Snowboarding's declining popularity

[b0ardski]

Don't let your your frustration turn you into a negative nancy Jack. I agree with the teleboard demo model, but liability combined with our (inland northwest) ad hock collection of gear collectors/tutors/ambassadors are limited in scope but doing an OK job of at least exposing folks to our chosen alternative. If we truly had a fleet of demos and the means for insurance and personnel every weekend we'd be converting or at least hooking partimers every week (skiers as well as boarders).

I've seen a small but steady growth in this region over the last few years.

Granted we'll always be a novelty in the larger scheme of things but if even 5% of any skier visit days were craving the trenches would get out of hand;)

[energyrail]

Honestly what is a Teleboard? At whistler I seen what looks like a monoboard but with a non release binding.

[b0ardski]

pretty much a skwal for teleboots

[Jack M]

pretty much a skwal for teleboots

They are a lot like the practice of human sacrifice. It seemed like a good idea at the time.

[LeeW]

Hmm, I'm a bit of a late comer.

Uh, from what I recall, it's simply the number of Generation X, Y and Z isn't quite "large" as oppose to the 80's and 90's which would likely contribute to an explosion of the skiing/snowboard population.

Personally, I think this is a good thing since I work in the ski industry and the more customers we have, the better business it is.

As for snowboarding, by itself alone, I wouldn't be surprise if it seems "declining" but I would believe it wouldn't matter since down the road, snowboard will be one of the tools to use to go down the hill next to skis, telemarks, and maybe snowskates (if it ever gets legalized).

EDIT: snowskates as in snow skateboards.

[charliechocolate]

pretty much a skwal for teleboots

To the average slider, it's pretty much all same - goofy-looking, oddball gear.

[energyrail]

ok so the teleboard is pretty much the most stupid thing on snow. At least you don't have to worry about heel lift gizmos. Why do people know what this is? I think they should run an alpine board boot on the front and the tele boot on the back. Was there really more alpine riders in like 93-97 than now, or did it just represent a larger percentage of the boarders at the time.

[b0ardski]

Why do people know what this is?

As Jack mentioned above, Demo tents.

[Puddy Tat]

Was there really more alpine riders in like 93-97 than now, or did it just represent a larger percentage of the boarders at the time.

I can't speak to the the numbers or percentages, but in '94 I could walk into a shop that was selling snowboards and find alpine gear.

Dave

[Csmuggs]

I teach alpine & adaptive skiing, as well as snowboarding. I think there a few key reasons why skiing is catching up again:

-Bottom line is that skiing is easier to learn for most kids, I see that first hand every day.

-As a parent, I want my kids to develop a love for winter sports - not be frustrated for 3-4 days before even linking turns.

-Burton LTR boards are great, but extremely limiting after day 2. As we know LTR boards are everywhere.

-New skis are wider and rockered; quick turning off-piste and great in deep snow. It used to be that snowboards ruled the pow.

-wrist injuries are very common with the learning population. Slams are quick and violent in snowboarding - this scares the casual learner away.

-halfpipe has lost it's luster IMO. Same tricks all the time, where's the individuality?

-as many have said, emphasis has moved away from carving and towards jibbing,etc.

Carving a snowboard is one of the best feelings in the world, like a frontside grind on a skateboard. The ambiguous edge feel of the burton ltr board is not satisfying and does not instill confidence. Just 2 cents

[Jack M]

but in '94 I could walk into a shop that was selling snowboards and find alpine gear.

True, but that business model failed and won't be coming back. I think the only way for a store to carry alpine gear is if it is located at or on a mountain with a demo program and instruction. And said mountain needs to be centrally located. Ahem, STRATTON.

[dingbat]

Just out of curiosity, aside from gear manufacturers who only produce for the alpine snowboard market, or general snowboard market, why do you care if the numbers go up or down for alpine or snowboarding in general?

And when I say "you" I mean any of you.

[BXFR70]

I wanted to share some thoughts on this whole thing….

