Need help w/ toe-side wipeout (new Proteus on ice)

[billyt.]

Sunsurfer, nice video showing different styles.  would stance angles effect their preferred body position.  shallow angle with hips aligned with long axis? Steeper angle, hips forward facing?

 

[BlueB]

54 minutes ago, billyt. said:

Sunsurfer, nice video showing different styles.  would stance angles effect their preferred body position.  shallow angle with hips aligned with long axis? Steeper angle, hips forward facing?

 

Whatever stance angles you ride, the hips and shoulders should be pointing where your toes are pointed, in neutral position. From there you rotate, or not, as needed. 

[bigwavedave]

Has anyone mentioned Angulation! Sounds like it's not boot-out or edge tune. 

 If you reach down for the snow as in Sunsurfer's and Jim_s's avatars you're more likely lose your edge on ice. Reaching for the outside edge as in Workshop7's and Jack's avatars keeps your edge hold more secure. Anyone who learns to ride on ice knows how unforgiving it is of poor technique whereas soft snow is very forgiving of a more relaxed technique.

Also, the advice of really focusing on heel or toe pressure from both feet with shoulders/hips facing same direction as your feet is helpful.

Edited January 10, 2018 by bigwavedave

[SunSurfer]

A couple more things always make me think that the underlying principle being emphasised is using the heel and toe to hold the board on edge.

1/ Minimising binding angles (i.e. moving towards 0 degrees) as the board increases in width so that the heel and toe of the boot are as close as possible to the edge of the board.
2/ Gilmour bias, which is taking 1. to the maximum for the front heel and the rear toe.

The only way these make sense is if the heel and toe are being used. They make little sense for the rider making extensive use of lateral boot pressure to control the angle of the board.

[SunSurfer]

I love this video from SES 2015.

Trent is the first rider. He is used as a positive example in the Separate Zee Knees article. He is one of my exemplar riders. I love watching his fluid, powerful and forward facing style. In fact if you watch the first 6 riders in this video riders 1, 3, 4, & 5 all ride in the forward facing style that the introduction to Separate Zee Knees encourages us to move to. Steve Recsky & Corey Dyck are riders 3 & 4, and although I've ridden and drunk beer with rider 5 for the life of me I can't remember his name at present (someone will know him, put me out of my misery). Look at the way their shoulder, hips, and knees work together.

Rider 2 & 6 (Jim Callen) provide some contrast. Jim, in particular carves really well, but their knees are more widely separated,  and a result is to rotate their hips more along the board especially on heelside turns.

If you think about it, a natural consequence of rotating the pelvis and body to face more toward the front of the board is to tend to bring the knees closer together. Not almost locked together like this snowboard Super G video from 1990, but closer than many current racers use. 

 

Edited January 11, 2018 by SunSurfer

[Comapedrosa]

Just wow, awesome discussion - and examples. Thx guys!!

[lonbordin]

On 1/8/2018 at 8:37 PM, SunSurfer said:

Both styles work, and work well. 

 

In the video Vic Wild and Jonghyun Kim can be seen to ride the way we describe, with the knee on the outside of the turn driven across the line of the board.

The other riders ride in the style Jack expounds.

This video is great, thanks... here's the parent video on Vimeo.

 

Edited February 9, 2018 by lonbordin

[carvedog]

 

On 1/8/2018 at 10:15 PM, barryj said:

I totally understand and emulate SunSufer's example.... but sure seems like there are certain  terms like  "driving" (the knees) that really get's peoples undies in a bunch around here!    Sure seems like fighting words for some reason ?..... like using the term "Gilmour" Bias  ??

My explanation of our mutual style/technique is I "throw" my front knee toward the snow/turn on  toe side turns, etc....because it really feels like a literal and lateral throwing my knee towards/into that turn................just saying.   

Instead of 'throwing' my knee, particularly in 'firm' conditions I will place my hand on the outside of front knee and push it toward the snow going thru the turn on toeside.  On heelside hand pushes on back knee towards centerline of board. This also does great things for keeping shoulders level throughout the turn. I like it. 

On 1/10/2018 at 7:40 AM, Beckmann AG said:

Odds are good you're mounted one or two holes too far back on the new board, and the front of the board isn't bending enough to support your efforts on the toeside.

 

 I had this same thought. 

[lowrider]

In an effort to try to bring everyone together in their analysis of riding technique would it be possible to translate their input to reflect how they are pressuring their boot cuffs rather than all their other body parts. Perhaps too simplistic for some but i think it would be more precise since in most instances one is striving to keep the upper body balanced  while at the same time directing inputs by manipulating the available leverage in their legs through their boots. Just wondering ?

[billyt.]

doesn't even look like those Kessler boards are bending?

