Need help w/ toe-side wipeout (new Proteus on ice)

[carvedog]

It doesn't create pressure but creates higher ( and usually earlier for me) edge angles. Earlier means less pressure at the bottom of the turn so less likely to slide.

 

 

[SunSurfer]

3 hours ago, Jack Michaud said:

Where do you see that?  If that were true then you'd see a lot more people advocating for asyms.  Driving the knees has been discussed ad nauseum here.

"Separate Zee Knees". by J Michaud

We're talking about the other knee Jack.

[SunSurfer]

Let me be explicit. The conventional approach, as explained by Jack in the "Separate Zee Knees" tech article is the way the vast majority of FIS alpine snowboard racers ride. The example video below shows the separated knees and the toeside turn being intiated by the rear knee being driven towards the snow, and the heel side turn being initiated by the front knee being driven towards the inside of the turn. On heelside many riders in this style end up with their pelvis aligned along the board length.

What workshop7, jim_s, and I are identifying is that we ride in adifferent style, with a different way of thinking about how we use our bodies to produce a secure and accurate carve. This way is not talked about much here on Bomber. That's why jim_s assumed "this was some physical or mental oddity with me."

Both styles work, and work well. 

 

In the video Vic Wild and Jonghyun Kim can be seen to ride the way we describe, with the knee on the outside of the turn driven across the line of the board.

The other riders ride in the style Jack expounds.

Edited January 9, 2018 by SunSurfer

[jim_s]

SunSurfer notes that many racers tend to ride a particular way (though I'm not entirely sure if its actually riding another way, or just thinking about the leg mechanics in a different way - I need to look at the riders in that video more closely, to note what SunSurfer is pointing out, but I wonder how much its riding differently, and how much of it is just thinking about it differently?) Similarly, I wonder how much of it is training-based - I've never had any training - its been 20+ years of DIY/OJT, never having ridden with another hard-booter, so it stands to reason that I'd have arrived at a different approach to the body mechanics than a trained rider. (I also do not stand myself up as any example of good style or riding to anyone - I think I'm good at what I do (having a blast carving turns), and how I do it works for me, but while I used to run gates in my skiing days, I've never been on a course on a snowboard, nor do anticipate ever doing so.)

Interesting discussion - part of me wants to analyze it all, and part of me wants to not think too hard, and not screw with what works for me, LoL. :-)

[SunSurfer]

I'm a bit like you Jim, an ex skier, who is primarily self taught as a carver, and who found a way of cleanly carving. I can carve the other way but it is not natural to me. I want to find and give voice to rest of us "misfits". Discovering that there were top level riders who ride this way gave me additional validation that the method works more generally than just me.

[Comapedrosa]

What an awesome conversation. Thank you all for your many inputs! This will clearly give me a few hours of good tweaking and carpet riding :-)

 Regarding the last comment about “training”, I recall the feeling in 1991 when I switched to snowboarding: we were all figuring it out and “instruction” just didn’t make any sense...

[barryj]

8 hours ago, SunSurfer said:

 I fixed my issue by driving my front knee into the snow on toe side turns and my back knee on heel side turns

I totally understand and emulate SunSufer's example.... but sure seems like there are certain  terms like  "driving" (the knees) that really get's peoples undies in a bunch around here!    Sure seems like fighting words for some reason ?..... like using the term "Gilmour" Bias  ??

My explanation of our mutual style/technique is I "throw" my front knee toward the snow/turn on  toe side turns, etc....because it really feels like a literal and lateral throwing my knee towards/into that turn................just saying.   

[Comapedrosa]

4 hours ago, SunSurfer said:

The example video below shows the separated knees and the toeside turn being intiated by the rear knee being driven towards the snow, and the heel side turn being initiated by the front knee being driven towards the inside of the turn. On heelside many riders in this style end up with their pelvis aligned along the board length.

What workshop7, jim_s, and I are identifying is that we ride in adifferent style, with a different way of thinking about how we use our bodies to produce a secure and accurate carve. This way is not talked about much here on Bomber. That's why jim_s assumed "this was some physical or mental oddity with me."

This is an awesome dissection of the body movement. No doubt it’s a combo of my miserable technique and my setup. I have clearly been working on the “separate zee knees”/majority? approach, but will now give a good try to throwing my front knee into the toe side turn. In line with that it also seems to make sense to get rid of my Gilmour bias and center the boots. Barryj, SunSurfer, Workshop7, Jim, does that make sense?

Board’s not too narrow and I really don’t think I’m booting out (though those are obvious hypotheses and great suggestions). Also the board was tuned and has sharp 1/2 degree edges.

[barryj]

Hey ComaD       

I personally found Gilmour (oh God , here we go again!)  bias a real game changer for me and my Track 700's and the wider boards (22-23.5 waist's) I ride and still use it. What?  Did I miss something?  Are the Sages saying  _ _ _ _ _ _ _ bias is too old school and to ditch it for conventional "centered" wisdom  ??