Skiing vs Snowboarding…

First, I think skis are much easier to learn on, I started skiing at 3 and skied on and off till 9, then started riding and have been since, I am now 28, even though I do not regularly ski and may go years between times, but I can throw skis on and go have some fun and make it down whatever I need to around here, I can’t say the same for most I have seen try snowboarding, I did not really get it until my 3rd day riding.

I think skis are gaining popularity again somewhat due to how diverse skis and skiing can be, they are also much more versatile. Freestyle skiers are going bigger and doing more than the snowboarders now, that has to help for a certain crowd. Also, moguls probably appeal to some, I know you can ride moguls on a snowboard, but not at all like you can on skis. Probably 4-5 years ago at our home mountain, a bunch of kids switched from boards to twin tip skis, and on first few days were doing 3’s in the park, and I noticed a lot of other new skiers doing the same, we do not seem to be getting as many new riders around here. (Northeastern PA)

I feel skis are faster, more stable, and better suited for a more natural movement of you acting as a suspension and soaking up variations or bumps in snow. They are also much better for traverses, or even when dropping cliffs or starting out in a chute or something similar, you can get much more speed if necessary and be in more control within a shorter distance, you can go straight rather than have to turn and go..

I have thought about skiing, but I did not want to buy a whole new set of equipment and be a beginner/intermediate again, and take away from snowboarding. I also did not like my knees being separate on skis after being on a snowboard for so long.

I went to ECES last year, and got into hardbooting. I was riding soft boots in the same manner, and pretty much not going in the park, and even if I was, I was mainly doing straight airs anyway. I am not sure if I caught on fairly quickly, or if I just rode similarly with soft boots and was already carving, so it just carried over a bit.

I like riding hard boots/carving, and am getting better, even though I have really not ridden all that much yet. Over the weekend, I was at Killington, Sugarbush, and Stratton. At Killington, I did not see anyone else on hardboots, or even riding soft boots aggressively, really at any of the mountains for that matter. I got a ton of questions though, on what everything was, and what it was for, I got a lot of funny looks when I explained, and a few people did not know what carving was at all, and just did not get why it would be better for anything than soft boots. At Sugarbush, I got a few questions, and some lift attendants said it was cool, etc, again no other hardbooters. At Stratton, I got questions from one person, who already knew what it was, and was complaining about all the new freestyle boards, he said he used to race BX and was looking to get a probably metal board for soft boots, but no one said anything other than him. I saw one other hard boot board on the rack at the lodge, other than that nothing. I realize it was a holiday weekend, and I may not find carvers, but to not see any probably tells you something.

A lot of people even friends have sort of said what is the point if you’re not in soft boots, and I can see their point. As, I have said I feel skis are probably better at many things, but I did not want to essentially start over again. Soft boots are pretty comfortable, if you wear hard boots then get into soft boots.

As far as barriers to entry with hard boots and carving, there needs to be more demos, even individuals with extra gear with a sign at the mountain would help. Without ECES last year, I would not have gotten into hard boots. This website is a great resource, but most people do not know about it, and a lot of people do not want to be bothered with forums anyway.

Also, it is expensive, it’s not a lot more than a very high end soft boot board with high end soft boots and bindings, but it is still more, most riders are buying the cheaper board and bindings and boots though, so the cost is way higher with them.

I feel that most riders now, do not seem ride at a higher performance level, I had a friend I used to ride with, that in soft boots, would push the teeth into the ratchet as far as he could, and then once it stopped click the ratchet once or twice, and call it good, if I did that, I would feel like I had barely any control in soft boots.

Another thing, I had to go to a bootfitter, and now have quite a bit of money into my boots, because we only have 2 or 3 choices for boots, with ski boots, you have so many choices with different widths and companies have a different foot shape.

I do not think snowboarding is going anywhere, I just do not think it is growing like it was, and I wonder about alpine as people get older and such, as others have mentioned.

Winter sports in general are very expensive, anyone have any numbers on overall numbers for winter sports or new participants?

