Seeking Winter Vehicle Advice

[queequeg]

Have you ever considered a helicopter Jose?

Think about it. I mean, really, really think about it?:rolleyes::D

No, but I have an appointment at the magic carpet dealer this afternoon!

[rjnakata]

Hey Queequeg,

I have an 01 Legacy GT wagon, manual.

I like it better than our CRV for snow. I feel better with a lower center of gravity. It just feels more stable and stops better in my opinion.

I have recently had the head gaskets replaced (which is a documented warrantee problem with this vintage) and the original clutch replaced at about 50K. The new clutch is going good at 110K.

I think it's a great car for snow and a good car for everything else. The only thing I wish is that it got better gas mileage. I'm thinking mine does 20-21mpg MAX. on the highway.

It was great for the PNW, but for benign mountain driving here in SoCal next time I'm thinking something hybrid. :o

Let us all know what you get!

[Petrol]

Around here if you're looking at a Subaru or Cherokee for under $4k, it will be pretty old (mid to late 90s) and likely have a lot of miles. A FWD drive car in the same price range will be newer and fewer miles.....

picked up a 'lightly' used 2004 Volvo S40 4dr sedan from an elderly neighbor for my daughter for a song ($3k).

At 110k miles, all service records including new timing chain, tires, brakes, oil & filters.

looks to be a good little car that will likely live on to be a Great 'beater' in several yrs

[queequeg]

So after doing a bit more e-bay checking (checking completed items that sold in my area), it would appear that I can easily find a used subaru legacy, or outback in my range. Typically, mileage tends to be low 90's to 150k. The cars end up having sold for about $2500 right up to four.

I'd probably be happier spending four for a car with lower mileage. Seems to work out about the same with Jeeps, though I have seen a few with 50-60 k on them for like 2K.

All things being equal, I think I'd prefer to get a Subaru Outback - but if I can swing a jeep with lower miles at a lower price point I will. I'll only go for a forrester if it is a deal, due to smaller trunk. If I buy a Jeep, I will be extra careful checking out the car history: seems like a vehicle that is more likely to have endured abuse. A jeep will have to look very clean and well loved for me to go for it (I'm seening a few like this in my range).

So I'm aiming to buy something with 2 owners or less (doesn't seem like this is too hard to find) and under 150k miles. I'm going to make sure that the car has been well maintained, since this is a high mileage car we're talking about. My big concern is reliability of course:

Assuming the Subaru is well maintained, how far do you think I could (reasonably) expect it to last before it starts becoming problemmatic? What about the Jeep? Obviuosly, car to car this will vary, but I'm trying to just figure out the odds on which car becoming unreliable first.

Note that these cars will be driven almost exclusively on the highway.

I realize, I am probably overthinking this.

[John Gilmour]

http://www.justacargeek.com/2010/02/1990-mercedes-300te-4matic-perfect.html

Watch all the youtube videos about this... in the end they set it ablaze and shoot it with a cannon.

I thing the W124 chassis cars were the best of the best of Mercedes.

You could drive it.. put 45K on it and sell it for what you bought it for.

Put Hakkapellitta 5's or 7's on it and you can climb trees. The Factory Eco Studded hakkas are simply unreal. Airclaw is a good name for them..

They Hakka 7s are also quiet..very quiet for studded tires. I worked as a valet drove everything, did endless snowboard demos..logged countless New England miles, Drove a Suburban Limo in Colorado (with Cooper studded snow tires) and then put Hakkas studded 7's on a Escalade... the escalade was skidding all over the place..and so was everyone else in Aspen.. we put the hakkas on it... and tried to make the car skid and could not....not matter how hard we braked we couldn't even get the ABS to come on. They outlast others 2 to 1 for wear and have tons of lateral grip...which is the most important type of grip for New England winding two way roads... trust me...

Also... let's be serious here...

4 hour drives... Add in NYC traffic and it could turn into 5.5 hour drives...

What is your back going to be like after that long in a Subaru or Toyota seat? Also Mercedes 124 cars have the best climate control and best defrost for clear windows. Lets not forget that you might be driving for an hour or two around town in VT before you start that 5.5 hour drive back home...

If youare driving in snow storms on busy NY highways and a huge Suburban or Ford Excursion comes over into your lane for a head on collision because that dickhead is using all season radials on ice.... would you rather be in a Subaru, Toyota, or a Mercedes?

well?

Lets say you are doing 70mph, and he is doing 80mph... that's a 150 MPH impact.