As for your race tune...............who did the tune?   somebody in the bay area?   I went thru Three supposedly "Experienced Alpine Board Tuners" up here in Tahoe of all places that made things Worse before I found a legit Alpine tuner! 

[Comapedrosa]

32 minutes ago, barryj said:

Did I miss something?  Are the Sages saying  _ _ _ _ _ _ _ bias is too old school and to ditch it for conventional "centered" wisdom  ??

Oh man, last person you should listen to is me. I’m more confused than you. All I know is that I didn’t cut through ice on my toe side :-)

33 minutes ago, barryj said:

As for your race tune...............who did the tune? 

I asked Sean to do it - he sent it somewhere and charged me extra for it. Said it was the best on the planet and that that’s what the top champions use (thought it would be (just) good enough for me). He guaranteed it would be ready to hit the slopes, which it was (very fast and sharp indeed)

[Lurch]

So @Comapedrosa plenty of great info here, but did it fix your toe side lowsides? (may be too early to tell)

Oh and I freakin love that your board is your avatar and instantly recognizable as unique to you.

[SunSurfer]

Comapedrosa, I wouldn't advise you suddenly try and change your technique completely. Indeed, I more recommend you read the Separate Zee Knees article and appreciate the subtlety of the knee movements Jack talks about. My comment at the beginning of this thread where you had suggested on toeside you were concentrating your weight on the rear toe, and I suggested adjusting the balance so that the rear is still emphasised, but the front foot is doing a little more of the work in keeping the board on edge, that's where I suspect you will make the progress you seek.

One of my discoveries over the years is that I have a collection of great boards, and gradually I learned to ride them. The boards, and my set-up remained the same, but my ability to get them to perform improved. Time spent on the slopes consciously working on technique pays off. 

Edited January 9, 2018 by SunSurfer

[Comapedrosa]

1 minute ago, Lurch said:

So @Comapedrosa plenty of great info here, but did it fix your toe side lowsides? (may be too early to tell)

Very unfortunately it’s way too early :-). Isn’t that what we all do: chat on forums while stuck in the office unable to ride?

2 minutes ago, Lurch said:

Oh and I freakin love that your board is your avatar and instantly recognizable as unique to you.

Thx! Spent a night learning Adobe Illustrator to create that top sheet 

[Comapedrosa]

5 minutes ago, SunSurfer said:

I more recommend you read the Separate Zee Knees article and appreciate the subtlety of the knee movements Jack talks about.

OMG, that article is great but I read it years ago ‘til I was blue in the face. And I re-read it end-to-end before posting...

11 minutes ago, SunSurfer said:

I suggested adjusting the balance so that the rear is still emphasised, but the front foot is doing a little more of the work in keeping the board on edge.

Got it and agree - I don’t think I could radically move off the back toes anyway.

12 minutes ago, SunSurfer said:

Time spent on the slopes consciously working on technique pays of

Yes, I’m with you. Deliberate practice beats any technicality. I’m just a slow learner - but not giving up hope and still working on it (since 1991)...

[Comapedrosa]

BTW, now that I’m in NorCal, I’m going to try to get over my pride and find some help! Looking for a master class in Squaw or Northstar during ski week...

[Eric Brammer aka PSR]

BUT, did you CHECK YOUR BASE and EDGE?!! Note;  I'm usually THE 1st To Jump in with a bit of 'RIDER CORRECTION', as THAT's WHAT I DID for a quarter century! Did I? No, I watched everyone take my spot (Chuckle! and, nice jobs, unpaid Coaches, but, at least, I know you've been reading/watching/listening! so, nifty, nonetheless.) BUT, I noted; YOU'VE an unexplained differential in BOARD Performance; That's not quite 'On You'.It seems to be "another" thing. Please, look at the 'another-things', first. Then, after that, maybe your Toeside habits can be looked into?!  BTW am quite happy with 90% of the feedback I see posted here; it mean that you ALL, as a Group, are Learning, and perhaps even out-performing the 'Coaches/Instructors' that require $90+/yr. to listen to their version of being "qualified" into their Little Click of Snowsports.  WE should, at some point, have a 'ride-off', Them in Hardshells, us in softies, down 3 courses of different features, and see who's left standing. Maybe in Anchorage, AK?!

 

[Aracan]

17 hours ago, workshop7 said:

 I fixed my issue by driving my front knee into the snow on toe side turns and my back knee on heel side turns.

Just of curiosity: Do you sometimes "fold the nose", a.k.a. "go over the handlebars"? I ask because I do more or less the opposite - drive the rear knee towards the snow in toeside turns, the front knee in heelside turns. A few weeks ago, prompted by a fellow rider, I tried to weight the front knee more in toeside turns, and that old dread of folding the nose came back to me.

[Jack M]

12 hours ago, SunSurfer said:

"Separate Zee Knees". by J Michaud

We're talking about the other knee Jack.

