Comapedrosa Posted January 8, 2018 Report Share Posted January 8, 2018 Got to spend 4 days at Park City with my AWESOME new Proteus 170 cm. Conditions were far from ideal, with basically solid ice under a thin layer of scraped-up crystals... but I noticed that my edge hold on the heel side was magic, while I would literally wipe out on the toe side. It could be the ice of course, but then why the difference between heel and toe-side? I'm no carving god like many here, but have been doing this for a while - losing edge hold like this is a first. Plus the Proteus should be like a knife! This does not happen on my Coiler Subby v2 with the exact same setup and boots. Just in case, here are more details about my setup: Donek Proteus 170cm, 20cm waist, 11m radius, 50cm stance (centered)(yes, short for my 6ft height), F2 Ti bindings with the classic small front toe and larger back heel lifts, 55/50 angles, some Gilmour bias, UPZ boots. I don't think this is a turn initiation issue. I turn and carve fine, it's just that mid-turn (on ice) the edge loses hold and skids away from under my feet - not very trust inspiring and as a result I committed much less than on my heel side. Also, when not on ice, the issue was practically gone. Any help would be much appreciated as I need to fix this :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurch Posted January 8, 2018 Report Share Posted January 8, 2018 Whats the waist on your stubby? Could you be booting out? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comapedrosa Posted January 8, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2018 Good point, but the Coiler is 21cm, and I really don't have significant overhang (didn't measure, but I bet I can tilt the board 80 degrees on a flat surface). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurch Posted January 8, 2018 Report Share Posted January 8, 2018 Maybe do a quick check on your boot size with the Donek calc. (https://www.donek.com/width-calculator/) & see what the suggested width is - more than 20 and you might need to up the rear angle. Or use this template :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comapedrosa Posted January 8, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2018 Lurch, thank you for the link - will start doing some math. in the meantime: I’ve gotten used to pressing only my back toe for the toe-side carve... in theory, do I get more hold on ice with the back toes closer to the edge or with a slight under-hang? How do I plant that knife into the ice?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SunSurfer Posted January 8, 2018 Report Share Posted January 8, 2018 Probably get more hold by engaging more of the edge. A carve begins from the nose of the board initiating a groove for the rest of the edge to follow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comapedrosa Posted January 8, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2018 SunSurfer... that is a good reminder - so for me that should translate into less Gilmour bias, right? I.e. center the front boot more so the toes get closer to the edge, yes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SunSurfer Posted January 8, 2018 Report Share Posted January 8, 2018 Just make both feet do some of the work on both heel and toeside. The emphasis is more to the front heel on heelside and rear toes on toes side, but not to the exclusion of the other foot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Donnelly Posted January 8, 2018 Report Share Posted January 8, 2018 (edited) http://www.bomberonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/The-Toeside-Problem.pdf Edited January 8, 2018 by Pat Donnelly 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Brammer aka PSR Posted January 8, 2018 Report Share Posted January 8, 2018 You note that 'this doesn't happen' on the Coiler, using the same binding setup?! Then, it sounds like one edge on that Proteus is in need of a good looking-over, by a Tuner. One thing to also have looked at is whether that Proteus is actually Base-Flat across the beam. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corey Posted January 8, 2018 Report Share Posted January 8, 2018 A picture would help. Are you reaching for the snow? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertAlexander Posted January 8, 2018 Report Share Posted January 8, 2018 (edited) 1) mid-turn (on ice) the edge loses hold and skids away from under my feet Mid turn looses edge, Once you start to load the board, Try going thru a toe side very slowly, and see what happens, then try just a bit faster, and see, keep increasing the toe side speed until you see where this is happening, could be your riding technique or set up angles. When increasing From slow speed to a higher speed, it will usually lose edge at the bottom of the carve, where the load is the greatest. 