Here's a 150 MPH impact in a Mercedes (the smaller convertible) and second impact at about 85 mph, and a rollover at about 65mph.

My parents wiped out on ice at 40 mphin a Honda Accord... busted ribs, collar bones, hurt necks.. car was totaled, passenger compartment intruded upon by 3 feet!

Save the Japanese cars for dry grippy roads... because even if you have incredible winter grip...who's to say some idiot won't hit you?

The W124's weigh in at about 3700lbs... that should survive an SUV impact....

I know... I was hit by a Ford Expedition, and my car was not totaled.

After 5 hours in a w124 that is quiet, smooth riding...and fairly decent on gas... you will have the energy to go carving.

You can repair them cheaply because of junk yard prices.. I find the costs are about 20% of dealership rates. I did my complete exhaust and radiator and thermostat for $950

Also if the paint is not scratched.. you can really make them look like new with Menzerna polishes and a porter cable dual action polisher..

The Mercedes interiors last forever (especially the synthetic interiors) , Subaru interiors get funky in a few years like Toyotas, Jeep interiors fall apart..roof cancer, cracked seats and dash, etc...

I think those W124 wagons are the Madd 158's of snow cars.....oldies but goodies. They will never leave you stranded.

[mikel45]

Cheapest reliable used car: Volvo 240

"240s are roomy (especially in wagon form), reasonably fuel efficient (20 - 30 mpg), durable (engines with 200,000+ miles are not blinked at), solid (steel construction), safe (one of the many cars that built the Volvo=Safe reputation), comfy (lumbar support, heated seats, et cetera), simple to work on (thanks to a roomy engine bay), excellent community support (comprehensive FAQ & online forums), excellent parts support (online junkyard parts galore, and you can still get parts at dealerships), good in the winter (with proper snow tires) and best of all, cheap!"

Source

[scrutton]

I reckon the Jeep Cherokee is probably a good bet. A buddy got one for a song, and it's holding up. The roof did drop, but he just ripped it out, bit of spray paint....where's the problem.

I put 278K on a 96 Ford Explorer 4WD Sport. It's comfy enough, and I sold it for $440, still running, but had a lot of issues by then. You could probably get a decent running for $1k or so, and don't have to worry about it getting stolen. 4WD will get you to the mountains, and reliable enough. Not great on mileage, but a 3 way split on gas and you'll be in good shape.

SUV's like this are now un-popular now that new models are out and can be purchased for next to no money. The new Explorer looks like a subaru.

[John Gilmour]

http://www.converse-engineering.com/inhouse.htm

from the site..

This is a 1989 Mercedes 300 TE wagon that was recently completed. The original Mercedes straight 6 was replaced by a 1994 Lincoln Mark VIII 4.6L 32 valve engine and transmission. This is essentially the same motor found in the later Mustang Cobras. The engine is a perfect match for the Mercedes as it is incredibly smooth and free-revving.

for about 5k he would put a low mileage mustang V8 engine into a volvo.. Letterman and PAul Newman both drive these. 0-60 in 5 sec.

[skategoat]

Love 240s but they are hard to find in decent shape. A good second choice is a 850 or V70, non-turbo. Solid, safe and roomy. The last true Volvos before Ford got their mitts into the company.

I just bought a 2000 V70 to use as a work beater. Cost me $1,500 + $2,000 to refurbish it.

Cheapest reliable used car: Volvo 240

"240s are roomy (especially in wagon form), reasonably fuel efficient (20 - 30 mpg), durable (engines with 200,000+ miles are not blinked at), solid (steel construction), safe (one of the many cars that built the Volvo=Safe reputation), comfy (lumbar support, heated seats, et cetera), simple to work on (thanks to a roomy engine bay), excellent community support (comprehensive FAQ & online forums), excellent parts support (online junkyard parts galore, and you can still get parts at dealerships), good in the winter (with proper snow tires) and best of all, cheap!"

Source

[AaronG]

I love 240 Volvos, hence the screen name

[BlueB]

Ford Explorer is called "Exploder" around here... Sorry.

Merc 124 chassis is a great car. I drove an E200 for many years in South Africa. It was reliable, confy, good on gas, every mechanic knew how to work on it, plenty of parts available for cheap. Very slow compared to all other of my cars.

However, I would NEVER drive it in snow/ice. Hell, I wouldn't even drive it in very rainy climate either.

[John E]

When I was at this decision point my priorities were: ability to put boards/bikes/dog inside. I hate carrying a board or bike on the roof and having it be filthy when I get there. This leads to a wagon or SUV. Didn't want the SUV because of the fuel economy.

