Corey Posted March 3, 2016 Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 For those that didn't notice this in the French forums (http://forums.bomberonline.com/index.php?/topic/43081-cest-officiel/#entry437924), the manufacturer of 0.3mm Titanal is stopping production. And, the 0.4mm Titanal minimum order quantity is increasing dramatically - to the point that the surface treatment will expire before a fraction of the material could be used. Long story short: Coiler will build 100 more boards for $1000 Canadian and then he has to reevaluate his position at that time. See note at bottom of http://www.coiler.com/ Scary times for us alpine riders, as that 0.3mm metal is fundamental to the boards we love so much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Posted March 3, 2016 Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 Crap! A sad day. That's what I get for not buying a Coiler earlier in the season when I was talking about it. Wish that some smart builder would find an alternative material, but I suspect that's easier said than done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boardguru Posted March 3, 2016 Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 (edited) Ordered a Nirvana Balance a few weeks ago. I'll have to contact Bruce to see if I'm affected by this. Edited March 4, 2016 by boardguru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowrider Posted March 3, 2016 Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 Vote for Donald he will fix this ! Invade Austria. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Tsao Posted March 3, 2016 Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 Ordered a Nirvana Balance a few weeks ago. I'll have to contact Bruce to see if I'm affected buy this. I ordered my Nirvana Balance on 2/24....Bruce responded that night explaining the titanal situation (apparently he had just learned of it) but assured me that my order was one of the last before the price hike. Based on that, I would guess that any orders 2/25 and beyond include the increase but that is obviously just a guess and I would call to confirm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Donnelly Posted March 3, 2016 Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 Thanks Corey! Dan, get one while you can and take advantage of the favorable U.S./CDN $ exchange!! http://www.xe.com/currencyconverter/convert/?Amount=1&From=CAD&To=USD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carp Posted March 3, 2016 Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 Start handing out your Bomber cards at your local riding spot to increase demand for alpine riding and let's pick up demand - 4500 boards is a lot! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powdahbonz Posted March 3, 2016 Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 AMAG has been threatening this change for some time, according to Bruce and there is debate whether the thicker .4 will create riding properties that are too torsionally stiff. The order requirements for gross materials was something ridiculous like a 1500% increase from previous minimum orders. IIRC something like material for 5000+ boards. Given the shelf life of titanal, that creates the situation currently. All builders affected won't go quietly but if you haven't gotten in line for a Coiler, I wouldn't wait. When we found this out at ECES it was definitely a downer. Still quite a value based upon exchange. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corey Posted March 3, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 My original message was quite Coiler-centric, but of course this affects all manufacturers that use Titanal. Kessler, Donek, Oxess, Virus (I think - excuse my ignorance of their construction), Coiler, Prior, etc. Bruce mentiioned some cuts would probably be able to relieve torsional stiffness if he had to use 0.4 material, but that would be a big development project. He's talking more and more about slowing down in general, so I'm not sure if he'll bother. Donek has been continuing their fiberglass/carbon development during the metal years, so they may be able to compensate for the lack of metal more rapidly than others. Obviously Oxess and Virus have a variety of non-metal boards that also ride very well! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Gendzwill Posted March 3, 2016 Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 Seems like the various custom builders need to get together and negotiate a bulk buy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf Posted March 3, 2016 Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 Do skis use thicker titanal? Otherwise, ski manufacturers will also have some redesign to do (assuming big ski manufacturers can easily absorb the new order size requirement). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdboytyler Posted March 3, 2016 Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 Quick internet search found some posts that AMAG's patents ran out a few years ago and they were cutting some products due to competition. Any truth to this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powdahbonz Posted March 3, 2016 Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 My understanding from some ski manufacturers is that they do use .4 but I'm no engineer and do not pretend to know much about the process..taking it from the designer's mouth that if Bruce says that the .3 to .4 difference is that significant to cause him to possibly end the biz, that it's pretty critical. Now, does that mean we take the way back machine back to glass or glass/carbon construction...who knows? bruce's comments were that AMAG lose/waste material when making the .3 so unless they're making significant amounts and moving it, what's the point to them. And it sounds like they're the only game in town...agreed that a combination of multiple builders should pool resources to get the materials...stockpiling isn't an option with a limited shelf life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted March 3, 2016 Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 It's a 33% increase in thickness, so yeah, significant. The boards will ride differently unless the builder can compensate somehow, but that would take time, trial and error. