clean, and all of a sudden the snow will brush your hand. Then your knee/hip. Then it's hitting them so hard you need to change your body position because the snow is in the way. Efforts to get lower just poison the process. 

Take one of these things at a time and practice it. Doing all at once is too much. 

That MK is a sweet board, and definitely different from the Nirvana! Talk to Donek about options to make an MK-like board that's wider. I had this exact discussion with Sean - it's possible. 

[Corey]

About drills to get back on top of a bad day, I go back to the 3 points I covered in the SES Intermediate clinic video:

1. Angulating the board 

 2. Pressing the sidewall of the board into the snow aggressively early in the turn

 3. Finishing the turns going across the fall line

[Beckmann AG]

 

You've got a respectable start.

 

I see I'm reaching for the snow a bit too eagerly on the front side turns but... 

Mostly a byproduct of your heelside turn mechanics. Will most likely resolve when you address that issue.

 a)Overall riding position (I think it might be a bit too upright, but I remember reading some posts about avoiding a stance that is ridiculously low "folded over like crumpled up tissue" I think was pretty close to the line that was used).

You’re fine for your present stage of development. Probably said ‘a wadded up kleenex’ or ‘discarded candy wrapper’.

Relax a little from the waist down, and be a little more compliant to the surface and the elasticity of the board.

  b)how to improve the transitions (if I remember correctly some of the ones in the video felt kinda wooden, whereas later in the day I had the sensation that I was getting a _little_ air at the start of the transition, which was cool but really unexpected)

 Finish carpentry involves a lighter hammer than framing. Quality transitions involve touch, more so than impact.(see below)

c)look at my butt, is this acceptable placement on the back side turns? 

No. This is the locus of most of your concerns.

HIngeing at the waist and sitting to the heel edge is one way to tip the board, but it’s not exactly optimal. 

It’s slow.

It’s relatively inaccurate.

The rotational movement involved doesn't make a positive contribution to the outcome.

Doing so overweights the front foot, and that limits the duration of the arc across the fall line, given that most of the bend is focused toward the leading end of the board, which means the tail cannot easily follow the arc created by the front.  After a fashion, the turn destabilizes, you bail to the toeside, and usually does so leading with the head and shoulders. This, in turn, leads to that dragging right hand, and a ‘weak’ posture that will not allow the rider to sustain a full bend of the board to the toeside. Which leads inevitably to a cascade of momentum on steeper terrain.

If you want to ‘sit’ into the heelside turn, at least make sure you have put the board on edge with your feet, and from a more ‘centered’ location.

d) how can I work at getting better inclination 

If you resolve the issue with your hindquarters, you will improve your ability to bend the board and also optimize timing of turn entry and turn exit, meanwhile exerting better control over your speed and use of area. In turn, you will have more ‘time’ to develop and work the bend in the board, which is reasonably important in terms of  inducing/reducing lean angle as you move downslope.

(I wanna wear out at least one set of pants per season) 

Weld spatter should do the trick.

Is the secret to laydown carves just to set up an good initial carve (angulation/inclination) and then just "fall over"?

No.

e)I think I understand that weight distribution for/aft is a dynamic thing, but how does that effect transitions?  For example I think my transitions work best when I have my weight quite forward on the board, but... edge hold seems to be more powerful through the turn when I have my weight centered or event aft on the board.  But when I end a turn with my weight very far aft, the transition to the next turn feels really weak and ugly?

Correct observations,  for the most part directly related to the postural issues mentioned previously.

 

How do folks improve consistency?  

Consistent results arise from consistent approach, and from many hours working on the really simple stuff, rather than developing dramatic flourish.

If you want to ride well fast, get really good at riding slow. In the absence of momentum, if you make the ‘wrong’ moves, you’ll tip over. That’s a reasonably binary feedback loop.

If you’re trying harder, and it’s not getting better, you’re doing it wrong.

Be observant of what you’re doing without thinking about it while in motion.

Spend more time on snow than on the internet.

 

But there are always days where I can go through my mental checklist of carving do's/do-not's and nothing works. 

Which suggests you need a different checklist.

Edited March 6, 2017 by Beckmann AG
none of your concern

[Neil Gendzwill]

You look mostly ok to me. It looks a bit like your shoulders are less square to the hill on toeside than heelside. You might want to try the drill of reaching for your front boot with your trailing hand on heelside and your lead hand on toeside. That will also help you get a little more flexed/dynamic up & down as Corey pointed out. I'm a pretty upright rider myself though so who am I to critocize. 

