(Relative) Newbie doesn't like ice

[Bonus boy]

Hi all-

I don't want to slow you down with detailed n00b questions that might only be relevant to me. 

But I've been searching and reading, and I haven't seen a discussion about this particular question: 

Might hardboot style riding suit me better than the soft boot style that I've been trying so far? 

- Learning to snowboard in my forties, *having fun* but...

- The frequent icy conditions on the east coast take a lot of the fun out of it for me

- I'm never going to be a rail-riding half-pipe master no matter what I ride

- Those carved turns in alpine/hardboot videos look *beautiful* to me

- When caught out on pavement on my mountain bike, I can't stand going straight and always end up "carving" my way down hills

Maybe I should embrace the carve (and the edges) and switch styles? I know glare ice isn't going to be fun on any board, but when things get a bit that way, maybe this will feel better to me? When the conditions are great, it will all be fun. That is the easy part. 

In any event, many thanks for the beautiful videos! 

[Beckmann AG]

1 hour ago, iCamera said:

I know glare ice isn't going to be fun on any board

You may think that, but you don't yet know that.  A great deal of riding well on hard snow is how you make use of the equipment, and there are quite a few on hardboots that would probably do better on softboots when the going gets firm.

1 hour ago, iCamera said:

Might hardboot style riding suit me better than the soft boot style that I've been trying so far?

That would depend a little on how you'd define your 'soft boot style',  and what you think 'hardboot style' involves.

1 hour ago, iCamera said:

on my mountain bike

Hardtail? Double squish? Niner, 7.5, 26? Fatty, mid fat, or classic?  Etc, etc? Are you happy with it, and what kind of terrain do you gravitate toward?

[SunSurfer]

Watching a hard boot snowboarder carve beautiful turns is a danger to your mental health. Deciding you'd like to learn to do that is even more dangerous to your sanity and your wallet. You'll start hangin' out in places like Bomberonline, where the crazies are. I was once like you. Turn and run now, before the addiction to the edge bites. To follow this path is the way to Maddness.

[powdahbonz]

icamera-

If you're willing to give it a go, Beckmann AG would be the man to work with. There are many riders here in the northeast that are willing to offer input, advice and to ride with.

[Algunderfoot]

7 hours ago, SunSurfer said:

Watching a hard boot snowboarder carve beautiful turns is a danger to your mental health. Deciding you'd like to learn to do that is even more dangerous to your sanity and your wallet. You'll start hangin' out in places like Bomberonline, where the crazies are. I was once like you. Turn and run now, before the addiction to the edge bites. To follow this path is the way to Maddness.

LOL! "Take the Blue Pill, and wake up comfy in your bed, like nothing happened here,Take the Red Pill and see just how deep an addiction can go!"

[TVR]

Depending on where in the East Coast you go, you will find many from in here. If it is the White mountains, anywhere within the SuperPass, you might run into myself and my son. Others have their own favorite mountain. Personally, I like the torture of the wind and cold (often leading to ICE) of Cannon, but then there are the easier days of race the gates or whatever.

My advise is, when you see other carvers, say hello. We all like to hang with like minded people and in general, unless racing or some event participation, will welcome your company. Come join the madness of watching 10 day weather reports, smiling when the first ice fills the bird bath, and constantly look in here for updates on news of our addiction.

We welcome you.

[JRAZZ]

Ice is ice.  The same problems you'd encounter on ice with softies you will with a HB setup.  

 

To me there are two main benefits of riding HB:  Groom is fun and like-minded (read: weird) individuals to ride with. 

[queequeg]

Embrace the ice. An alpine snowboard is *the* *tool* for mastery of icy conditions. Once you get the hang of proper east coast technique on an alpine snowboard, you will learn to embrace the icy days because your equipment will perform well in it, and the crowds will remain in the lodge nursing their bruised egos (and arses). The key to success here is to get good instruction early. Now that I'm on the west coast I find that the snow is generally too soft for my liking most of the time out here, I miss the hard/fast east-coast snow.