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruincounselor Posted March 4, 2016 Report Share Posted March 4, 2016 (edited) It's a 33% increase in thickness, so yeah, significant. What I was thinking. Why does this metal have a shelf life? Edit: reread first post. Edited March 4, 2016 by bruincounselor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdboytyler Posted March 4, 2016 Report Share Posted March 4, 2016 What I was thinking. Why does this metal have a shelf life? Edit: reread first post. There is chemical coating on the metal that is suppose to help epoxies adhere to the metal. The short shelf life is for the coating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRAZZ Posted March 4, 2016 Report Share Posted March 4, 2016 It's an opportunity.... Good? Bad? Depends what you make of it. I can think of a couple of ways to change and improve having this as a challenge. Just off the top of my head... 1) Other metals? Does it have to be this alloy? 2) Other shapes? Can you perforate the .4 sheets to reduce weight? I bet with some careful planning you could get the same performance with comparable weight. 3) Different design? With the readily available FEA tools combined with more advanced 3d designs I would bet that there are designs that would work well without metal. Point is that there are ways around any limitation. I am willing to bet good will come of it. Chin up! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jng Posted March 4, 2016 Report Share Posted March 4, 2016 It's an opportunity.... Good? Bad? Depends what you make of it. I can think of a couple of ways to change and improve having this as a challenge. Just off the top of my head... 1) Other metals? Does it have to be this alloy? 2) Other shapes? Can you perforate the .4 sheets to reduce weight? I bet with some careful planning you could get the same performance with comparable weight. 3) Different design? With the readily available FEA tools combined with more advanced 3d designs I would bet that there are designs that would work well without metal. Point is that there are ways around any limitation. I am willing to bet good will come of it. Chin up! You may be right in the long term, but in the near term, the premature end of a premier artisan brand would be a heavy cost for this "opportunity". 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowrider Posted March 4, 2016 Report Share Posted March 4, 2016 If this is a shake down in the world price for a sheet of titinal what would you be willing to pay ? Retail a sheet of 310mm x 2000mm x.4mm is going for $ 48.00 today. If .3mm is no longer available what is going to happen to the price for .4mm ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kieran Posted March 4, 2016 Report Share Posted March 4, 2016 i'm imagining a sheet of 0.4mm with a honeycomb of holes cut into it, the diameters of which growing smaller towards the edge of the board. does waste titanal have a recycle value? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRAZZ Posted March 4, 2016 Report Share Posted March 4, 2016 i'm imagining a sheet of 0.4mm with a honeycomb of holes cut into it, the diameters of which growing smaller towards the edge of the board. does waste titanal have a recycle value? Probably not.... Definitely not at the weight you are talking about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowrider Posted March 4, 2016 Report Share Posted March 4, 2016 Scrap aluminum price. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Varsava Posted March 4, 2016 Report Share Posted March 4, 2016 I have all the answers(-: Except how to buy .3mm Titanal I'll write up what I know when I get a few minutes but believe it or not, right now I'm about to assemble a 174 Nirvana Energy with .4 I had a few samples sent about 7 or 8 years ago when working on 270cm+ skis for the ice windsurfing crowd. Never did proceed with that and have .4, .5 and .6 thickness , 4 pcs of each. Used some of the thick stuff for tooling but had all 4 sheets of .4. Now I know what you're thinking and yes, it still appears to be plenty good for bonding. It was stored half ass correctly but the bag it was in did have some rips. Very little discoloration compared to the new stuff I have in stock now. This is at least partly good news as I would not be scared to get a 5 or so year supply now. You just need to keep moisture out as it can penetrate the anodized coating and oxidize the metal. Prelim bond test has totally positive results. Should be testing the board on Sunday as after that weatherman says all I will be riding is motorcycles OUCH! BV 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kieran Posted March 4, 2016 Report Share Posted March 4, 2016 see those little packs of silica gel that come in everything? send them to bruce and sean. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tugboater Posted March 5, 2016 Report Share Posted March 5, 2016 Is a collective group buy possible for all the carving board manufacturers? Shipping will.be a little more but it could solve the volume issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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