2)as a result I committed much less than on my heel side That seems to be you 3)when not on ice, the issue was practically gone Possibly an ice issue, so try to use your toe side leg muscles much more, toe side (as well as heel side) on ice is a balance of power game, and takes lots of muscle work on each turn. There is not any relaxing at any time in the turn. The funny part here is you state your heel side is fine. Again, try a slow toe side, and get the feel of it, and once you are comfortable, increase your speed a bit, and go from there..... Edited January 8, 2018 by RobertAlexander Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowrider Posted January 8, 2018 Report Share Posted January 8, 2018 The key word you mention is " trust inspiring " Riding centred on ice is something i find is critical along with other inputs that you try to control ie: peddling, staying low etc. ( You can get away with bad technique or sloppy balance when riding good groom not so on ice ) Riding my Coiler AM on ice has the same results you mention however riding it with the plate changes the way the board hols on ice along with the trust and commitment on my part that the board and plate are going to perform well on less than ideal conditions. Committing to the turn with the correct form and confidence help set you up for success. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ursle Posted January 8, 2018 Report Share Posted January 8, 2018 Ice fine tunes your setup. the upz boots are a little heel high, what are your forward lean Characteristics? Having a great heelside and no toe side sounds like, well the boots are leaned forward and being upz with high heels, so you lean back against the boots, great balance, you lean forward and don’t get the edge engagement needed, I’d set up with the boots more upright, lose a little rear edge engagement, gain a little front edge engagement , fine tuning for ice. a set of cateck bindings would be excellent here for fine tuning balance on ice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technick Posted January 8, 2018 Report Share Posted January 8, 2018 Board stifness, is the Coiler softer? Maybe you change edge pressure foward and back too much during your frontside turns? Is it the front or the back of the board that looses edge? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technick Posted January 8, 2018 Report Share Posted January 8, 2018 Sidecut difference between the two boards might be a factor, the Stubby is (usualy) 13/14m, the Proteus 11m. I prefer longer sidecuts on ice... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted January 8, 2018 Report Share Posted January 8, 2018 Sounds like boot-out. To eliminate this as a possibility, put your board on a flat surface, angle your bindings such that with your boots attached you can run a deck of cards along the edge and not hit your boots or bindings. Know what I mean? If it's not boot-out, see the article Pat posted. The Proteus is an advanced to expert level board. High demand, high reward. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonny Posted January 8, 2018 Report Share Posted January 8, 2018 I'm on the Proteus 180 and initially noticed something similar. I wasn't skidding but about 2/3 of the way through a toe-side turn the track got just a little wider. No sketch - I could still see the hard line where the edge was carving, but the track widened slightly, so clearly the whole board wasn't going through the same spot. I did a little binding tweakage but it didn't help so I went back to what I had been using, just a little wider. After thinking it over I decided that the nose of the board was getting deflected upward relative to the path, probably due to my weight driving forward toward the nose for too long. The whole issue went away when I deliberately stepped forward onto the front foot to start the turn but then let the board work its way back under my body (feels like I'm back-footed but I'm not - really just centered) through the finish of the turn. Now the big issue is just how to deal with all the speed I've got coming out of the turn - if I don't do a little check just before every third or fourth turn my legs give out from all the Gs... Before doing much else if I were you I'd definitely check the board for flat and for edge bevels. I'm at 1° base, 2° side with no de-tune which feels about right for hard snow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted January 8, 2018 Report Share Posted January 8, 2018 15 minutes ago, Jonny said: Before doing much else if I were you I'd definitely check the board for flat and for edge bevels. I'm at 1° base, 2° side with no de-tune which feels about right for hard snow. Yes, whenever I get a new Donek it comes to me in a very raw state, because they know us alpine types are picky and will get our boards tuned immediately with our desired bevels. I've ridden them before and after the initial tune and it's like riding two completely different boards. Maybe the OP's board is in a similar state. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