[Beckmann AG]

1 hour ago, lowrider said:

In an effort to try to bring everyone together in their analysis of riding technique would it be possible to translate their input to reflect how they are pressuring their boot cuffs rather than all their other body parts. Perhaps too simplistic for some but i think it would be more precise since in most instances one is striving to keep the upper body balanced  while at the same time directing inputs by manipulating the available leverage in their legs through their boots. Just wondering ?

Would be interesting for all involved to submit their assessment of how they think a snowboard functions. That might clear up a lot of confusion, and provide some insight into thought process. 

 

[SunSurfer]

5 hours ago, Beckmann AG said:

Would be interesting for all involved to submit their assessment of how they think a snowboard functions. That might clear up a lot of confusion, and provide some insight into thought process. 

 

@lowrider   linking you in Pat :)

Assuming you mean "how they think a snowboard functions" in a carved turn?

My understanding is to begin from the board in a flat glide across the snow surface, neither edge engaged. The riders centre of mass is over the centre of their base of support
The rider then (a) tilts the board slightly onto one edge and (b) moves their centre of mass slightly forward of the centre of the base of support.
The effect of this is for the nose edge to begin to penetrate the snow surface and create a groove in the snow. 
The effect of the slight tilt and the SCR of the board is for the board to bend slightly and the side of the snow groove to push the board into the beginning of the turn.
The turn will be carved if the rider controls the rest of board edge to follow in the groove. If the riders centre of mass is too much towards either end of the board, the other end is likely to disengage from the groove. If the board twists too much along its' length for whatever reason the board edge will disengage from the groove, depending upon how the edge angle varies along the length of the board.
The rider will not fall as long as (c) their centre of mass remains over their base of support and (d) the snow is strong enough to support the turning forces generated and (e) that the relationship between the rider's centre of mass and the angled board surface is such that sufficient downforce is generated to keep the board in the groove.  (e) will be aided by body angulation upward relative to snowboard inclination.

By increasing the angle of board inclination, the resulting SCR (created by designed SCR and the bending of the board along its' length) of the turn tightens up. 

To end the turn the edge must be disengaged from the groove. There are effective ways of achieving this by disengaging the nose, or tail (racer's stivot turn). The conventional way of achieving nose edge disengagement is to move the centre of mass slightly behind the centre of base of support, and flatten out the tilt of the board, before the momentary flat glide, before the other nose edge is engaged to begin the next turn.

If the snow is strong enough, and the edge angle well held, not a lot of edge length is required to support a human being in a steeply angled turn. Consider the example of Olympic short track speed skaters as an extreme example.

[lowrider]

That's the kind of detail my left handed brain can follow. In theory that's how it works on good groom. When it gets challenging (bad groom) one tends to get bent all out of shape trying to second guess our own best instincts. When confronting ice the tendency is to stiffens ones posture and perhaps get slightly rigid . The exact opposite of what you should be doing. Get low stay balanced that is if all other factors are aligned. Board is sharp,boots aren't overhanging,board angles of bindings correct (toe and heel lift correct) which greatly affects fore  aft centering  on board  bindings centered correctly on board  etc. I think the greatest challenge we all face on ice is that we don't practice riding on it enough. Who practices drifting your car around an ice and bare pavement corner it is simply counterintuitive and not the right tool for the job a snowboard however is .

 

[Beckmann AG]

^^

Good to see someone's doing the homework.

In simpler terms, was thinking along the lines of how (and how much) the board is tilted, and how much (and where along the length) the board is 'bent' into reverse camber.

There are a number of ways to accomplish these two primary inputs, but the hows and whys may lead to more or less versatile results.

On 2/9/2018 at 7:00 PM, SunSurfer said:

The rider then (a) tilts the board slightly onto one edge and (b) moves their centre of mass slightly forward of the centre of the base of support.

Personal preferences aside, one shouldn't actually have to 'move' forward. This is not to say the rider won't notice a possibly substantial increase in pressure under the front foot, but that should come from the board seeking a path different from the rider's momentum at that particular moment. And so forth.

[Eric Brammer aka PSR]

1 hour ago, Beckmann AG said:

one shouldn't actually have to 'move' forward. This is not to say the rider won't notice a possibly substantial increase in pressure under the front foot, but that should come from the board seeking a path different from the rider's momentum at that particular moment.

As a board, or ski, cuts an Arc along an edge, one's Center-Of-Mass doesn't follow 'the arc', it instead, moves in a different path, both in terms of an Arc, but also Vertically, in regards to the snow surface. Therefore, if one does NOT move 'forward' along the board as it changes edges, one GETS LEFT BEHIND. An Observation...

[SunSurfer]

2 hours ago, Eric Brammer aka PSR said:

As a board, or ski, cuts an Arc along an edge, one's Center-Of-Mass doesn't follow 'the arc', it instead, moves in a different path, both in terms of an Arc, but also Vertically, in regards to the snow surface. Therefore, if one does NOT move 'forward' along the board as it changes edges, one GETS LEFT BEHIND. An Observation...