My area locally is not a good place to take a sample, as we have never been a real big winter sports area, due to lack of snow and the money aspect.

[Puddy Tat]

True, but that business model failed and won't be coming back. I think the only way for a store to carry alpine gear is if it is located at or on a mountain with a demo program and instruction. And said mountain needs to be centrally located. Ahem, STRATTON.

I agree and I doubt I'll see a brick and mortar store in North America carrying alpine gear anytime in the foreseeable future :-(. My comment was specifically that in the wild and wolly days when everyone was figuring out stances, equipment, and what kind of clothing they should wear. Equipment was available, though I don't know if more people were actually riding alpine.

Your comment about expression sessions just being a chance for existing riders to get together and ride with other riders and their friends is right on the mark. It's been mentioned many times on this forum that we need to ride with others in order to improve. I agree it would be good to be able to have demo equipment available for currently non-alpine riders. But the people organizing these events don't have multiple sets of equipment (especially boots) that could go in a demo area and honestly like I mentioned above I learn alot just being able to ride with other people once a year.

...

Come to think of it as a group of people coming togehter at an expression session we could probably crowd source enough equipment and people to run a demo tent for current non-alpine riders to try out alpine? ie most people have a spare older board that they wouldn't mind donating for the duration of the demo tent, or older boots, or bindings (or even one of the three). Some people could work setting up demo boards while others acted as ambassadors and took newly set-up people for a couple of runs which would help the new rider and prevent loaned equipment from going missing. Maybe if the expression session attendees dedicated a day or an afternoon to something like this during the expression session it would help to expand knowledge of what we are doing.

Dave

[xy9ine]

Just out of curiosity, aside from gear manufacturers who only produce for the alpine snowboard market, or general snowboard market, why do you care if the numbers go up or down for alpine or snowboarding in general?

And when I say "you" I mean any of you.

i'm mainly concerned that dwindling numbers will fail to support the few very small manufacturers that currently exist, and the failure of just a couple key companies (ie, boot, binding) could effectively kill our niche altogether. the industry seems tenuous at best.

and: it's just fun to see other like-minded people on the hill. perhaps we're just freaks, but i don't know of any other sport that's so ridiculously fun, yet unacknowledged by the general pubic. the coolest board sport dynamics i've ever experienced. oh well...

Edited January 25, 2013 by xy9ine

[dingbat]

i'm mainly concerned that dwindling numbers will fail to support the few very small manufacturers that currently exist, and the failure of just a couple key companies (ie, boot, binding) could effectively kill our niche altogether. the industry seems tenuous at best.

and: it's just fun to see other like-minded people on the hill. perhaps we're just freaks, but i don't know of any other sport that's so ridiculously fun, yet unacknowledged by the general pubic. the coolest board sport dynamics i've ever experienced. oh well...

Good enough boots can be modified from AT and freestyle ski boots. As it is, how many people run their snowboard specific hardboots right out of the box with out modifications? I suspect I could whip-up a workable binding with a day or so in the shop. Materials to build boards are readily available so long as there is a ski industry. In fact, I suspect some of the custom board manufacturers would turn to making skis and still be able to put out a board or two for those who wanted it. Fin would find other markets for his cnc machines (if I'm not mistaken he makes performance upgrades for Subarus already) and would most likely be able to pop out a run of bindings when the market would support it.

To your second point, I totally agree. Which is why I don't think we're likely to see it completely disappear.

[Allee]

Bottom line is that skiing is easier to learn for most kids, I see that first hand every day. As a parent, I want my kids to develop a love for winter sports - not be frustrated for 3-4 days before even linking turns.

Totally true. Really young kids (unless they're Shaun White) don't have the strength and the coordination to learn on a snowboard. Hell, I didn't as an adult. Plus board gear for little kids is difficult to get hold of used - which is a barrier to entry for a lot of parents. Ski gear is cheap, easy to find, and easily sold on next season.

Slams are quick and violent in snowboarding - this scares the casual learner away.