Edited November 14, 2016 by queequeg

[Bonus boy]

15 hours ago, Beckmann AG said:

You may think that, but you don't yet know that.  A great deal of riding well on hard snow is how you make use of the equipment, and there are quite a few on hardboots that would probably do better on softboots when the going gets firm.

That would depend a little on how you'd define your 'soft boot style',  and what you think 'hardboot style' involves.

Hardtail? Double squish? Niner, 7.5, 26? Fatty, mid fat, or classic?  Etc, etc? Are you happy with it, and what kind of terrain do you gravitate toward?

My style currently is "forty something dad having fun while trying to keep up with two boys and his adrenaline-addicted hotshot wife." Nothing special.  I love trying to carve the turns instead of sliding around. I was a downhill skier as a kid, but Sam (aforementioned wife) says we should all be on the same gear or else we won't actually be together. 

 

On bikes I ride a fully suspended 650b cross country and lift-assisted downhill. Also a bmx bike on pump tracks and street riding. 

 

And I used to ride recumbents, so I'm no stranger to small groups of dedicated/obsessed fans in a niche part of a great sport. 

[Tugboater]

Where do you generally ride? We like to suck in new addicts so chances are we may be able to meet up with loaner gear. 

[lowrider]

Once you have dialed in your perfect HB setup and are comfortable on ice add a plate (bomber 4mm  lite) and you will ride ice like your driving with studded snow tires. West coasters won't have a clue what i mean but if you are an ice coaster you do.

[TLN]

Hardboot and alpine is like a cheat code for icy condition and carving.

You can ride same carves/speed as on your softie with no effort. Lean sideways, front/back - edgehold is great, you know that board will hold the edge. It's more fun to ride faster/tight turns though, and you'll get some crashes doing so.

Hardboots might be uncomfortable, but once you dialed in - they're pretty comfy.

[Technick]

Some advice I can give based on personnal experience:

- Meet up on the slopes with experienced carvers, this site is great to for that. Their advices is a gold mine, the learning curve will be much smoother with someone to guide you, or at least give some tips or point obvious mistakes. Alot of them have boards that they are willing to lend if you want to get a taste of it.

- If you dive in and want to buy gear, used or new try to find a good "metal" board, my new Coiler metal board is a machine on ice!! 

- Good technique is the key to perform on ice, be patient, it takes time.

- Look at the "Extreme Carving" or EC style. Even if you dont go all the way laying down on the snow, the "Rotation" and "Push-Pull" technique used is really good for stability and control, witch is super important on ice!

 

Look at this EC lesson, focus on the rotationnal slide turns, then rationnal carved turns and finally push-pull... 

(Push-Pull at 3:55)

 

 

Edited November 16, 2016 by Technick

[Bonus boy]

You all are amazing. 

We live in western MA, so we often ride in Vermont; Pico, Killington, Bolton Valley, Mount Snow. Sometimes Berkshire East, when the snow is good there. 

Is there anyone renting gear? Near any of those mountains? I don't want to be dragging you all around just in case this old dog might be able to learn new tricks. 

Ian

[west carven]

howdy iCamera

ec is not the best technique for ice. your weight needs to be over your edge like an ice skater at all times.

leaning over like the extreme carvers will cause you to lose your edge very fast. a more upright over your

edge will keep you from sliding out. minimal movement on your upper body helps.

[Technick]

9 hours ago, west carven said:

howdy iCamera

ec is not the best technique for ice. your weight needs to be over your edge like an ice skater at all times.

leaning over like the extreme carvers will cause you to lose your edge very fast. a more upright over your

edge will keep you from sliding out. minimal movement on your upper body helps.

Again, speaking from personnal experience... and I specified the first two parts of EC (without the laydown...), rotation and push-pull for smooth egde change, constant edge pressure and great speed control. I do both style, bomber or racer style (low on the board, weight on edge, pushing getting out of the carve and changing edge...) and EC and I find the EC style (without laydown) more stable on ice. :)

[Technick]

Drift turns with body rotation:

 

Edited November 16, 2016 by Technick

[Technick]

Carved turns with body rotation... (This techique is great to control speed, witch builts up much faster when carving than freestyle snowboard)

 

[Erik J]

There are many interpretations of "ice". Hardboots, plates and alpine boards are the tool for the job when the surface gets hard. 

