bobdea Posted January 13, 2011 Report Share Posted January 13, 2011 What's so magic about a Subie? There are quite a few AWD cars that perform just fine. IDK, but I can tell you the older subaru wagon are better than truck or SUV I've driven in snowy conditions. I have not driven a subaru newer than 2000 other than a sti and that was not in snow anyway. the only cars that even come close in my experience are the really small ones, metros and and ford aspires are also great in snow but microscopic. all three are better than my jetta. but my jetta is still pretty good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike T Posted January 13, 2011 Report Share Posted January 13, 2011 [i would recommend Nokian Hakkapeliita Snow Tires. They are a little more expensive than the Blizzaks or other brands but they are MUCH better tires. My wife and I both have Outbacks with said Nokians. I don't have the experience to compare them to too many other tires but definitely head and shoulders above anything else I've used, and they are lasting longer than the Blizzaks used by a couple acquaintances. Certainly enough to second the recommendation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueB Posted January 13, 2011 Report Share Posted January 13, 2011 Guys, his budget is $4k and you're throwing names like Audi and M-B at him?Having owned about a zillion cars in my life, I would not buy anything German for $4,000. The repair cost to vehicle value ratio will eat you up. Look at $1,000 plus for rotors and pads. Anything electrical - you are screwed. The worst car to buy is an aging VW-Audi product. You'll be reaching into your wallet every time you turn around. The problem with Japanese used cars is the price. They hold their value a little too well. Take a look a Jeep Cherokee. Do not confuse it with the V8 Grand Cherokee. The V8 Grand Cherokee is a P.O.S. The 4.0l Cherokee is a tank. Considering that you'll be driving the car infrequently, you want simple, stupid technology. A cast iron, inline 6 designed in the 80s fits the bill. AMC/Chrysler made 5 million of the things. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMC_Straight_6_engine#4.0 Voice of reason! Can't beat the Cherokee straight 6, at $4K price tag. We've got 2011 VW Tiguan, 2003 Mitsubishi Outlander and a 1994 Cherokee Sport with 330K on the clock. Cherokee is still my favorite car for trashing around. It's simple, solid as a tank, gets over and out of everythingthing, turns super tight... It slides in the corners a bit more then the other 2 cars and brakes less good (no ABS). However, I drive it with AT tires year-round, while other 2 always get snow tires for the winter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
queequeg Posted January 14, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 14, 2011 I've been thinking about it a bit more, and poking around. It seems to me that given: 1) the legendary reliability of the Jeep. 2) how cheap they can be had. 3) their relative simplicity, and resultant ease of maintenence. 4) their low value (more car/less mileage for your money). 5) their low value (less interesting to theives). I am almost certain to go for the Jeep. At my price point, a high mileage vehicle is nearly certain, and while the subarus do seem to last, I keep hearing these stories of Jeeps that are still reliable after 300k mileage. It seems like within my price range, I see all kinds of jeeps with anywhere from 60k - 200k miles on them. It seems like the negatives would be: 1) crappy mileage. 2) sosmewhat rough ride. 3) somewhat small interior. It's an easy tradeoff to make. Four hours is not such a long drive that the small interior and rough ride is a dealbreaker for me. The crappy mileage is annoying. Subaru is still a possibility but I feel more confident that the Cherokee will last and be problem free (not just in terms of driving to VT in snow, but also in terms of leaving it parked on the street unmoved for weeks at a time in NYC). For anyone who has had one of these things: presuming that I find one in decent shape, what kind of highway mileage am I going to get under normal conditions? 18mpg? worse? Should I avoid buying one with big tires, or is that a plus (by big, I don't mean huge, I've just noticed that some have bigger tires with beefier suspension and well ... if you're gonna get one of those you might as well get one that can go anywhere right?). Will the bigger tires raise my insurance (which is generally quite low)? I've still got plenty of time before I buy, I won't be doing this until next summer. Just want to think it through carefully. Thanks again for everyone who has offered advice! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobdea Posted January 14, 2011 Report Share Posted January 14, 2011 I've been thinking about it a bit more, and poking around. It seems to me that given: 1) the legendary reliability of the Jeep. 2) how cheap they can be had. 3) their relative simplicity, and resultant ease of maintenence. 4) their low value (more car/less mileage for your money). 5) their low value (less interesting to theives). I am almost certain to go for the Jeep. At my price point, a high mileage vehicle is nearly certain, and while the subarus do seem to last, I keep hearing these stories of Jeeps that are still reliable after 300k mileage. It seems like within my price range, I see all kinds of jeeps with anywhere from 60k - 200k miles on them. It seems like the negatives would be: 1) crappy mileage. 