Snowboarding's declining popularity

[nekdut]

http://travel.nytimes.com/2013/01/20/travel/has-snowboarding-lost-its-edge.html?pagewanted=all

How can we make it easier for more folks to get into hardboots?

[John E]

I was noticing that snowboarding seemed to be declining in popularity.

Most parents who want to get their kids onto the slopes start with skis because it is easier to start without both feet tied to the same plank. Years ago, many kids then progressed to snowboarding largely because of the rebelious image. I think the rebellious image is gone. Since there is no motivation to rebel, they don't want to "start over" and struggle with a new sport.

Also, snowboarding has lost it's cool factor. None of these reasons matter to me. My skier friends needle me about adopting a passe fad.

My perception is that a carving board is a superior tool than skis (for carving) and nothing beats a powder board for powder. Skis are arguably a more versitile tool.

Without kids adopting snowboarding, we may be a bunch of geezers hanging onto a dying sport.

[pokkis]

Funny thing, we were on Alta Badia prior on HSI session last Thursday and met one nice skier who told that never seen snowboarders who can run and use slope to run properly.

Had long chat with us and followed and watched us for rest of run .

[ExcelsiorTheFathead]

Get Obama on Alpine.

[xy9ine]

i wonder if the aging snowboarder demographic will affect an increase in hardboot popularity. ie, factors such as comfort & convenience (step-ins) in conjunction with aspects of maturity (ie, wanting to differentiate oneself from the park rats) & doing something still really fun (ie, carving), but less potentially injurious than jump & trick oriented mainstream riding. greater disposable income also offsets the higher costs of entry, so is potentially less a barrier.

any of the industry guys care to reflect on alpine hardware sales trends? i'm curious.

[Puddy Tat]

I definately think it's on it's way south. I've got my daughters (8 and 11) in 10-week semester lessons on softboot boards this season at Sunshine Village in Banff. They are both competent riders able to ride blacks and dfouble blacks respectively. There were a total of five kids signed up for all levels of the snowboard program (from never ever to double black riders). I'm not complaining as my kids basically have private lessons now for ten-weeks, but I think it's dying.

The same 10-week ski program gets alot more kids is my understanding.

Dave

[Donek]

This topic is beyond a simple explanation. There are so many things wrong with the way the majority of the industry has done things.

The industry has put all it's focus on new snowboards with reverse camber technology making instant experts (or at least intermediate) riders. They have abandoned almost all the aging snowboarders. If you look at the numbers, older snowboarders are leaving the sport. One explanation is that they are having kids and don't have the budget or time. I think the explanation being ignored is that the upper level riders have been abandoned by almost every brand. Reverse camber is widely considered useless by most advanced riders. Focus by the big manufacturers and media on freestyle and park riding turns off people who just want to go out and ride for fun. It's amazing to attend industry events and find that almost everyone has blinders on. They really believe that 95% of the riders on the hill spend the majority of their time in the park. If they would simply open their eyes, they would see how far from reality this is.

The simple truth is that the industry does not have a clue what the average rider wants to do with a snowboard because they don't listen to anyone except the small core group of people they employ. The people running these brands must mature as well and I think there is resistance among upper management to let this happen for fear that they will loose their core image. The simple fact is that the core image is no longer working. Aging snowboarders will continue to leave in droves if their needs are not met. This issue can not be met head on by one company. It must be an industry decision, or at least one that is supported by a few companies.

The industry focus is solely on generating new snowboarders with total disregard for for retention of existing snowboarders.

Edited January 17, 2013 by Donek

[BlueB]

Bingo, Sean!

[boardguru]

You are right on the mark Sean. If you are not a jibbernaut the Snowboard Industry doesn't care about or want to hear from you.

[bumpyride]

When boarding started, it was the Outlaw group and they started to do amazing things. They did it for years. The Ski Industry took notice and improvised and improved. They stole the shape, the sidecut and the versatility of snowboard, and managed to become the new Outlaw group with the twin tips and Fat Skis. Who wants to walk sideways up to the ski lift when they can go forward.

I'll continue to do what I love, and I really don't care what anyone else thinks (Oh I say this, but I still strive to do weird things on a board). It doesn't matter where you are in life, as long as you find the flow you belong in. Oh sure we now have amazing equipment, but we're not going to attract much on an audience that wants to partake. We'll be somewhat of an oddity.

