Free carving and these new plate systems?

[pokkis]

Nils, if you finally again can get to Zinal, you can test Excalibur with plates, to really see if that works in reality, and then not being beliver to theories or believs only

[terekhov]

Don't knock it until you have tried it

didn't mind that at all, but I live where all stuff which I wanna try must be bought beforehand by me, so mental trying is almost the must for economical causes :)

and I _hate_ riding ice, so almost don't need any tools for riding it, and I didn't see the point in riding on stable platform in turbulent conditions - so many slope feedback lost - I almost _feel_ that. but sure I want to try that gizmo. maybe in year or three....

this topic is very interesting viewpoint-mangling, thank you all again!

[Beckmann AG]

Close enough for government work, Philw.

Just to be clear, I was not referring in any way to the ongoing debate over twisting or pedaling. (That all is for taffy and bicycles).

Rather, many skiers and riders experience fatigue that has little to do with their overall fitness levels, and more to do with the effects created by their interface with a dynamic platform on a slippery surface.

A good example is the complaint among skiers that their quads just aren't fit enough, and that they need more conditioning. Exceeding the limits of muscular endurance in this context has everything to do with the geometric properties of ski boots and bindings, and very little to do with fitness. When a skiers heels are too high, they will move aft to stabilize themselves. This moves the knee joint away from a 'faceted' position, one which provides the maximum amount of support and flexibility with the least amount of attendant muscle activity. This is not to suggest that everyone maintain such a posture indefinitely, but the athlete and the sliding device should be able to achieve and/or pass thorugh a 'rest state' simultaneously. With ease. All too rare an occurrance, I'm afraid.

For hardbooting, the analog is insufficient binding setback combined with soft or somewhat sticky snow. The rider moves further back to stabilize, thus premature fatigue.

In each case, the issue will not show up while 'carpet surfing' as the skis/snowboard are not dynamic, and as such, the body does not need to stabilize itself against fluctuating and continuous inputs. Similarly, groomed surfaces do little to reveal the limitations of one's equipment.

Your link, Phil, is particularly appropriate in that it refers to the limiting effect of undesirable vibrations, which is something the plate systems will work well to reduce or eliminate. This is akin to the reduction one feels when exchanging say, an early Cannondale aluminium bicycle for a current unit constructed of either titanium or carbon fibre. The latter will improve rider performance, all other things remaining equal, because they reduce fatigue by canceling vibration.

Perhaps the plate will help people realize that their binding/boot setup is not tuned properly to their body? Because now the mounting surface will remain constantly flat. I think that's going to feel very different. I imagine many people are going to have to make binding/boot adjustments after they buy one of these.

Maybe, but I suspect not much. Early reports indicate that a rider on a plate can ride faster, longer, through more difficult conditions. Given the current options in boots and bindings, and the trends for their configuration, I figure it will be a while before those pieces of gear face further scrutiny.

Correct, plates are not meant to be a stance correction tool but rather a ride perfomance/enhacement tool and yes they will allow many riders to turn the performance knob to 10.

Laymen friendly wording for the lumber jacks and "apline sports enthusiasts" who might flounder a bit with your verbage.

Point exemplified.

Simpler verbiage might have you reading that many problems one may have as a rider will still be there while using a plate, but they will be less noticeable.

Also, rider speed may increase without a corresponding improvement in skill.

Strangely, I logged in after spending the day up in a bucket with a Motorsagen. That's more associated with arboriculture, but considering the difficulties associated with contemporary timber harvesting, I think the average logger would be able to comprehend what I typed. They tend to be a resourceful bunch.

Lumberjacks, on the other hand...

Plates and vibration dampeners of all types have been around for a long time in alpine skiing. Some work well in some circumstances, while others are simply a detriment to performance. A few will wreck a promising athlete, but none will truly advance the 'unskilled'.

[SunSurfer]

Everybody loves to go fast but the truth is SPEED KILLS. Its up to you to know what your comfort/skill levels are. Don't ever assume that these plates are a bandaid for poor perfomance, improper riding technique and a improper stance.

Think Snow!

Kinetic Energy = 0.5 x mass x velocity x velocity

Nah, it's the sudden STOP that kills you!

When I was riding my plate equipped board (Riot Supercarve 180) I would ride, as always, up to the limit of what I perceived as acceptable risk. That's a combination of speed, sensation of balance and being in control, and surrounding traffic. Actually, that's what I did on my board without a plate too (Coiler AM 177), and before I ever even thought about plates.

The skiers I was riding with commented that despite the speed I was going that everything appeared to be in absolute control, and that I could clearly turn at will. There was no arm flailing, or anything else that suggested I was being thrown off balance.

An isocline plate extends the range of snow conditions and speeds that a competent rider will, be in control, be able to carve if they so desire, extend the time that their quadriceps femoris muscles stay unfatigued enough to maintain good control, and still follow the Snow Responsibility Code.