But that article doesn't say anything about favoring a "heel and toe across the board technique" as you seemed to say.  Maybe I misunderstood you, but that article is all about freeing your knees to be able to drive them however you want.  Front knee, rear knee, whatever works for you. 

[workshop7]

5 hours ago, Aracan said:

Just of curiosity: Do you sometimes "fold the nose", a.k.a. "go over the handlebars"? I ask because I do more or less the opposite - drive the rear knee towards the snow in toeside turns, the front knee in heelside turns. A few weeks ago, prompted by a fellow rider, I tried to weight the front knee more in toeside turns, and that old dread of folding the nose came back to me.

I am not talking about weight shifting here.  My adjustments have had nothing to do with weight.  I made no changes to where I place my body in the turn.  I still initiate the turn and leave the turn the same way I did before.  I just moved my front knee toward the snow more than before on the toe side and back knee on the heel side.  Also, keep in mind, this movement is relative to the opposite knee.  I’m not just trying to drive both knees or simply get the board up on edge more.  I’m changing the relationship between the knees from what I was doing before so that the board doesn’t twist.  

I found this issue to be isolated to my riding on the MK.  This is not something I had to do on any other board.

Edited January 9, 2018 by workshop7

[SunSurfer]

from "Separate Zee Knees"    http://www.bomberonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Separate-Zee-Knees.pdf

"The remedy is to allow the knees to remain comfortably separated while carving, and even to force them apart while carving aggressively. When carving at high speed on steeper or variable terrain, we want our center of mass to be moving smoothly and quietly along a consistent path for maximal stability. This means maintaining a quiet upper body and making the turn initiation from the waist down, primarily with the knees. On a toe side carve, this translates to a slight outward movement of the rear knee, towards the inside of the turn. On a heel side carve, the turn initiation becomes a slight outward and forward movement of the front knee, towards the inside of the turn."

Watching the teamriders in the ALLFLEX Carving Session who clearly use their knees in this way, and keep their knees widely separated, the video shows their hips aligned along the board on their heelside turns in particular. This has to result in the force on the edge being exerted out of the heel and toes.
Vic Wild and Jonghyun Kim have a body alignment much more as you aim for in the introduction to "Separate Zee Knees" on both side turns, hips and shoulder across the board, arms to the sides. Yet they are driving their knees quite differently from the other riders. 

Thanks for clarifying your intended meaning, to free both knees to be used to control the board. That's not what I had understood from reading the article, and I have read it a number of times.

Jack, thanks for the articles you have written on Bomber. They have made me think a great deal about how I ride, and how others ride. They have helped me to understand what I see when I watch videos of riders whose styles I admire and want to emulate. In some of the online conversations we have been involved in recently, I have not focused as tightly on the ideas being debated as I should have. Instead some of my comments have been more personal. This was wrong. Please accept my apologies.

 

 

 

[Jack M]

Thanks SunSurfer.  No need to apologize, glad we could clear this up, and glad you have found the articles useful.  I guess it's not obvious but several of my articles were written in the mid 90s for the first online snowboarding magazine, Snowboarding Online (SOL, hehe) which later was bought by Transworld.  I can't remember if this one was brought over from there or if I wrote it for BOL around '99.  Suffice to say, it was a time when many alpiners were riding narrow stances with their knees jammed together like Craig Kelley and Peter Bauer used to,  waving their arms around, and rotating their upper bodies excessively.  This was not unlike the practice of human sacrifice - it seemed like a good idea at the time.  But then we progressed.  The articles were meant to help break old habits.  The section you underlined above was a suggestion of where to go from here. I didn't want to just say, ride with your knees apart and figure the rest out on your own.  But the biggest thing was to get the knees apart.

I should probably update these articles, eh?

[Beckmann AG]

On 1/8/2018 at 2:08 AM, Comapedrosa said:

It could be the ice of course, but then why the difference between heel and toe-side?

Possibly because the diagonal stance makes it easier to bend the front end of the board on the heelside, and easier to bend the tail on a toeside. Odds are good you're mounted one or two holes too far back on the new board, and the front of the board isn't bending enough to support your efforts on the toeside.

Hard snow strips bare the lies we tell ourselves, so use it as an opportunity to refine your relationship to the board.

[Erik J]

How often do you ride ice?

[Comapedrosa]

 

1 hour ago, Beckmann AG said:

Odds are good you're mounted one or two holes too far back on the new board, and the front of the board isn't bending enough to support your efforts on the toeside.

This might be neither here nor there, but I was surprised at how far back the inserts are on the Proteus compared to immunotherapy boards (and in line with that, the apex of the sidecut seems to be further back).

1 hour ago, Beckmann AG said:

Hard snow strips bare the lies we tell ourselves, so use it as an opportunity to refine your relationship to the board.

Yes, this topic is forcing me to improve, and I love it!

1 hour ago, Erik J said:

How often do you ride ice?

Ha ha! Some solace here :-)

[Beckmann AG]

^

And did you center yourself on the insert pattern?

Geometric 'center' isn't always the same thing as 'functional' center.