The dude in the videos above was using body position that worked for those conditions. Harder surface would dictate keeping shoulders more level in the turn, stacking your weight/body angles onto the edge, NO reaching for the snow. 

[philw]

1. One reason why people like me ride hard boots is because in Europe, as a visitor, it's easier to find hardpack than it is to find powder (too many people chasing too little powder in a relatively constricted area accessible by visitors). That's perhaps why  "hard booting" was very much the European approach initially, until the consumer wave made rails apparently an attractive thing.
    
2. If you think carved turns look good, you should walk away now, as if you try them you'll discover that they feel better than they look, at which point you're toast.
    
3. I've maybe once ever come across true ice (rained on snow which froze over). No one, skier or snowboarder, one was riding that, it's very rare and I doubt most people will ever see it. Normal "icy" conditions are rideable. I'm not sure how softies work there, although you seldom see people doing well on them, where as hard booters rip ice like it's a race course (...). Board design and sharp edges probably help, as perhaps does fine control of the edge.

[Neil Gendzwill]

16 minutes ago, philw said:

1.  
2.  
3. I've maybe once ever come across true ice (rained on snow which froze over). No one, skier or snowboarder, one was riding that, it's very rare and I doubt most people will ever see it.

Ice is quite common in spring riding, or at least it is in the Banff resorts I visit.  The snow melts into slush the previous afternoon, and freezes rock-solid overnight in whatever shapes peoples' turns have left.  In the morning you have a surface that you have trouble setting an edge into, with all manner of ridges and lumps to catch your edge and throw you on your ass. I find it unrideable, and generally stay away from the slopes until it starts to soften up.

Edited November 16, 2016 by Neil Gendzwill

[west carven]

howdy iCamera

throw ec style out of your head. turn as comfortably as you feel your board will allow you. go slow

and be over your edge. pitch and sidecut will determine how you should be turning. every board

has a rhythm determined by the sidecut and flex, ride the board and don't push it or pull it, go with the flow...

don't ever do a triple sow cow (ha hah, make joke)...

[teach]

7 hours ago, Neil Gendzwill said:

The snow melts into slush the previous afternoon, and freezes rock-solid overnight in whatever shapes peoples' turns have left.

[Shudder] My nightmare is Neil's ice.

7 hours ago, philw said:

1. ...
    
2. ...
    
3. I've maybe once ever come across true ice (rained on snow which froze over). No one, skier or snowboarder, one was riding that, it's very rare and I doubt most people will ever see it.

I rode this once. The slope was well-groomed before the rain, so the surface was like glass. No one riding, so taking huge turns and going mach 2 wasn't a problem. It was really nice. Easy to focus on technique. I felt like a champ!

As my technique improves I find conditions verging on ice really fun. Still not there for the real thing, but I'm always optimistic.

[SunSurfer]

4 hours ago, philw said:

1.  
2. If you think carved turns look good, you should walk away now, as if you try them you'll discover that they feel better than they look, at which point you're toast.
    
3. I've maybe once ever come across true ice (rained on snow which froze over). No one, skier or snowboarder, one was riding that, it's very rare and I doubt most people will ever see it. Normal "icy" conditions are rideable. I'm not sure how softies work there, although you seldom see people doing well on them, where as hard booters rip ice like it's a race course (...). Board design and sharp edges probably help, as perhaps does fine control of the edge.

In NZ on Mt Ruapehu we recognise "Turoa powder". It's blue, transparent, and melts in the afternoon. Marginal temperatures will do it for you every time with thaw/refreeze cycled repeatedly. I think ice skates are the only appropriate equipment for it!

[Bobby Buggs]

Hard part is going to be finding gear to use. Im at Berkshire east on the reg if you want to try and hook up there. We have helped many people make advancements in carving there. Im confident if we get a chance to spend a couple hours on the hill you will have an Ah ha moment in your carving development