[Eric Brammer aka PSR]

5 hours ago, Beckmann AG said:

I think I understand that weight distribution for/aft is a dynamic thing, but how does that effect transitions?  For example I think my transitions work best when I have my weight quite forward on the board, but... edge hold seems to be more powerful through the turn when I have my weight centered or event aft on the board.  But when I end a turn with my weight very far aft, the transition to the next turn feels really weak and ugly?

Correct observations,  for the most part directly related to the postural issues mentioned previously.

Hardboots do more than 'just' amplify 'toe/heel edging' with a 'stiff boot'. Given angles at-the-feet above the mid-30's into the realm of Skwals, It is in the actuation of the Fore/Aft pressure that Hardshells win the Game.  So, in the segments of a given turn, you may put edge and/or down-or-upwards pressure into a hardboot system, and get Direct response, something that Softboots must rely on straps and highbacks {and the lean/shape/anchoring-with-a-strap/rotational angle of..} to accomplish, as an Exoskeleton to the boot's weaknesses.

So, we in Hardshells tend towards high angles, because we CAN. We also go to ever-skinnier, higher-cambered boards, because we CAN. But, in the Instructional realm, there's this ugly GAP of understanding of using fore-aft movement to get a better turn going. It STOPS at the outer range of a highback's contours and rotational abilities, and perhaps, even the forward lean available. So, then, somehow, "the Transition" gets lost in Translation, and what ought to be obvious and low-effort becomes... Complicated. Or-- 'weak and ugly'.

So, it's this simple. Phase the arc you want into 7-to-9 'arc sections of a nice "C", or, negative 'C',for Left or right turns. Turn length in hand-claps, at Your discretion, I suppose.

Start your turn with a high edge angle, but loose and 'low' (lots of 'soft knee/soft ankle flex). Use the Front foot first, 2/3rds of your balance there, for two hand-claps.

Then Press, as you edge (increase edge as you feel you can, please. but in degrees of lean/poise, a bit at a time. Stay INSIDE the pendulum's arc, but Don't tip IN unless to purposely over-do-it or wipe-out!), and as edging grips, use BOTH FEET, for 3-6 hand-claps, going from downhill to Across-the-hill.

As you Exit this Turn, Pressure builds to the rear foot [to about 2/3 or 3/4 bias, to that back foot]. Let it, BUT, DO NOT let your HIPS nor Shoulders be Behind that REAR FOOT. Instead, Relax, move the knees, hips, and upper torso FORWARDS (this is Exactly 'why' you want a heel lift at the rear foot! otherwise, this is Difficult to do, which explains why duck-footer's  "quack" at turn's end), and start thinking of the Next edge.The upper torso should, with level shoulders, be "reaching Up+ Forwards at the point of changing  the edge. This is a Rear Foot Pressure move of 1-2 hand-claps long, ending with a solid, fluid slight extension, and Ends back at "Simple", but on the front foot, placed, softly-but-deliberately into that next set of turns....

 

Edited March 6, 2017 by Eric Brammer aka PSR

[Tanglefoot]

St Lupo, I think your fundamental problem was to attempt to snowboard in Telemark. This is a geographical issue rather than a technical one.

[Bobby Buggs]

I like the waive at the finish 

[st_lupo]

Wow, thanks Corey, Beckmann, Neil and Eric!  This is exactly what I love about carving and BOL in particular!

On 3/5/2017 at 1:42 AM, corey_dyck said:

Looking pretty good! Nice turns. 

<1>Roll your hips a bit more towards the nose on heelside turns. Richard Knapp told me to drive that rear hip forward, which took an embarrassing amount of time to sink into my head before it clicked and felt natural. My lead knee ends up rolling sideways, like I was tipping a ski higher on edge without moving my hip. 

...

<2>At the risk of giving you way too much info to process (this is the internet ); Also start the turn on the nose to get it turning, then progressively slide it forward through the turn to end towards the tail. This pace changes with turn shapes. Big turns = slow feeding. SL turns = fast feeding. 

<3>The hardest piece of advice: Ignore how close or far you are from the snow. Focus on technique and making everything clean, and all of a sudden the snow will brush your hand. Then your knee/hip. Then it's hitting them so hard you need to change your body position because the snow is in the way. Efforts to get lower just poison the process. 