2) sosmewhat rough ride. 3) somewhat small interior. It's an easy tradeoff to make. Four hours is not such a long drive that the small interior and rough ride is a dealbreaker for me. The crappy mileage is annoying. Subaru is still a possibility but I feel more confident that the Cherokee will last and be problem free (not just in terms of driving to VT in snow, but also in terms of leaving it parked on the street unmoved for weeks at a time in NYC). For anyone who has had one of these things: presuming that I find one in decent shape, what kind of highway mileage am I going to get under normal conditions? 18mpg? worse? Should I avoid buying one with big tires, or is that a plus (by big, I don't mean huge, I've just noticed that some have bigger tires with beefier suspension and well ... if you're gonna get one of those you might as well get one that can go anywhere right?). Will the bigger tires raise my insurance (which is generally quite low)? I've still got plenty of time before I buy, I won't be doing this until next summer. Just want to think it through carefully. Thanks again for everyone who has offered advice! don't buy one with big tires on it, it might indicate someone who likes mud might of had it. if you see one that has a lift kit just run away. generally speaking if you see any performance mods to a car you can expect less reliability AND also expect it to of been beaten. case in point, I went to look at a car a few months ago and it had 17 inch rims on it, I popped the hood and there was a "pretty trick" air filter on the thing. apparently the trick part of it was not only was it letting more air in, it was also letting dirt in. would of bought the car otherwise but some moron modded the thing and left it with a potential failure point. the air filter was basically letting air by on it's edge. these days whenever I see any ricer stuff on a car I think twice about dealing with it. same goes for the redneck side of things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
queequeg Posted January 14, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 14, 2011 don't buy one with big tires on it, it might indicate someone who likes mud might of had it. if you see one that has a lift kit just run away. generally speaking if you see any performance mods to a car you can expect less reliability AND also expect it to of been beaten. case in point, I went to look at a car a few months ago and it had 17 inch rims on it, I popped the hood and there was a "pretty trick" air filter on the thing. apparently the trick part of it was not only was it letting more air in, it was also letting dirt in. would of bought the car otherwise but some moron modded the thing and left it with a potential failure point. the air filter was basically letting air by on it's edge. these days whenever I see any ricer stuff on a car I think twice about dealing with it. same goes for the redneck side of things. Good point, I don't want some car somebody has been screwing around with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.T. Posted January 14, 2011 Report Share Posted January 14, 2011 I am almost certain to go for the Jeep I saw you mentioned the poor gas mileage of the Jeep. You should anticipate that the difference in gas mileage between the Jeep and a Subi will be approaching 10mpg. If you are planning on using the vehicle mainly for roadtrips, you will take a big hit to the pocketbook every time you drive the Jeep. - JMHO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueB Posted January 14, 2011 Report Share Posted January 14, 2011 You should anticipate that the difference in gas mileage between the Jeep and a Subi will be approaching 10mpg. Thats a riddicoulous assumption! On open road I get about 16.5 mpg from my Cherokee, and about 19.5 mpg from Mitsubishi Outlander, which has similar engine capacity and weight as Forester. Ok, Subi has Boxer engine, so it might be a bit more economical... If you decided on Subaru, and you end up getting year 2000-2004, make sure it had the engine head gasket replaced. They blow at about 100000km (well known factory defect). After replacement, they easilly go another 300000... When I bought the Mitsubishi, few years ago, I actually wanted a Subi. Research has shown the fact above. Dealers know it, factory knows it, people on car forums know it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUD Posted January 14, 2011 Report Share Posted January 14, 2011 Thats a riddicoulous assumption! On open road I get about 16.5 mpg from my Cherokee, and about 19.5 mpg from Mitsubishi Outlander, which has similar engine capacity and weight as Forester. Ok, Subi has Boxer engine, so it might be a bit more economical... That is HORRIBLE!!!!! My wifes 96 Legacy GT got 30 in the summer and 26-27 in the winter, and it was the 2.5!!!! WOW, I knew they were bad, but sheesh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.T. Posted January 15, 2011 Report Share Posted January 15, 2011 Thats a riddicoulous assumption! On open road I get about 16.5 mpg from my Cherokee, and about 19.5 mpg from Mitsubishi Outlander, which has similar engine capacity and weight as Forester. Ok, Subi has Boxer engine, so it might be a bit more economical... If you decided on Subaru, and you end up getting year 2000-2004, make sure it had