Look at what's happened to winter sliding:

1. Leather boots, strap bindings, wooden skis, ledenhosen, weird high and tight haircuts

2. Plastic boots, step-in bindings, metal skis, tight black pants and puffy jackets, butch haircuts.

3. Sorels, rubber strap bindings, wooden boards, jeans and carharts, unkempt haircuts.

4. Plastic boots, plate bindings, composition boards, NEON clothes, longish hair.

5. Soft boots, racheting bindings, park boards, Dull baggy clothes, shaved heads, half pipe videos.

6. Hard Boots, Twin Tip, powder skis, park skis, Bright baggy clothes, long hair, big mountain videos.

The kids on the Twin Tips are simply amazing. They're doing everything the boarders did, and then some and look better at it, so it's no wonder they are beginning to attract newbies.

Natural progression, what's new becomes old, and maybe recycles itself in the years to come. Let's face it, for those of you who lived in the 60's in high school, who wouldn't love to still be able to wear our hair long and look good and drive a VW Van, OOOPS still have a VW Van, but drive a Prius, but no chance for long hair again (damn).

So we may be able to shanghai a couple of young-uns to our sport, but it isn't looking too good, but we are old and have disposal income, so our sport will remain till we die out through attrition.

[heroshmero]

I would agree with Sean. I think the lack of support for older riders started in the early 2000's.

For instance in the late 90's K2 had a lot of big boards and wider boards (Eldorado, Fat Bob, Trucker) and a number of products for backcountry use. In the early 2000's all that went away.

Look now at most of the mainstream manufacturer's lines and you won't find anything in those larger sizes. How does their stuff work for anybody bigger than a young teenager? What if the grown ups want to play?

I've been confused by this one for a while.

[lowrider]

Some people are contributing to the industry. But not enough. In Ontario Canadian resorts have been providing free lift tickets to kids in Grade 5, unfortunatly this year teachers have withdrawn support for extra curricular so fewer are taking advantage. Our provincial Gov't has helped establish a governing body for snowboarding including some funding. Our own local not for profit ski hill helps as well by providing a venue sadly they require the snowboard team which is only a handfull of kids to have multiple times more insurance than ski racers so the bias is evident, two planker wankers win all the support. It was our local snowboard club that has provided them with bragging rights for more world cup snowboard racers than skiers. Cultural population shift is most evident the snowboard, skiing group does not reflect the general population, our immigrants aren't anglo european they no longer come from a nordic culture the sport is starting to reflect this reality. Most resorts will not survive the shift if they continue to ignore the reality of most people's financial situation. Hockey rinks are fielding fewer teams as indoor soccer takes over. All of the above are concerns i have if i want to have affordable places to board. Every time i see a chailift replacing a tbar i know the rent is going up no resort is too big to fail and if they aren't planing for a demographic shift and relying on simlpy increasing lift ticket price then the model is broken. I remember when ski bindings were made of metal and would outlast multiple skis. That is no longer the case (with skis bindings anyway) I blame Fin for making bindings that are too durable. I think one reason the big boys don't like the Alpine fraternity is that they know once you have dialed in and purchased your dream setup they can't convince you to dump it and buy new next year. Now that solid colours are back for clothing they may have a hard time getting people to accept whatever the next have to have fashion colour will be. Alpine boarding is about accepting certian principals based on fact not hype that goes against modern marketing principals. Maybe Sean you could build a board with a huge Fractal antenna laminated into it providing such awsome reception no kids with a smart phone would dare to let it leave their side. My outlook my be influenced by the fact that we just went through a record high +15 degree heatwave fallowed by rain that has eliminated all snow accumulation to date. Our local hill is rebooting the snow guns and trying to salvage the season. Wish us luck!

Edited January 17, 2013 by lowrider

[davekempmeister]

...................if they continue to ignore the reality of most people's financial situation. ......................All of the above are concerns i have if i want to have affordable places to board. ................relying on simlpy increasing lift ticket price then the model is broken. QUOTE]

$ are as much a variable as anything else.

[Puddy Tat]

...The industry focus is solely on generating new snowboarders with total disregard for for retention of existing snowboarders.

To be perfectly honest if it weren't for carving on alpine boards in hardboots I'd have probably gone back to skiing a few years ago. Here's a thank you to the builders and distributors that continue to make this amazing sport possible.

Dave

[Corey]

I also would have probably quit snowboarding if I didn't discover Alpine.

If you look at any ski magazine, there are some ads that target each of the various age groups. From the young folks that want to hit huge jumps and rails, to the older folks that just want to slide on snow because it's fun. Look at any mainstream snowboard magazine and the target audience is only the young jibbers. And they wonder why they're losing the older people?