Take one of these things at a time and practice it. Doing all at once is too much. 

That MK is a sweet board, and definitely different from the Nirvana! Talk to Donek about options to make an MK-like board that's wider. I had this exact discussion with Sean - it's possible. 

1) This motion, is it like twisting my hips around the board's vertical axis so that my leading hip  comes back and into the hill, and the trailing hip rotates forward?  

2) All information is greatly appreciated as it helps me with the larger perspective.  Not everything makes sense all at once, but as I progress the more arcane points start making sense.

3)Yeah, that's hard.

On 3/6/2017 at 3:50 AM, Beckmann AG said:

 

You've got a respectable start.

 

I see I'm reaching for the snow a bit too eagerly on the front side turns but... 

Mostly a byproduct of your heelside turn mechanics. Will most likely resolve when you address that issue.

 a)Overall riding position (I think it might be a bit too upright, but I remember reading some posts about avoiding a stance that is ridiculously low "folded over like crumpled up tissue" I think was pretty close to the line that was used).

<4>You’re fine for your present stage of development. Probably said ‘a wadded up kleenex’ or ‘discarded candy wrapper’.

Relax a little from the waist down, and be a little more compliant to the surface and the elasticity of the board.

  b)how to improve the transitions (if I remember correctly some of the ones in the video felt kinda wooden, whereas later in the day I had the sensation that I was getting a _little_ air at the start of the transition, which was cool but really unexpected)

 Finish carpentry involves a lighter hammer than framing. Quality transitions involve touch, more so than impact.(see below)

c)look at my butt, is this acceptable placement on the back side turns? 

No. This is the locus of most of your concerns.

<5> HIngeing at the waist and sitting to the heel edge is one way to tip the board, but it’s not exactly optimal. 

It’s slow.

It’s relatively inaccurate.

The rotational movement involved doesn't make a positive contribution to the outcome.

<6>Doing so overweights the front foot, and that limits the duration of the arc across the fall line, given that most of the bend is focused toward the leading end of the board, which means the tail cannot easily follow the arc created by the front.  After a fashion, the turn destabilizes, you bail to the toeside, and usually does so leading with the head and shoulders. This, in turn, leads to that dragging right hand, and a ‘weak’ posture that will not allow the rider to sustain a full bend of the board to the toeside. Which leads inevitably to a cascade of momentum on steeper terrain.

<7>If you want to ‘sit’ into the heelside turn, at least make sure you have put the board on edge with your feet, and from a more ‘centered’ location.

d) how can I work at getting better inclination 

If you resolve the issue with your hindquarters, you will improve your ability to bend the board and also optimize timing of turn entry and turn exit, meanwhile exerting better control over your speed and use of area. In turn, you will have more ‘time’ to develop and work the bend in the board, which is reasonably important in terms of  inducing/reducing lean angle as you move downslope.

(I wanna wear out at least one set of pants per season) 

Weld spatter should do the trick.

Is the secret to laydown carves just to set up an good initial carve (angulation/inclination) and then just "fall over"?

<8>No.

e)I think I understand that weight distribution for/aft is a dynamic thing, but how does that effect transitions?  For example I think my transitions work best when I have my weight quite forward on the board, but... edge hold seems to be more powerful through the turn when I have my weight centered or event aft on the board.  But when I end a turn with my weight very far aft, the transition to the next turn feels really weak and ugly?

Correct observations,  for the most part directly related to the postural issues mentioned previously.

 

How do folks improve consistency?  

Consistent results arise from consistent approach, and from many hours working on the really simple stuff, rather than developing dramatic flourish.

If you want to ride well fast, get really good at riding slow. In the absence of momentum, if you make the ‘wrong’ moves, you’ll tip over. That’s a reasonably binary feedback loop.

If you’re trying harder, and it’s not getting better, you’re doing it wrong.

Be observant of what you’re doing without thinking about it while in motion.

<9>Spend more time on snow than on the internet.

 

But there are always days where I can go through my mental checklist of carving do's/do-not's and nothing works. 

Which suggests you need a different checklist.

4.)wadded up kleenex it was, to be sure.

5.) Is this implying that I am suffering from toilet butt and hanging my bullocks over the heel-side of my turn, or is it not toilet butt but that it is generally a no-no to bend forward at the waist (even if the direction is towards the nose of the board)? Is an upright posture from the waist up what I should be after?