workshop7 Posted January 8, 2018 Report Share Posted January 8, 2018 It could be the tune. It could be Boot out. It could be your technique. I had a similar issue the first time I rode my MK on a really icy day. After the first couple of runs when I realized that the board was good to hold on the conditions I got aggressive and tried to lay into my turns much harder. All of a sudden, I’m pushing out on every turn, loosing the heel side to a washout before the end of the turn and having some of my toe sides chatter while the board refused to hook up. As I got tired and frustrated the rest of the day went to hell. It took me a few more visits to those conditions to realize I was the problem. I was letting my knees come apart, not just a little bit but a lot, on both turns which was twisting the board. I was effecting the board’s geometry and its relationship to the surface in a bad way, taking away the boards great edge hold characteristics. I fixed my issue by driving my front knee into the snow on toe side turns and my back knee on heel side turns. I’m not pushing me knees together or towards each other, just swinging the knee toward the snow on the inside on the turn. Immediately like riding a different board. Rider input can not only make a board do what it is not normally able to do, it can also stop a board from doing what it is supposed to be able to do. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim_s Posted January 8, 2018 Report Share Posted January 8, 2018 Turns out there's a video, where Sean explains how to use the guide that Lurch linked to. (I hadn't seen that tool before, so was curious how to use it.) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZb1gDrYf0U Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SunSurfer Posted January 8, 2018 Report Share Posted January 8, 2018 1 hour ago, workshop7 said: I was letting my knees come apart, not just a little bit but a lot, on both turns which was twisting the board. I was effecting the board’s geometry and its relationship to the surface in a bad way, taking away the boards great edge hold characteristics. I fixed my issue by driving my front knee into the snow on toe side turns and my back knee on heel side turns. I’m not pushing me knees together or towards each other, just swinging the knee toward the snow on the inside on the turn. Immediately like riding a different board. Rider input can not only make a board do what it is not normally able to do, it can also stop a board from doing what it is supposed to be able to do. Workshop7, I'm with you! I ride like this all the time, and have done for the last 4 years. I describe it as "driving the knee on the outside of the turn towards the snow". If you're turning to the right, the left knee is on the outside and vice versa. The description/principle is then the same for toe & heel side turns. It is not talked about much on Bomber, as most riders emphasise the heel and toe across the board technique. Compared to the heel and toe, it feels like I ride more out of the side of my boots, and use fore and aft movement more for shock absorption The effect is not just to hold the edge angle along the length of the board. The knee movement brings the line of the pelvis and shoulders more across the line of the board, and creates angulation at the waist, making the upper body more upright, increasing downforce on the edge. The technique is used by a few at the highest level of alpine snowboard racing. Vic Wild, Ester Ledecka, and I think Roland Fischnaller can be seen to drive their knees in this way. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim_s Posted January 8, 2018 Report Share Posted January 8, 2018 Interesting to hear you guys discuss this 'driving with the knee' thing (exactly what I call it to myself, too! :-) I've arrived a the same conclusion - when I think about driving with the knee - both pushing it over the board toward the snow, and even thinking about driving it around in the direction that I'm turning (so, I'm LFF, so on my toe side, I'm railing the board over w/ the left knee, and also thinking about swiveling that knee sort of down and back a little, as that's the direction I want the knee to go as the board carves, if that makes sense), I find that I get *much* higher board angles and deeper carves when I'm conscious of this. Works similarly on the heel side, but with the right knee for me. I just assumed this was some physical or mental oddity with me. <:-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charliechocolate Posted January 8, 2018 Report Share Posted January 8, 2018 1 hour ago, SunSurfer said: If you're turning to the right, the left knee is on the outside and vice versa. I'm trying to picture this but I'm confused. Do you mean outside of the turn? How does that create pressure? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted January 8, 2018 Report Share Posted January 8, 2018 2 hours ago, SunSurfer said: It is not talked about much on Bomber, as most riders emphasise the heel and toe across the board technique. Where do you see that? If that were true then you'd see a lot more people advocating for asyms. Driving the knees has been discussed ad nauseum here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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