the engine head gasket replaced. They blow at about 100000km (well known factory defect). After replacement, they easilly go another 300000... When I bought the Mitsubishi, few years ago, I actually wanted a Subi. Research has shown the fact above. Dealers know it, factory knows it, people on car forums know it... BB - no assumption. Matter of fact, you did a great job proving my point... In the last 8.3 years I have put a total of 197,500 miles on two Subarus - an average of 23,750 miles per year. The first Subaru was an '02 Outback. On the highway it got 25mpg in the winter with dedicated snow tires. It got 27mpg in the warmer months with all season tires. I bought it new and sold it with ~62,500 miles. My current Subaru is an '05 Legacy GT. The computer is re-programed, so it's producing ~300hp and 315ft-lbs at the wheels. On the highway it gets 27mpg on dedicated snows and 30mph on the ultra high performance summer tires and I have a heavy right foot... I bought it new, it currently has ~135,000 miles. The only "bummer" is I have to run Premium Unleaded gas. In that 197,500 miles I have replaced two sets of brakes, one clutch assembly, one timing belt & water pump (both as preventative maintenance), and three wheel bearings. The wheel bearings were fixed under warranty on the '05 as Subaru had bad batch of bearings. queequeg - it agree with all of the other statements regarding dedicated snow tires, they are worth their weight in gold! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dingbat Posted January 15, 2011 Report Share Posted January 15, 2011 Thats a riddicoulous assumption! On open road I get about 16.5 mpg from my Cherokee, and about 19.5 mpg from Mitsubishi Outlander, which has similar engine capacity and weight as Forester. Ok, Subi has Boxer engine, so it might be a bit more economical... '07 Forrester, 25mpg highway with studded snows, three passengers, two dogs, car loaded to the gills with luggage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueB Posted January 15, 2011 Report Share Posted January 15, 2011 Wow, that's outstanding! That thing has consumption of a small car! I knew that boxer engines were more economical, but that much... Thanks for schooling me. Anyone wants to trade a Subi for a nicelly beat up Jeep? :D ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hilux Posted January 15, 2011 Report Share Posted January 15, 2011 If you decided on Subaru, and you end up getting year 2000-2004, make sure it had the engine head gasket replaced. They blow at about 100000km (well known factory defect). After replacement, they easilly go another 300000... When I bought the Mitsubishi, few years ago, I actually wanted a Subi. Research has shown the fact above. Dealers know it, factory knows it, people on car forums know it... 10-4. Looked into this a couple years ago with the 2.5's. Especially the 2000-2002's but some I looked at already had the HG done. Don't let it scare you, just be mindful of it and ask questions if you go this route (every car has its one or two issues). AWD is bulletproof in these though, very little to worry about. Otherwise, friend is a mechanic and has only had good things to say about the 4.0 in the Jeep...just don't pin it all the time your mileage will okay, not the best but not too shabby considering what your options are. If you're going with new tires too (snows or all-season), don't go wide (or wider than stock). Yes they give float in snow but you don't want to float on snow on a road; you want skinny to "dig" down to the pavement/dirt/gravel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hilux Posted January 15, 2011 Report Share Posted January 15, 2011 My current Subaru is an '05 Legacy GT. The computer is re-programed, so it's producing ~300hp and 315ft-lbs at the wheels. Great car...that would be a blast to drive! Was on my short list but hard to find a decent one (with low kms) when looking. It's not a Spec B is it? queequeg, one thing to note if you're looking into the Subie sedans at all is that the back seats don't fold down...only a dinky pass-through. I could be mistaken so someone correct me if I'm wrong. Perhaps this has changed the last few years....? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dingbat Posted January 15, 2011 Report Share Posted January 15, 2011 Wow, that's outstanding! That thing has consumption of a small car! Nah.... My small car gets 37mpg. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powdahbonz Posted January 15, 2011 Report Share Posted January 15, 2011 jose..I have a 98 Subaru Outback Limited that has a 2.2 Liter, instead of the 2.5 liter boxer. To Hilux and Blue B's points, the head gaskets did have issues on the 2.5. We had a 2000 OB that had it and fortunately was covered by warranty when it went...too bad it was totaled by a sleeping driver when they hit it head on as it was parked on the street 6 months later. The 2.2 didn't have the issues the 2.5 did so you have many that will buy subies that blow the HG and swap in the 2.2...that's what happened to the one I drive now. I liked the snow handling better of the 2000 OB but the earlier models have a nice advantage which is under the hood, a fuse for the FWD (front-wheel drive) so if you're really that anal retentive about mpg, you can go from all-wheel drive to FWD. 175,000k on the car, 130k on the engine...no major issues..all normal maint. stuff. Having