[John E]

I think both slope sliding sports (skiing & boarding) will decline:

1) Our population is aging. Fewer kids will take up these sports as the older ones quit.

2) These sports can be very expensive - especially for families. The next generation will likely have less disposable income to spend on expensive sports.

3) The population is becoming heavier and more sedentary.

4) Global warming? Are the last 2 dry, warm winters a trend or just a normal variation? If I had not picked up alpine riding (and had only a soft boot setup), the fun-to-hassle factor wouldn't be worth it.

These trends do no bode well for the snow sliding industry. It is up to us geezers (speaking only for myself) to help keep it alive.

[Jack M]

Most parents who want to get their kids onto the slopes start with skis because it is easier to start without both feet tied to the same plank. Years ago, many kids then progressed to snowboarding largely because of the rebelious image. I think the rebellious image is gone. Since there is no motivation to rebel, they don't want to "start over" and struggle with a new sport.

Also, snowboarding has lost it's cool factor.

I think these are huge parts of it. Skiing is cool again, and snowboarding is now just an alternate way to slide down the hill. Everyone college aged or younger has no memory of a ski mountain without snowboards. The rebel factor and the new factor are gone.

I am guilty of starting my kids on skis because it was easier. I also had this notion that it was a prerequisite. I have since taught my 10yo how to board, and I am teaching my 7yo now, but neither wants to switch yet. They have gotten to the point of feeling "cool" on their skis, they don't want to go backwards now. I don't know if they ever will, and I don't think I care. But I am glad they are good skiers, because now they know how to carve. Now that skis actually have sidecut, they work like ice skates. Carving comes naturally. Maybe someday they will want to carve like Dad. Hey, Tom Brady never played football until high school, there is time left.

But furthermore, I think most snowboarders now actually look pretty foolish compared to skiers. An intermediate or even advanced snowboarder is simply not usually a pretty sight to behold anywhere outside a park or pipe. They slide around awkwardly, "scraping all the snow off the hill". There is usually no grace. "Turns" are no more than alternating toeside/heelside sideslips; there is no shape. I can't imagine many people watching and saying, yeah, I want to do THAT!

Back when I started snowboarding, skiing was stagnant and difficult. My last pair of skis were 185, and I was 13. The only way to carve was to have downhill races against my friends, where we would go to the unpopular part of the mountain and schuss - only turning where the trail turned. Oh and jumping was very difficult on old long skis and anyway it was practically forbidden. Compared to skiing, snowboarding looked like fun and freedom. That contrast no longer exists. We snowboarders have given skiers sidecut, twin tips, rocker, and powder skis. Skiing is easier and more fun than ever. I'm not sure there is anything anymore that a snowboard can do that skis can't do almost as well, equally as well, or better. There's no longer a need to switch to snowboarding to do something you can't do on skis. Well, I guess we still have fakie riding better. Yay.

My perception is that a carving board is a superior tool than skis (for carving)

Ultimately it is when conditions allow, we still carve circles around skiers. But now skiers can get that g-force and clean slice feeling too. Skis are superior on ice, at high speed, and if you have a low tolerance for falling down. I think skiers feel they carve "well enough" and what we do is now just a pretty spectacle, not necessarily the goal.

and nothing beats a powder board for powder. Skis are arguably a more versitile tool.

Snowboards are better as long as you are moving downhill, but forget about it if you have to do any x-c to get around. And again, I think skiers feel that powder skis are "good enough".

The industry has put all it's focus on new snowboards with reverse camber technology making instant experts (or at least intermediate) riders. They have abandoned almost all the aging snowboarders. If you look at the numbers, older snowboarders are leaving the sport. One explanation is that they are having kids and don't have the budget or time. I think the explanation being ignored is that the upper level riders have been abandoned by almost every brand. Reverse camber is widely considered useless by most advanced riders. Focus by the big manufacturers and media on freestyle and park riding turns off people who just want to go out and ride for fun.

Agreed. Every mature snowboarder I know thinks rails are bulls--- and would never go near one. I just used Burton's board finder, and it came up with 2 reasonable choices (out of 39 men's models), the Custom X and the Vapor. However I will hand it to them that 14 men's models have full camber. Ironically it looks like they have no boards that are mostly cambered but with tip and tail rocker, like we use.

A longtime snowboarder friend of mine actually switched back to skis last year. It's a shame because he was one of the few who I thought made softbooting look good. I asked him why and he said "I just don't want to be that 40 year old guy on a snowboard." I hear that.

Indeed having kids puts a damper on going to the mountains. Only those for whom it's a lifestyle (and an affordable one) return.