6.)This is why you're the interpreter of maladies! For the times when things fall apart, this is bang-on!  Reading further on your website guidelines for setting up bindings, am I right in thinking that forward biased weight favors agility at the expense of edge-hold, while back-biased weight favors edge-hold at the expense of agility,  _and_ that is the reason that turns are initiated with a forward weight  bias and finished with a back biased weight distribution (sorry if this was obvious to everyone else it just never clicked until now)?

7)Any tips for this?  Not really sure how to achieve this?

8)Bummer, no free lunches...

9)Amen to that, but work and family can be damned inconvenient sometimes 

 

On 3/6/2017 at 5:16 AM, Neil Gendzwill said:

<10>You look mostly ok to me. It looks a bit like your shoulders are less square to the hill on toeside than heelside. You might want to try the drill of reaching for your front boot with your trailing hand on heelside and your lead hand on toeside. That will also help you get a little more flexed/dynamic up & down as Corey pointed out. I'm a pretty upright rider myself though so who am I to critocize. 

10)Drills it is tomorrow!

On 3/6/2017 at 7:57 AM, Eric Brammer aka PSR said:

Hardboots do more than 'just' amplify 'toe/heel edging' with a 'stiff boot'. Given angles at-the-feet above the mid-30's into the realm of Skwals, It is in the actuation of the Fore/Aft pressure that Hardshells win the Game.  So, in the segments of a given turn, you may put edge and/or down-or-upwards pressure into a hardboot system, and get Direct response, something that Softboots must rely on straps and highbacks {and the lean/shape/anchoring-with-a-strap/rotational angle of..} to accomplish, as an Exoskeleton to the boot's weaknesses.

So, we in Hardshells tend towards high angles, because we CAN. We also go to ever-skinnier, higher-cambered boards, because we CAN. But, in the Instructional realm, there's this ugly GAP of understanding of using fore-aft movement to get a better turn going. It STOPS at the outer range of a highback's contours and rotational abilities, and perhaps, even the forward lean available. So, then, somehow, "the Transition" gets lost in Translation, and what ought to be obvious and low-effort becomes... Complicated. Or-- 'weak and ugly'.

<11> So, it's this simple. Phase the arc you want into 7-to-9 'arc sections of a nice "C", or, negative 'C',for Left or right turns. Turn length in hand-claps, at Your discretion, I suppose.

Start your turn with a high edge angle, but loose and 'low' (lots of 'soft knee/soft ankle flex). Use the Front foot first, 2/3rds of your balance there, for two hand-claps.

Then Press, as you edge (increase edge as you feel you can, please. but in degrees of lean/poise, a bit at a time. Stay INSIDE the pendulum's arc, but Don't tip IN unless to purposely over-do-it or wipe-out!), and as edging grips, use BOTH FEET, for 3-6 hand-claps, going from downhill to Across-the-hill.

As you Exit this Turn, Pressure builds to the rear foot [to about 2/3 or 3/4 bias, to that back foot]. Let it, BUT, DO NOT let your HIPS nor Shoulders be Behind that REAR FOOT. Instead, Relax, move the knees, hips, and upper torso FORWARDS (this is Exactly 'why' you want a heel lift at the rear foot! otherwise, this is Difficult to do, which explains why duck-footer's  "quack" at turn's end), and start thinking of the Next edge.The upper torso should, with level shoulders, be "reaching Up+ Forwards at the point of changing  the edge. This is a Rear Foot Pressure move of 1-2 hand-claps long, ending with a solid, fluid slight extension, and Ends back at "Simple", but on the front foot, placed, softly-but-deliberately into that next set of turns....

 

11)This and 10 is what I'm going to drill on tomorrow.  

 

Postscript:  I guess what I'll be focusing on in the near-term is repeating the reaching for the boot cuff drills to get body stacking better (10) and shifting from fwd weight to backward weight through the turn (2), (11).  I also had a few emails with Sean at Donek around the MK, and I'm a bit unsure about ordering an MK-ish board but wider.  I'll try running with narrower angles on my Coiler (similar to what I would need on the MK) this weekend just to see how it feels.  

Again, Thanks for the input its really appreciated!

[Corey]

59 minutes ago, st_lupo said:

1) This motion, is it like twisting my hips around the board's vertical axis so that my leading hip  comes back and into the hill, and the trailing hip rotates forward?  

