Deeluxe Track 700T heel lift problems

[emptypie]

Got the boots used in very good condition. Initial fit up was good. First time out and actually knowing how to carve I can feel my back foot's heel lift slightly inside the boot on edge transfers. Almost caught me off guard but I kinda adapted to it, still annoying. All of the straps (excluding toe) are absolutely maxed out. I remolded the liners and it improved slightly.

My question is: I have a 3d printer and software, is it a wise idea to make some wedges to put under my heels to fix the problem? Any other solutions?

Thanks

[lonbordin]

Not much of heel pocket in those Deeluxe boots.  Pull the liner then look in any other ski boot or hardboot.

An esteemed person once called it a rocket silo.  

Under isn't the issue. 

[GeoffV]

Sounds like UPZ would be a better fit for you, they have a tighter heel pocket. But since you just got them, I had the same boot and put a wedge in the rear foot which helped for a while. 

[Jarcode]

I had this issue on my 700Ts, fixed the issue with wedges and some extra padding around the ankle, nice and snug now.

[Eastsiiiide]

 

18 minutes ago, Jarcode said:

wedges and some extra padding around the ankle

That's great to hear Jarcode, and I think it's worth asking how one actually adds padding to a boot to increase heel hold. 

You're talking about adhering foam to the outside of the liner, like in this diagram, right? 

Source: Salomon shop manual, 2006/7 

The "shim to the top of the liner" remedy they suggest is interesting, though I'm not sure exactly where they mean for the placement. 

And the last thing in the list, a heel lift, would be something like Adjust-A-Lift, a little soft wedge to go inside the liner.  I believe heel lift = wedge in the previous comments.

The compounding factor I find with heel movement is that it makes one want to to crank down the instep buckle, which can help hold the heel down a bit, but creates new problems. 

[daveo]

@emptypie

Deeluxe + heel lift are pretty much synonymous for a lot of people.

I'd try on a different brand of boots if I were you.

[daveo]

Mountain Slope could be an alternative with better heel lock.

[dredman]

This kit can help get the heel to lock in better. The foam sticks to the inside shell of the boot. 
 

https://www.yyzcanuck.com/shop/boots/deeluxe-fit-set/

[b0ardski]

I've had great success with boot fitters foam like the (out of stock) YYZ kit above!! Intuition makes a kit also. A strip on either side of the achilles and around the ankle knobs on the liner, maybe a pad between top of instep and boot tongue.

 possibly combined with a wedge, any good skiboot fitter could help

[barryj]

If your boot is even a little too big no matter of wading and stuffing will help imo.

A lot of riders go 1 full size down or more in fitting boots, essentially because your liners will pack out and you will end up with extra room anyway.

My street shoe size is 12-13 depending on manufacture....but my Deeluxe 425 Pros boots are 28.5 or 10.5s

Tight in the beginning but now I can ride all day in them no problem....and No Heel Lift!

[TimW]

If you don't want heel lift you should not pull them up / stand on your toes......

Admitted, Deeluxe boots do not provide the best heel lock. But when I pull up my heel, it is mostly bad technique/tensing up when having a poor day.

You should mainly load the front of your boot through the cuff. Lean against the cuff, it is there for a reason. Doing so , not only do you not pull your heel up, but it also pushes your heel backward in the pocket, helping locking it.

Pressing your toes is only for  corrections in the pressure on the front of your boot. The main pressure should come from the cuff.

 

Edited February 7, 2022 by TimW

[emptypie]

Thanks for all of the input, it is appreciated. I am an absolute beginner so I think I'll start with a heel shim/wedge/lift but I'm not opposed to upgrading boots in the future.

Interesting point about the technique, I did find that I eventually adjusted to the looseness when carving but it still felt sloppy when doing a stop or sideslip. Felt like catching an edge would be more likely with the vagueness.

[Jarcode]

17 hours ago, Eastsiiiide said:

 

That's great to hear Jarcode, and I think it's worth asking how one actually adds padding to a boot to increase heel hold. 

You're talking about adhering foam to the outside of the liner, like in this diagram, right? 

Source: Salomon shop manual, 2006/7 

The "shim to the top of the liner" remedy they suggest is interesting, though I'm not sure exactly where they mean for the placement. 