Looked at Subaru wagons. Wife had a Subaru in the past, hated it, vetoed the idea.

Looked at VW & Audi wagons. Most were either overpriced or pretty tired.

Found a 2001 Volvo V40. I now realize that Volvo enthusiasts don't view this as a "real" Volvo but it works pretty well an was in good shape.

What I don't like: It is a FWD with an automatic and a turbo 4 cyl. What this means is it has pretty severe turbo lag. You can't rev the engine before pulling into traffic. So when the turbo spools up and the steering is off center, I get severe torque steer. The tubo lag could be solved with a manual transmission. The torque steer would be helped by AWD. However, these weren't offered w/AWD and they didn't import manual transmissions.

What I do like: I can get boards/bike/dog inside. Because of the turbo, I can climb mountain grades at well above the speed limit if I choose. Because it is a small 4 cyl engine, I get 26 - 32 mpg pretty regularly. The car is in good shape and fairly low mileage. I got it for a pretty good deal because most people looking for cars in this class think they need AWD. It really was owned by a little old lady, wasn't abused and was well maintained.

Somone should chart the lifecycle of a typical car. By the time it gets to a 3rd owner (especially someone under 25 or so), the liklihood of it being abused and/or neglected is pretty high.

[!MaineCarver!]

Seems to me that manuals are less expensive to maintain (though I'm not sure why ... I may be wrong about that).

Well one of the main reasons that they are cheaper to maintain is the transmissions are easier to take care of. Especially when your transmission goes manual transmissions are relatively cheap and are fairly east to install.

[Big D]

Sometimes it is all about the previous driver/owner, my co-worker and I were talking about our vehicles and I said I was happy with my 93 mustang holding up so well for a 90's sports car with 160,000 miles on it. I was quickly shut down by her when she revealed that she bought her 93 Explorer new and has been religious about servicing it. It now has 430,000 miles on it!!! Generally you can follow the statistics but often times it is all about maintenance.

[AaronG]

http://www.converse-engineering.com/inhouse.htm

for about 5k he would put a low mileage mustang V8 engine into a volvo.. Letterman and PAul Newman both drive these. 0-60 in 5 sec.

I actually had a Volvo 240 wagon powered by a Ford 5.0 a few years back. I bought the kit from Converse and did it myself. Fun project! I will see if I can dig up some pics and scan them.

A guy in a Volvo flipped a Uturn and followed me until I stopped. He offered cash to buy my Volvord right on the spot but was not ready to sell then. He called me back repeatedly but I wasn't selling. I found a Volvo 262C (chop top) and wanted that so I called the guy up and sold the Volvord. Two weeks later his son wrapped it around a telephone pole.

[crucible]

I used to have a 1986 SAAB 900S hatchback that had Nokian Hakkapilettas on it that was awesome as a winter vehicle. We bought it for $2200.00.

It was roomy, had great storage, handled well in the snow, and those Swedes knew a thing or two about interior ventilation, heaters and defogging.

Sadly we sold it off three years ago. If I find another one in good nick, I'd pick it up in a heatbeat.

[Sultan Guy]

Of all the cars I have owned this is my favorite.

Will hold a mountain bike standing up on the inside.

My boards always go inside too.

[queequeg]

Ressurecting this thread now that I am actually shopping for cars actively. Seems like it's up between a forester or an outback (full sized). I'm not really interested in Imprezas because they're just a bit too small for long trips with gear for 2-3 people. I'm really just hoping to pick up an Outback.

I have one question left really: I prefer to drive a manual but the fact is: It's hard to find a manual that matches ALL of my criteria (less than 150k miles, no more than 2 owners, nothing earlier than 1999, and under 5k). If I look at automatics, suddenly it becomes a lot easier to find a car that matches all my criteria.

So am I really screwing myself if I get an automatic? How much worse is mileage on an automatic? and how much more likely are problems to occur with an automatic? I understand their longevity is not as good; but Im not going to be putting tons of miles on it, and it will be driven on the highway almost exclusively so maybe an automatic wouldn't be the end of the world?

[scrapster]

I had to make the switch to automatic, as my wife just couldn't get over her nerves about driving a standard. One plus--it will be easier to sell if you choose to later.