Rotate the hips so you could pee on the nose of the board.  ;)  Look at Neil's avatar further up in this thread for a good example. 

Richard did a great demonstration of this in person (not the peeing part), which I'll try to type out:  Get in your normal heelside turn position, with your lead hand supporting your weight on a coffee table, couch, whatever.  Now, rotate your whole torso (hips and shoulders together) around a line running through your spine, so you face more towards the nose.  To do this, you push that rear hip forward.  Your lead shin will rotate sideways a bit, tipping the board up higher.

Wow, I hope that made sense. 

[najserrot]

I can say it's a big difference from your older videos.

I cant comment techniquewise as i'm still figuring Things out myself. But i too was thinking of getting an MK as we do get bulletproof ice every once in a while. But I have a rev SL which is a tight turning Board. Great on the steeps and ice but I can't ride this thing for long as it just drains me of energy. It just wants to turn turn turn. I cant do cruise mode like on a nirvana on the steeps =( On a Bright note, short slopes dont feel so short no more but hopping to gain more stamina during the off Seasons so i have an excuse for an MK.

[Eric Brammer aka PSR]

2 hours ago, corey_dyck said:

Rotate the hips so you could pee on the nose of the board.  ;) 

A very sexist comment! But, at least, better than Seoane's solution (refer to 'Critical Condition')...

[Beckmann AG]

5 hours ago, st_lupo said:

5.) Is this implying that I am suffering from toilet butt and hanging my bullocks over the heel-side of my turn, or is it not toilet butt but that it is generally a no-no to bend forward at the waist (even if the direction is towards the nose of the board)? Is an upright posture from the waist up what I should be after?

Yes, kinda like Bond in Casino Royale.  You want to be moderate in cantilevering your upper body in any particular direction, particularly when you're trying to determine the needs more so than the wants.

 

Quote

6.) ...am I right in thinking that forward biased weight favors agility at the expense of edge-hold, while back-biased weight favors edge-hold at the expense of agility...

Not necessarily. The information on the setup page is to determine a baseline, and as such, you're trying to find a setback where the board responds in a neutral, balanced manner with minimal input. Put another way, you don't want the board doing something when you're doing nothing.

...and_ that is the reason that turns are initiated with a forward weight  bias and finished with a back biased weight distribution?

Well, mine generally aren't, though many like to do it that way.

Further I should have expounded a bit on this point:

(st_lupo wrote:) "I think I understand that weight distribution for/aft is a dynamic thing, but how does that effect transitions?  For example I think my transitions work best when I have my weight quite forward on the board, but... edge hold seems to be more powerful through the turn when I have my weight centered or event aft on the board."

 If you find that you have to heave yourself forward to start the turn and then haul yourself back to finish it, you’re either on the wrong board for your size/application, or you’re interface is out of whack.

Not that you can’t, or shouldn’t, as circumstances will arise where you’ll need to. Rather, you shouldn’t have to at this particular stage of your development.

Ideally, you'll be moving right along with the platform, and any fore-aft movement should not be readily apparent to the outside observer.

Quote

7)If you want to ‘sit’ into the heelside turn, at least make sure you have put the board on edge with your feet, and from a more ‘centered’ location.Any tips for this?  Not really sure how to achieve this?

Stand in your boots, on the board, on the carpet, evenly weighted, on the middle of both feet (arch center).

Tension the biceps femoris of your rear leg, not so much as to bend the knee, just enough to feel the action.

Then evert your rear foot such that the padding of your properly fitted liner, (the one you molded yourself in your own kitchen with one of many DIY recipes available on the internet) fills the groove between your Achilles tendon and your medial melleolus.

(This is essentially counter-steering, but more on that later).

Do that a few times until it feels familiar. At which point you might notice that it moves the contact point from the center of your feet toward the heels. And that you've done so from an upright position. And that your weight remains more or less centered. 

That should be enough to move you from the end of your toeside arc to the start of the heelside arc without any twerking. If so, the clouds should part and clarity ensue along the curve of binding energy.

However, if your feet have collapsed in your boots for lack of support, or your bindings are set up wonky such that there is no useful range of motion in the ankular region, then it may not work as described. But don't let that deter you.

 

Edited March 8, 2017 by Beckmann AG

[Eric Brammer aka PSR]

1 hour ago, Beckmann AG said:

Not that you can’t, or shouldn’t, as circumstances will arise where you’ll need to. Rather, you shouldn’t have to at this particular stage of your development.