And the last thing in the list, a heel lift, would be something like Adjust-A-Lift, a little soft wedge to go inside the liner.  I believe heel lift = wedge in the previous comments.

The compounding factor I find with heel movement is that it makes one want to to crank down the instep buckle, which can help hold the heel down a bit, but creates new problems. 

I actually have a hard wedge outside of the liner for heel lift. Got them from a ski shop, and although they don't run very long and probably worsen arch support for my foot, I am rather flat-footed to begin with. For padding, I addded some butterfly-shaped foam pads around the top of my foot and ankle... but I have rather small ankles and wanted an exceptionally tight fit. I go through a similar ritual of resolving heel lift issues in inline skates and soft snowboard boots.

I highly doubt the specific padding situation for my boot is going to be of relevance to other people, since I actually am riding without footbeds at the moment (any attempt to use one so far has caused extreme pain). Next season I intend to replace my liners and see if I can get custom footbeds with some built-in heel lift instead, but I'm probably sticking with the 700T shells.
 

7 hours ago, emptypie said:

Thanks for all of the input, it is appreciated. I am an absolute beginner so I think I'll start with a heel shim/wedge/lift but I'm not opposed to upgrading boots in the future.

Interesting point about the technique, I did find that I eventually adjusted to the looseness when carving but it still felt sloppy when doing a stop or sideslip. Felt like catching an edge would be more likely with the vagueness.

Had the same issue the first couple days trying the boots. Personally, I've realized I prefer exceptionally stiff setups even in the hardbooting world, and no amount of technique would really mitigate how unpleasant it feels to have my foot move even the slightest in the liner.

[TimW]

22 hours ago, emptypie said:

 

Interesting point about the technique, I did find that I eventually adjusted to the looseness when carving but it still felt sloppy when doing a stop or sideslip. Felt like catching an edge would be more likely with the vagueness.

I did not mean that you should accept a loose fit, definitely not.  Just saying that technique can be a big factor in heel lift.

[Jack M]

On 2/7/2022 at 12:55 PM, emptypie said:

I did find that I eventually adjusted to the looseness when carving but it still felt sloppy

It is.  Technique only goes so far to compensate for it.  Deeluxe is notorious for heel lift with many people.  Others find a good fit in Deeluxe.  Heel hold is a critical factor.

If yyzcanuck is out of stock of the fitting pads, try here:

https://www.tognar.com/ski-boot-fitting

[pokkis]

For some cases this works around liner

https://shop-deeluxe.com/lace-trim-heel-harness.html

Edited February 8, 2022 by pokkis

[weather_nerd]

I have the exact same issue. I got T700's after trying UPZ's that were way too narrow, even after professional bootfitting. I reduced volume in the Deeluxes using shims under the liners and dealt with heel lift using butterfly pads around the achilles area:

https://www.tognar.com/boot-fitting-foam-ankle-wrap-pads-1-8-pr/

I also ordered heel lifts to reduce volume further. So far the butterly pads make a big difference and I'm hoping the heel lifts will make everything super snug.

 

[tdifan_2003]

On 2/6/2022 at 7:07 PM, emptypie said:

Got the boots used in very good condition. Initial fit up was good. First time out and actually knowing how to carve I can feel my back foot's heel lift slightly inside the boot on edge transfers. Almost caught me off guard but I kinda adapted to it, still annoying. All of the straps (excluding toe) are absolutely maxed out. I remolded the liners and it improved slightly.

My question is: I have a 3d printer and software, is it a wise idea to make some wedges to put under my heels to fix the problem? Any other solutions?

Thanks

I am actually surprised I did not see anyone asked about proper sizing. Or maybe I didn't see it :(. 

Are you in the proper size boot?

[Eastsiiiide]

And the other obvious question is have you set up the bindings right?  This is likely to include some heel height increase on your back foot, and re-reading your original statement I'm guessing this is what you meant by 3D printing some wedges.  I misunderstood until a few posts down that you are just starting out. So the answer is yes, if you haven't done so yet you need to address your binding setup before you can even determine how much of a heel slippage issue you have. Have you gone down this wonderful nerdhole, for example?

https://beckmannag.com/hardboot-snowboarding/hardboot-binding-configuration

[SunSurfer]

@emptypieYou're a newbie to this? How have you setup your F2 bindings in terms of toe and heel lift? How have you set the cuff relative to shell position in your front and rear boots? Do you have a spring system in your boots?