Yes they are, and yes it does. And as the original article mentioned, this is especially an issue for women. For every woman who wants to learn to ride well and is prepared to suffer some pain to do it, there will be ten who simply want to look cute in ski gear, and will cry and go home the first time they take a mackerel slap. A lot of women are concerned with how they look - and traversing a set of skis on a bunny hill is much more appealing than falling on your ass every time you turn.

-halfpipe has lost it's luster IMO. Same tricks all the time, where's the individuality?

I still love watching snowboard pipe, but I like watching ski pipe more. Whether it's pipe, slopestyle or big air, skiers go bigger and look better.

Edited January 25, 2013 by Allee

[kmartshopper]

it's just fun to see other like-minded people on the hill. perhaps we're just freaks, but i don't know of any other sport that's so ridiculously fun, yet unacknowledged by the general pubic. the coolest board sport dynamics i've ever experienced. oh well...

I think the rarity of alpine riders actually contributes to this phenomenon. Even with my sparkling personality and boundless charms, I'll talk to random people on the lift but will rarely ride with them after offloading. With hardbooters though, I'd say it's the other way around - more often than not we'll at least take a few runs together. I think if it were commonplace, this wouldn't be as much so.

[Neil Gendzwill]

I think the rarity of alpine riders actually contributes to this phenomenon. Even with my sparkling personality and boundless charms, I'll talk to random people on the lift but will rarely ride with them after offloading. With hardbooters though, I'd say it's the other way around - more often than not we'll at least take a few runs together. I think if it were commonplace, this wouldn't be as much so.

That's the way it used to be with all snowboarders. Dumb questions from the skiers, instant bond with the snowboarders.

Frankly I don't think the hills can tolerate many of us. When we get together at Nakiska in January, it only takes a dozen of us to significantly tear up those runs. I'd like to keep enough of us around to keep our supplier friends in business, aside from that I don't care that much about growth.

[wantok]

there will be ten who simply want to look cute in ski gear, and will cry and go home the first time they take a mackerel slap.

I've taken a few mackerel slaps but thought it was my stance. Who knew?

[Beckmann AG]

^

Hmm...Japanese downhill?

[kmartshopper]

Subs?

That looks like Killington on a Saturday.

[Mucknbullets]

there will be ten who simply want to look cute in ski gear, and will cry and go home the first time they take a mackerel slap.

I've taken a few mackerel slaps but thought it was my stance. Who knew?

Love the Le Mans style start. This is where Intec/Fintec would rule, assuming you can run in hard boots. ;)

[energyrail]

Ya I'm pretty sure we aren't getting any new Boots to choose from. But the good news is ski boots are a lot softer than they were 10 years ago, but at the same time they have less forward lean. Speaking of which, I wonder if UPZ sells more boots for skiing than snowboarding. It appears they designed the shell around the idea that they had two markets for it. Did it work? Hey what is the average age on the forum. Has there been a meaningful poll. I'm thirty.

[lonbordin]

I'm fairly new to hardbooting (2009) and did the soft thing forever. I'm more a racer than a carver... that said I'd love carving to be accessible and at the same time I respect that it is not.

I, like many of you, go to a resort where there is 1 hard booter, me. There's no demo accessibility. There's no one to show me the ropes. Nor is there anyone at the next handful of nearest ski resorts.

People whisper (I can hear you!) in the line behind me every time. What is that, blah, blah, blah. I have to educate the new lifties every single season. You know, I don't care anymore. I like doing it. I'm fast. I'm old. It's fun. When I put on my softie setup (Driver X!) it feels like crap... the old marshmallow steering wheel.

The bar was high for me to get in and it makes one want to stick it out (we are ALL fanatics! Hooray!). I learned everything from BOL (and resources found through BOL) and trial and error... makes it all the sweeter when I succeed. I'm not sure I want HB to hit the mass market or that I care that much. (Note this doesn't mean I don't wish success to Bomber, Donek, AllBoard, etc!)

PS- Skateboarding's popularity follows the rise and fall of teen population... I'd bet snowboarding does as well.