Ideally, you'll be moving right along with the platform, and any fore-aft movement should not be readily apparent to the outside observer.

Here, I differ. While I agree that being in a 'centered' position through a turn is the calmest move, there is this to consider... As your body moves down the fall-line, your board criss-crosses it. at certain points in the board's arc path, you are either ahead of it (usually early in my turns, but..), near the board's mid-point (preferably mid-arc, as the board is aiming Down the Fall-line), and then you are a bit behind the board as it crosses to, maybe, finish the turn. Thus, the (for most of us) half-circle we cut on edge becomes a dance of both edge-input and pressure control as we interact with the board  vs. our body mass, as the two take two disparate paths down and across the hill. So, IF You think You're "Centered" ALL the TIME, you're not... You are calmer, less dynamic, in your inputs and outcomes. And as such, are you able to adjust when the variables change?

 Ask Ripturns... Or Shane... Or LJ... Or Yetz... Or Mac C...or Schwippert.  How often have you gone more than 360* thru a pure carve? And, on both edges? How, then, did you manage to keep your body mass over the board? It's dynamic, not conservative, as movement patterns go. So, that said, I'm NOT COMPENSATING, I'm REACHING for more Energy, thru the turn, more control in advance of what I think might occur. This is why, while I love the look, and can on occasion do them, I'm not an EC/post-Vitelli turn fan. It's not balanced, it skids, it has a horrible recovery time 'tween turns. You expend your energy to create a Flow, then you push on how deep the turn can be, and figure out how to carry the Energy forwards. Using both feet, and doing so with a bias of differential, at select moments within the turn, is key to maintaining dynamic balance.  I'll leave it at that, for now. After all, it ain't like the stuff I type always gets interpreted as I intend, but, then again, the things I once told PSIA/AASI took whole Decades to get internalized, while I and our sport, got Old...

Edited March 8, 2017 by Eric Brammer aka PSR

[Neil Gendzwill]

Off-topic, but I have yet to see video evidence of a 360 carve that looks good to me, ie where any speed is carried throughout and the rider doesn't crank on the tail to slowly get through the last bit. What CMC is doing in that video upthread is about as good as I've seen but is still not a true 360 carve IMO. 

[Eric Brammer aka PSR]

Neil, I agree on that. CMC was, um, Lazy, by bending the board's tail on a flat. But, I've seen quite a few good riders pull full 360's, and, as such, crossed my own tracks the first time on my Joyride 153 back in '92 [in softboots in Elfgen Tongue bindings, btw;  and at the top of Lower Wardance, not on a 'flat'!] The Nitro EFT Asym, then Burton PJ, Aggression Stealth, Lacroix Eagle, and my '94 Rad-Air Souls, all could nail that kind of turn; But needed a particular terrain of 'flat bowl' or side-slope to make it work. Years since then, I've gotten to where, in the right conditions (but still using, usually, a dual-fall-line of lesser pitch) I could do "3's" on my Tankers, Reto's, Madds 158 or BX, or an SL Prior or Volkl, and, often on my old "94" Gordo Sym/Asym 151. All these boards had tight sidecuts in relation to length, bent at the middle, but contained energy in the flex, and had adequate edge-hold. Width was NOT an issue, nor was tail "thrust", but nose stiffness had to be at certain percentage, and 'not-too-soft'. In and of riders, Mac, Scwhipp, and Shane Mahoney (a very early Madds Racer, and Instructor) could follow me anywhere down the hill, so, in chasing, I'd try to out-loop them. All three can better me, and Shane (on my Tanker 200!) has done a 540 clean arc, right around me after I did 400+* on the Madds BX, at Sunapee! CMC on a Madds 158 (and I have no clue if this is findable online?!) once got filmed going around, cleanly, a group of Stratton's Ski Instructors parked in the Middle of Drifter trail, with their collective heads looking like Owls tracking the noises from mice. T'was hilarious to be there, nevermind watch again on video! (Calling Bob Lawliss!!). In any case, the use of 'projectional anticipation', and energy conservation are two of four keys to doing looped carves. I promote these as possible fundamentals, because, they can be introduced very early on, then built upon to use later, not just in Carving, but also in spin and flip rotational moves. It ain't just a two-dimensional sport, folks, it's got more going on than just that!

 

[Beckmann AG]

8 hours ago, Eric Brammer aka PSR said:

Here, I differ.