Boot shell design and technique are critical. But all of these things may also contribute to or help improve your rear heel lift problem.

[emptypie]

The boot fit is perfect length and width wise but I feel like I could use a 3-5mm thick footbed as my heel and toe have up and down wiggle room.

I have F2 intec Titanium Bindings with the standard heel lift kit on the back foot plus both bindings canted inward. I'm not sure how a proper setup feels but it seems ok. I'll take a look at that link. Also I meant 3d printing pieces to go under the liner in the boot, I don't trust my prints to hold my feet onto a board haha.

I had the boots in a neutral shell position for all previous rides, the most recent time I was out I tried playing with max and minimum forward lean. I noticed a slight improvement with maximum lean in but it felt harder to lock in the heelside. Also boots did not want to come of my feet. Does a spring system add variable lean?

[Jack M]

11 hours ago, emptypie said:

I have F2 intec Titanium Bindings with the standard heel lift kit on the back foot plus both bindings canted inward

Try removing the inward cants.  Almost nobody does that anymore.  It was popular in the 90s.  Like the practice of human sacrifice, it seemed like a good idea at the time.

Purchase another F2 lift kit so you can try toe lift on the front foot and heel lift on the back foot.  Many people find this more comfortable.  Especially helpful if your front thigh is burning out.

[SunSurfer]

Echo Jack's comment about removing your canting, and having front foot toe lift and rear foot heel lift.

Rear foot heel lift (your original problem) will happen for at least a couple of common reasons.

1/ you get unbalanced by a bump and your bodyweight gets thrown forward pulling your rear heel up.

2/ you are using an edging technique that emphasises lots of either toe pressure in your rear foot OR rear knee drive in and forwards.

Those (2/) combined with the relatively wide heel shell design of the Deeluxe boots leads to rear heel lift.

Appropriate binding setup makes applying good technique easier.

On an alpine board your front leg and rear leg start off bent in different ways, and move through different ranges of movement as you carve turns. Therefore your binding and boot setup are different for each foot, not the same. Your front lower leg starts off much more vertical, while your rear lower leg starts off tilted forwards significantly. When you raise and lower your centre of mass to absorb bumps your rear leg moves through quite a range of movement while your front lower leg remains relatively vertical. A spring system helps your rear leg in particular to move through that range against a controlled resistance.

We're, @Jack M and I, both assuming you are running binding angles in the 55-65 degree range. Unless you have some sort of severe pigeon toe problem your front foot should be the same angle as the rear or up to 5 degrees more.

From here on this is my opinion. Your stance length on a modern alpine board should be in the range of your barefoot inside leg measurement divided by 1.6 to 1.8. And probably more towards the 1.6 end of that range.

Finally a technique tip. A clean carve needs the edge by your front foot and your rear foot to be tilted at close the same angle. If you try to carve by strongly emphasising pressure on one foot you will tend to skid your turns. While heel side turns definitely need you to feel pressure on the lateral side of the sole and heel of your front foot, and toeside turns need you to feel pressure on lateral toes and sole of your rear foot, you also need to feel sole pressure through your other foot as well.

So, heelside: pressure (and balance over) the little toe side sole and heel of your front foot, AND to a lesser degree the big toe side sole of your rear foot.

Toeside: pressure (and balance over) the little toe side and sole of your rear foot, AND to a lesser degree the big toe side sole of your front foot.

Feeling your edge in that way should help you maintain a consistent edge angle, stay balanced between your bindings, and reduce your tendency to lift your rear heel.

 

[emptypie]

You're both very helpful thank you. I actually ordered a pair of heel/toe lifts when I got the bindings so I will remove the cant wedges and install the toe lift on the front binding and update you.

[emptypie]

Adding the toe lift on the front foot and removing the inward cant wedges made a world of difference carving! Boots still need the padding as a 4mm footbed shim did not help. Only really notice the boots after a long session.

Many thanks!