As for the Subarus, don't expect stellar mileage with any of them. We have a 2003 Forester auto. It's been pretty solid, but it has its quirks. However, quirks are as much a Subaru trademark as their versatility and toughness. Overall they run strong, but weird little things often go wrong. You also pay double the price for some of the engine and exhaust work because of the boxer engine. Oh yeah, and then there's the tire thing. If you get one flat that can't be patched, you need four new tires! That and the mileage are the big drawbacks of AWD.

Watch out for some of the early 2000's models as well. Many are fine. But others have piston slap when the engine is started cold--they clatter like a diesel truck until they warm up. So keep an ear out for that, and don't let them tell you that it's normal! It was a design flaw (related to a short piston skirt), but they refuse to acknowledge it because it will only really shorten the life of the engine when it reaches high mileage.

Good luck!

[queequeg]

Oh yeah, and then there's the tire thing. If you get one flat that can't be patched, you need four new tires!

Really? That's crazy? Why is this?

Watch out for some of the early 2000's models as well. Many are fine. But others have piston slap when the engine is started cold--they clatter like a diesel truck until they warm up. So keep an ear out for that, and don't let them tell you that it's normal! It was a design flaw (related to a short piston skirt), but they refuse to acknowledge it because it will only really shorten the life of the engine when it reaches high mileage.

Good luck!

Interesting, I drove one today that sounded like it had a bad lifter ... that clackitty clack sound. very slight but I noticed it. So a 1999 would be better than a 2000 by that argument? I've found a few from 1999 that are a pretty great deal.

[en93nsx]

I have had one Subaru that I sold with 200k+ to a family member that had an automatic (1990 Legacy Wagon) that I drove for over a 100K that had 0 issues with the automatic. My parents have an 03 Outback that has just over 100K with an automatic ( my mom can't drive a stick) and have also had 0 issues with the trans. I also prefer the stick as you do, but an auto is just fine as long as the maintenance is done. With the 1990 the car literally rusted away after almost 300K miles before any mechanical failure.

[scrapster]

I'm sure someone hear can explain the tire thing better than I can. But in short, due to how the AWD works, all the tires have to have the same diameter, so you can't have one new tire with more tread than the others.

I'm wondering how many model years the piston slap was an issue. You can probably google it. I'm also not sure how big of a deal it would be for the limited amount you'll be using the car. (We were pissed because we paid $11k for ours and it was only 4 years old.) Obviously, cars with this condition will start burning oil sooner. Still, that could only mean needing a piston and ring job at 200k instead of at 250k or 300k miles.

[michael.a]

I'm sure someone hear can explain the tire thing better than I can. But in short, due to how the AWD works, all the tires have to have the same diameter, so you can't have one new tire with more tread than the others.

.

It all depends on what kind of AWD you have, how many miles on the car, if you regularly rotated your tires, etc, but the general rule of thumb on most modern "AWD" systems is a) rotate the tires every 6k-8k, and if there is more than 1/4" of wear between all the tires, which is done by measuring the entire tire from tread to tread, then you have to replace them but theres many option, for example you could technically shave the tires.

So being religious with tire wear plus 2x-3x the maintenance costs and the Subaru tax on everything.. meh. And since most people lag or just dont service their cars at regular intervals due to the cost, with that "oh Ill get that knocking sound checked out next month", well... Its all about the maintenance.

That was why I decided against any AWD/4WD, esp if you live in the burbs and head up to the mountains only on the weekend. All you need are a good set of winter tires, thats it. I have a '99 Golf diesel thats been like a tank while getting around 40mpg. During the winter I use Bridgestone Blizzaks and have never had a problem in blizzards, ice, freezing rain, up steep hills, whatever.... And I live in Poland, home of the worst roads and winters in mainland Europe. :)

In my opinion avoid SUVs because they dont handle well and get worse mileage, a FWD wagon from VW, volvo, honda with a good maintenance history and a set of winter tires is all youll need.

[John E]

Automatics are weak points on some cars, no problem on others. Don't know about Subarus.

A manual can get better mileage than an auto (or worse) depending on how it is driven. I doubt that the mileage penalty would be significant if the cars are driven the same.

As the poster above says - if you get good snow tires on a front wheel drive car you should do just fine and really open up your options.

[scrapster]

I second John E's point. My wife drives our Subaru exactly 2 miles to work everyday on roads that are usually plowed pretty quickly. She hates driving in winter, so she takes the "better" car.

Meanwhile, I'm driving all over New England to snowboard in my 2WD Scion XD with Hakka R snow tires (and it's even an automatic)--haven't had a problem. Now, if we really lived up in the mountains on a dirt road/driveway that the town didn't plow, that would be a different story...