had Jeeps, not a big fan of their durability-I had a 97 Grand Cherokee and at 100k, things started going left and right-serpentine belts, power steering pumps, ball joints, $4g in about 1.5 years..waived bye-bye to that. IMHO, go Subie...I'll probably sell this after Spring and get another Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John E Posted January 18, 2011 Report Share Posted January 18, 2011 Jose - my 2 cents: I have lived in Colorado most of my life and have never owned an AWD. In recent times, I have driven FWD cars with good winter tires. In spite of what the truck/SUV commercials advertise, If I'm stuck in the mountians, it's because I'm stuck in a long line of traffic. I think Subarus are good cars but they do command a premium around here. Can I bash through a 4 foot drift? - no. But getting to the ski areas around here rarely requires that. The highways get plowed pretty well but can be quite slippery which stops many drivers ahead of me which stops me. If the roads are slick enough that you can't stop or steer, shouldn't you find that out while you are accelerating? A woman on the news last night was disappointed that her brand new SUV was having to be towed because it wasn't a total solution to bad mountain driving conditions. If you can find a reliable FWD car with a manual transmission (far simpler and more reliable than automatics) and keep fairly new good winter tires on it, you're unlikely to have problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newcarver Posted January 18, 2011 Report Share Posted January 18, 2011 Nissan Pathfinder. I have an 07 SE. Has factory cross bar on roof. Flick a switch for 4x4. Gets decent mpg 21-22 on highway. Seats 7. Built on Titan truck frame. Lots of torque and power. 6000 lbs towing capacity. High ground clearance. Snows here in CO alot. Rarely even have to use the 4x4 with all weather tires. Just during deep snow or very steep climb. Offroadable. It is big but drives like a smaller vehicle and has great visibility all around. I have logged a lot of miles driving over passes to get to the mountain this season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hilux Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 Hey queequeg, any more progress? You been looking at any more cars/suv's? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hilux Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 If you can find a reliable FWD car with a manual transmission (far simpler and more reliable than automatics) and keep fairly new good winter tires on it, you're unlikely to have problems. Very true. I've always owned FWD with winters that were standard/stick (b/c comparatively subies were a little more costly by 3-4g's for something of the same gen) and have never had a problem. Might not be able to recover from a emergency maneuver as well as an AWD subie (or other) and a little slower from a dead stop but just invest in some decent snows and forget about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobdea Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 Wow, that's outstanding! That thing has consumption of a small car! I knew that boxer engines were more economical, but that much... Thanks for schooling me. Anyone wants to trade a Subi for a nicelly beat up Jeep? :D ;) 25 mpg is still ***in' terrible. the jetta TDI wagon gets around 40 on the highway. http://wot.motortrend.com/epa-sets-mpg-rating-of-2009-volkswagen-jetta-tdi-1059.html even the larger and much older mercedes wagons like 240D get somewhat better mileage. given I mention all diesels but generally you go through way less fuel with diesel. compare most trucks for example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
queequeg Posted January 21, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 Hey queequeg, any more progress? You been looking at any more cars/suv's? I'm still watching this thread. Right now subaru legacys and the cherokee are still what seem to make the most sense. I'm not going to be buying this until the summer though so I have plenty of time to think about it. I really appreciate all of the useful information that people have posted here; it's been a long time since I owned/bought a car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John E Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 Around here if you're looking at a Subaru or Cherokee for under $4k, it will be pretty old (mid to late 90s) and likely have a lot of miles. A FWD drive car in the same price range will be newer and fewer miles. Manual transmissions are getting harder to find but an old automatic transmission can be a real money sink. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dingbat Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 Have you ever considered a helicopter Jose? Think about it. I mean, really, really think about it?:rolleyes::D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dingbat Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 25 mpg is still ***in' terrible. the jetta TDI wagon gets around 40 on the highway. Will it get 40mpg with 4 studded snows, three passengers, two dogs, all the relevant luggage for a 10 day trip and a pile of Christmas presents? Then add all wheel drive to that package and driving 80mph. I was pretty happy with 25mpg. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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