By all means do.  But first take the time to read in/for context. 

9 hours ago, Beckmann AG said:

(Re: 'elaborate' fore/aft pressure application:

Not that you can’t, or shouldn’t, as circumstances will arise where you’ll need to. Rather, you shouldn’t have to at this particular stage of your development.

The rider in question is learning to walk and chew gum. He doesn't need to be twisting up a batch of balloon animals at the same time.

[GeoffV]

7 hours ago, Neil Gendzwill said:

Off-topic, but I have yet to see video evidence of a 360 carve that looks good to me, ie where any speed is carried throughout and the rider doesn't crank on the tail to slowly get through the last bit. What CMC is doing in that video upthread is about as good as I've seen but is still not a true 360 carve IMO. 

I recall seeing video of Joerg that was at Aspen that was really smooth, he came out of it an kept on going. That was the first time I saw a clean 360.  We also had a 360 carve contest at our ECES I think in 2010 or 2012. The Carve Father  aka Ronnie Knuckles, Bruce, and Paul Kobbe pulled 360s, but those weren't as smooth as Joergs, still fun to watch. There is video of it some where.

[Eric Brammer aka PSR]

11 hours ago, Beckmann AG said:

By all means do.  But first take the time to read in/for context. 

The rider in question is learning to walk and chew gum. He doesn't need to be twisting up a batch of balloon animals at the same time.

Yeah, so 'in the context', what we type, with our images-in-the-brain, may end up being totally 'something else' for another. I get where you were thinking you and the 'asker' were in the 'evolution timeline'.  I do teach differently, as I try very hard to cover the differential of 'static+centered' edging vs. "dynamic edging" within that first three-or-so-days on snow. Why? Because most balance errors are not just 'edge input', or rotary input, but those things And whether the rider can 'initiate' by Moving forwards to Start the Next turn. In-The-Day, I saw a bunch of lame 'forwards motion' moves, but very few addressed 'foot pressure', or 'Hip movement'. So, since '91-92, I have worked that, and torsional twist between the feet, into my 'Falling Leaf' + First Linked Turns ideals. Thus, My students have those ideas to build upon, and, are not 'stuck' after basic carves, trying to get into a dynamic carve mode. I go 'back' to basics, re-introduce old moves, and then add+blend, thus using what should've been 'familiar' ground to leap to the next level{s}. It ends up being something that 'takes' in muscle memory, and that awkward 'whole NEW skill and Move' is now, a continuation, but as a more aggressive move, of what has already been learned.  And, at this point, I'm pulling a "Neville", and clamming up, because I've just told YOU, too dang much...

[Eric Brammer aka PSR]

To my previous post; if you know of how to 'read between the lines', you will get to this point; a point where Both Erik/Eric 's agree, and, often we do.  To that end, I often see his or my students used in 'Poised Photos' of correct technique [True is the same Jack or Corey] . So, it does come down to the teaching progression; and That Develops Around the Student's abilities (or, it ought to?!), but I have always tried not to leave 'the gaps' in my progressions, but, rather, at the least, touch upon the dynamics of body position, even before they become "really' important. This lets both the student and teacher use a common ground from which to build new timing and skill exercises upon. You CANNOT do THAT, here, Online. Here, you Guess and Hope your insight has some 'ground upon which to walk', and go on from there, hopefully forwards. I've encountered this often enough, on www.freecarve.com, where my best intentions fell flat. I didn't have the likes of Erik ,nor Corey, nor Jack to 'bounce ideas against' there very often. Here, the best recourse can be found by way of Ocham's Razor; sluff off the extraneous and then follow the purer path. In and of that, I had to giggle, as I found quite a few of MY students in 'classic pics' of Form from Jack! Hey, maybe I got it right, here+there? Yes, I did. And, no, I don't doubt myself (well, my typing sucks--Lysdeksia fracks with your legit..) , but I need to 'leave room' for other, wiser, voices. If, anyone, ever, has a query about what I post, just ask in a PM. I know when "humble" is required. I'll buy ya a beer later for it, just ask T.B.!

[Beckmann AG]

20 hours ago, Eric Brammer aka PSR said:

And, at this point, I'm pulling a "Neville", and clamming up, because I've just told YOU, too dang much...

No worries. Am well beyond such antics.