The 3-D analysis is complicated to say the least. From an overhead drone point of view the rider's COM follows a similar curve but inside the line on the snow. Vertical position above the snow is less relevant in the dynamic setting of the turn, as gravity is just one of the forces the rider must play with and balance. The force of the snow groove side wall pushing the board into its' arc and changing the direction of the rider's COM momentum is the key force. The push back by the rider's COM momentum resisting the direction change must remain over their base of support, otherwise they will fall.

Reference: The Physics of Skiing - Skiing at the Triple Point

from page 98

available for legal download, in a range of formats, for no charge at 

https://archive.org/details/springer_10.1007-978-1-4757-4345-6

I'm of the opinion that their analysis of a snowboard carved turn is deficient, and reveals both the fashions of board construction at the time, as well as that the writers are not snowboarders.

[Beckmann AG]

16 hours ago, SunSurfer said:

Vertical position above the snow is less relevant in the dynamic setting of the turn, as gravity is just one of the forces the rider must play with and balance.

Granted, this is taken out of context, but if 'vertical position' means 'displacement from the surface/plane of action', then it's very (and not less) relevant.

Past, say, trotting speed, a rider's/skier's COM can become the locus of balance, which is to say, a more dependent reference than the snow itself. That said, the path the COM follows with regard to the snow (not the arc of the turn) very much determines how the athlete can manage the energy storage characteristics of the platform, and therefore the movement options for the practical 'base of support'. Which is to say, the feet/board combination.

You can think of a rider's progress as represented by three waveforms. One represents the path of the board through it's various turns, the second the shorter path of the COM with regard to the first waveform, and the third represents the distance of the COM from the snow surface while crafting those turns. The turn radius will dictate the min/max of the latter, but, in general, it's likely to the riders advantage for the third waveform to be fairly flat, regardless of turn radius.

 

 

[SunSurfer]

^ vertical POV only in the sense of in line with the gravitational field of the earth. A well made carved turn almost seems to defy gravity. That's only possible because other powerful force vectors are involved.

Even so, gravity drives the whole process. 

How do we put this all together to improve a riders understanding of the feel of a well made turn?

 

 

[Beckmann AG]

9 hours ago, SunSurfer said:

Even so, gravity drives the whole process. 

How do we put this all together to improve a riders understanding of the feel of a well made turn?

 

Depends a lot on who one is speaking to, I suppose, and how they think.

E.g, you could loosely describe 'gravity' as the voltage, momentum the amperage, the board as  capacitor and the legs as a variable resistor. And you'll get a wave output corresponding to the circuit function.

Athletes only need to know enough to satisfy their goals. Some goals require more, and more specific information, tailored to their life experience and stage of development.

There are many ways to change direction on the 'ski' platform. Given that riding is, for most, a recreational pursuit, a mediocre understanding combined with mimicry is often more than enough to get the particular job done.

Everything else is just esoteric babble.

9 hours ago, SunSurfer said:

vertical POV only in the sense of in line with the gravitational field of the earth. A well made carved turn almost seems to defy gravity. That's only possible because other powerful force vectors are involved.

How we conceptualize an activity generally informs how we execute that activity. While a quality carved turn may seem to defy gravity, it also represents a system in relative harmony. If an athlete uses harmonic interaction as a guiding principle, they'll get a markedly different outcome than another athlete approaching the task from the standpoint of strength, conditioning, and conquest.

 

Edited February 12, 2018 by Beckmann AG

[Rob Stevens]

1 hour ago, Beckmann AG said:

 

There are many ways to change direction on the 'ski' platform. Given that riding is, for most, a recreational pursuit, a mediocre understanding combined with mimicry is often more than enough to get the particular job done.

Everything else is esoteric babble.

When out with the cat groups, people look at noboarding as though it's some kind of magic trick  

I tell them it's simple.

In regular snowboarding, on hardpack, your bindings are there to allow the board to be on an edge when it would otherwise want to sit flat. In powder, the whole base is supported, so the snow takes the place of the binding.

If the board is tilted over, when you push against it, or it is pushed, it will bend. As it bends, it makes part of the turn shape.

If you can follow or lead that shape, you're turning.

 

[Beckmann AG]

5 minutes ago, Rob Stevens said:

I tell them it's simple.

Very much agree.

And yet there are those who can fully clog a football pitch with a broken bicycle.

Figuring out how not to interfere with what a board will do easily, is perhaps the greater part of proficiency.

[Rob Stevens]

11 minutes ago, Beckmann AG said:

Very much agree.

The endorphin release in the moment I read this was remarkable. 

[Beckmann AG]

^Software glitch. Tech is working on it.