Without kids adopting snowboarding, we may be a bunch of geezers hanging onto a dying sport.

I think the first bubble has burst, but I don't think snowboarding will ever disappear. It will find its minimum around some core population of people who were just born to slide sideways. And then it will be counter-culture again...

Edited January 18, 2013 by Jack Michaud

[Johnny]

Between me and my friends who can ride at a faster pace with a higher skill level than the others, I'm the only snowboarder. I've been contemplating on switching to skis, but I like my ACL's and MCL's as they are. My doctor (a sports medecine guy, in his 50's) is also a snowboarder for the same reason.

[xy9ine]

after years of getting out only a handful of times per season, my interest in snowboarding was also rekindled by carving; now i can't get enough. sean makes some excellent points; the industry largely ignores our demographic. i can see hardboot hardware being a tough sell, but even capable all mountain softboot carveable decks are few and far between. i imagine there's not much hope of significant growth in our niche unless one of the major players decides to step up with some accessible hardware - which seems unlikely, unfortunately.

[BlueB]

I just used Burton's board finder, and it came up with 2 reasonable choices (out of 39 men's models), the Custom X and the Vapor.

Delete the Vapor, there :( Our local rider has one. It pretty much turned into a wall ornament since he acquired a 3800... He says Vapor is better only for jibbing.

____

Yeah, even at our school, ski side seems to be a lot busier. Yesterday, no crowd on the hill, but 2 school groups on skis, none on snowboard. Most of our dual certified instructors seem to get more ski lessons too.

[Puddy Tat]

A Denver Post article from later last season that says much the same thing.

http://www.denverpost.com/business/ci_20606982/all-numbers-mdash-from-visits-purchases-first-timers

Dave

Edited January 17, 2013 by Puddy Tat

[lafcadio]

after years of getting out only a handful of times per season, my interest in snowboarding was also rekindled by carving; now i can't get enough.

+1 This describes me exactly. I was ready to give up snowboarding and switch back to skiing full time until I discovered alpine and hardboots. It made me fall in love with snowboarding all over again.

[dingbat]

Is it necessarily a bad thing that the numbers are declining? Nothing would make me happier than if the lame, side-slipping, no ambition to improve, crowd stopped snowboarding altogether. How can we get them to drop the sport and back on skis?

[Mucknbullets]

I doubt I will ever go back to ski's as never was much good on concentrating on 2 things at once. I agree with the comments about your average snowboarder looking a bit naff, to say the least, and what is it with sitting down everywhere (usually in the ruddy way)? I don't like getting a cold arse and prefer to go as fast as possible down the slope. Ok I get 1 week a year if I am lucky (the joys of living in southern England and having no money to go more often) but that week is special to me and now with my HB setup I hope to improve some more.

A comment from a guy I ended up ski-ing with last year in Italy - You board like a skier. Yeah, not surprising as have no interest in throwing at oh la la's or whatever but love that surf feeling you can get just flicking form side to side and running the length of a run. Oh and further to this I ended up talking to a very elderly gentlemen in our pidgeon englsih/italian about snowboarding as I had seen him on a SB setup and then he turns up in HBs. Ok he wasn't fast but was still enjoying himself at over 80 years old. Turns out he was an ex team Italy boarder from back in the early days (coach I think) but still rode most days of the winter.

[EmcD]

I do both..... but my Kids (4,7,8). They all started skiing when they were 2. You can't do that with snowboarding. I started them snowboarding at 5 an 6, but only when they want... They just did their first race (gs) last weeked..... Now the 4 year old want to start this year... so I agreed (my wife says I am crazy because they are finally skiing/boarding on their own) But she is so cute I can't say no.

Last year I had a trip out to Whistler... I skied only. When I lived out West... (seems like ages ago) I used to have snow shoes etc. i did some back country.... Went with a friend of mine on Skis and was getting lapped big time..... almost 2 runs to my 1. Access on skis is way better. As for which is more fun... in B.Country conditions a crazy carpet would be fun.... So I will take the extra vert....

As for feel..... nothing compares to the G's on the race board. So I will continue to do both.

As to decline... look out... industry wide... Winters here are getting spotty at best.... All the boomers are slowly quieting ..... just not renewing memberships etc. Their kids are not bringing their kids... Despite the fact they themselves went every weekend growing up. They can't give 1/2 price lift tickets here away. At the same time we have to rely on more an more snowmaking, which is expensive. Lift regulations are becoming more stringent (which is probably a good thing) but it drives costs up. It is not looking good for the few of us that keep sliding.

On the plus side my road biking season keeps getting longer.