 

[st_lupo]

Ok I finally got up to the hill the other night to try some of this stuff out. The snow was really nice but really soft as it's been cold here lately and we've had a good amount of new snow. It was only a short night so I wanted to keep things simple and only concentrate on just a few things:

#1: focus on the drills of reaching for the boot cuffs during the turn

#2:focus on rotating my back hip forward

#3: observe how my weight shifted fore/aft on the board during the turn (but don't try to actively control it).

The first I'll admit is that #2 flew right out the window (I'll try to be a bit more mindful about that during tonight's ride though). As far as doing the drills about reaching for the cuffs... that was an eye opener eventually. I'm 6'1" with pretty long legs so in order to touch the cuffs of my boots I was pretty hunkered down, and it felt a bit "forced". It also initially felt like it was pushing my weight distribution more to the back of the board, this was mitigated by putting in one click of forward lean on my front boot.  I can guarantee I wasn't as upright and rigid on the board. The first few turns went "ok". They carved and it was obvious how the drill forced my to change my body angulation and got the board a little higher on edge. My balance however felt weaker and I could tell that my upper body rotation just kept lagging behind the board. I kept plugging away at it and tried to focus on getting my head and shoulders squared up to the board again.  Eventually that finally started to settle in and on one particular transition to toe side the board came around really hard and my back knee wound up dragging through the snow.  (Probably a bit because of have a deeper than usual bend in my knees, and a little about better inclination on the board?).  I eventually got to the point where I stayed squared up to the nose of the board.  Just to compare, I took some back to back runs where I was doing the boot-cuff drills and some where I was riding more like the video from Gaustablikk.  It felt like there was a definite improvement to the turn radius and that my usual runs out here started feeling a little bit wider.  However, while I started feeling pretty comfortable and aggressive on the toe-side turns, probably only a half to 2/3s of the heel side turns felt "natural" for some reason.  For the runs where things did seem to fell into place it was a really nice feeling, I think I just need to be more mindful of anticpating where my body should be going when diving into the turns.

Needless to say it was a pretty "experimental" night with numerous falls and wipeouts.  I think alot of the discussions above about the forward/aft weight distribution really helped with analysing the cause of some of the crashes.  Most of my blowouts were typically heel-side, usually after already establishing a carve but then swinging my leading knee further into the heel in an attempt to squeeze just a little more out of the turn.  Also on occasion it felt like some of my toe-side carves were "drifting" (as in the fast and furious car type drifts).  Not really skidding or blowing out, just kind of weird.  The tracks on the snow looked ok, but the seat of the pants feel was like something wasn't tracking 100%?

It will be fun to get back up tonight and keep plugging away at it!

[Eric Brammer aka PSR]

1 hour ago, st_lupo said:

Most of my blowouts were typically heel-side, usually after already establishing a carve but then swinging my leading knee further into the heel in an attempt to squeeze just a little more out of the turn.  Also on occasion it felt like some of my toe-side carves were "drifting" (as in the fast and furious car type drifts).  Not really skidding or blowing out, just kind of weird.

So, good stuff, on your own.. With the overall 'uncomfortable' new body positioning, I am guessing that your angulation is just a bit 'behind' the moves into the turns. Be across the board sooner if possible. Your stature, given your overall height, means that you (in anticipating the new turn) ought to do the "front boot grab" just a bit Ahead of the boot, but let that move 'settle' just behind said front boot once the edge has bent into the arc-of-the-turn.

On heelsides, quit focusing on that front knee after the edge 'hooks', but rather then Pull Your Toes UP, and then, if a 'squeeze' is needed to tighten the arc, roll the Back Knee in, forwards, allowing the hip to turn just-a-tad, while de-cambering the board. 

On toeside, if you feel a 'drift' in edge contact, there are three things to think of. First, did you actually get onto 'the tip-toes' or are you only pressing the ball of the foot? What are your shins pressing against? Are they putting pressure into the boot cuff? If 'Yes' that is good. Now, are your shins then creating a 'deeper' edge? If yes, this is good. Lastly, did you let the rear hip 'twist' enough to let the rear knee/shin/toe drive deeper into the edge? All of this occurs within 3 heartbeats, so, use an internal timer that is set well into the tenths-of-second for getting to just what-happened-when, or, video yourself, play back on "SLOW".. 

Edited March 10, 2017 by Eric Brammer aka PSR

[st_lupo]

Awesome night; hard snow, locked in turns, starting to wear out the knees in my pants.  Stoked!

[Corey]