In the end, whether you drive a Toyota Corolla, a Humvee, a Lamborghini Countach, or a WRC Subaru on public roads, the rules of the road still apply. What you do on a racetrack is entirely different.

The effect on snowboard torsion will depend on the torsional stiffness of the plate. I could still easily traverse slopes, sideslip, hockey stop, and adjust edge bite and release in the turn by the same degree of movement that I needed on the unplated board I was riding for comparison. My plate was made from a 1996 Hot Logical snowboard. I don't think we're going to see plates built and MARKETED that are so rigid as to be able to prevent that kind of control.

There are going to be moments when you lose control and fall, just as there are when you ride an unplated board. Because you are likely to be moving faster at that time the consequences are going to be more severe, as both Snowman and the KE equation point out. Mass is less important than speed, and the plate will add perhaps 2-3% to the total mass of rider and board.

Buying and using more body armour isn't necessarily the solution. At more than about 50 km/hr any immediate deccelleration to 0 km/hr is going to do serious damage to you, armoured or not. We can do those sorts of speeds easily on an unplated board.

Better to considerably increase the distance ahead of you that you look for hazards in, and slow down when you spot them.

SunSurfer

(A separate OT thread might go on which board matches which vehicle!)

[lowrider]

After recieving a two day lesson in humble pie dished out by" Dr Coiler "I am here to defend the honour of the much maligned snowboard plate.After watching Bruce craft and manipulate carbon fibre, fiberglass titinal wood epoxy and ptex i will declare it is not necessary to ride a plate on one of his creations. but if you find yourself in a situation where you want the heated seats in your car turned on in the winter a plate can provide even a well crafted board with that missing bit of comfort.It's not necessary but it sure feels nice. I didn't invent the modern plate but i have been making them and using them longer than most and i will continue to even though they add weight. yada yada yada yada !! If my plate has some flex i can move my knees around and be a little more comfortable if the inserts on my board are too narrow "the added inserts on my plate can modify my stance" . The plate does aid in fatigue as well as allow changing of insert placement. Terekhov i would not be too quick to rush out and buy a plate if you have any doubt about it's effectiveness there will be opportunities to try before you buy and many more players on board very shortly. Cut up an old board and make your own simple hardware i have some ideas i can email to you or look up Sunsurfers thread the effect is the same as the Apex or SGP and alot cheaper just not as cool. Like them or hate them never tried them or never want to try them they are here for a while so live and learn. Sorry Bruce this means you may be requested to put 8 more insert holes in some of your boards but don't worry theres a 50 /50 chance the nay sayers may give plates an early death and you can go back to board building the way it should be "pure craftsmanship" and no gimmicks. If most people could appreciate that a tenth of a millimeter difference in the core thickness behind the rear inserts on one of your board was worth fifteen minutes of measuring and sanding because you want to assure your customer that the board will perform as promised i respect that your opinion of whether a plate is necessary or not is more valid than most opinions expressed here on BOL. Now that Bruce has moved up an age catagory in racing and will require more ibuprofen after race days i'm hoping he will embrace plates the way my knees have.:lol::lol: PS if you have a board on order from Bruce the sawdust and epoxy are flowing in his shop but the golf balls and kites are still in his car so be patient he is working (just not as hard as he should be) i'm waiting for my new board for my new plate UMP 1.7MM STACK HEIGHT BOARD TO TOP OF PLATE. 4.3 LBS. (plate and hardware).Ok plate makers how low can you go ??????

[Shred Gruumer]

I like mine just fine...yep.. all that you said.. like I said this year will be one of the most intresting... I like what you did and how far you have come with the SGP plate and the smoothness it provides.. can't wait to ge our Cleveland guys on them as they are axious... getting set up as we speak.. great work on this... and glad that its on its way...

Im just saying get on this boat..

RSS

[valsam]

Perhaps the plate will help people realize that their binding/boot setup is not tuned properly to their body? Because now the mounting surface will remain constantly flat. I think that's going to feel very different. I imagine many people are going to have to make binding/boot adjustments after they buy one of these.

So the surface will feel flat correct?

That doesn't sound like much fun for me!

That is like touching a naked beautiful woman with gloves on or even like having sex with a condom in witch case you have the benefit of not catching a disease but the isolation of it just sucks!

I put on my boards last season some polycarbonate spacers and beside the protection and a little stiffness benefits i did'nt like the isolation of the feedback that he terrain gave me !

[jp1]

While a 'plate' system may not be for everyone, I think everyone owes it to themself to at least try them and make their own decision.

We all have preconceived notions, positive or negative, sometimes so strong that we wont even try something. Some list reasons why they will never work, while others will list reasons how they work. I've heard all of the excuses, do yourself a favor and try every system you can and make your own decision.

All I care about is what works for me, and puts the biggest :) on my face .

[slopestar]

While a 'plate' system may not be for everyone, I think everyone owes it to themself to at least try them and make their own decision.

We all have preconceived notions, positive or negative, sometimes so strong that we wont even try something. Some list reasons why they will never work, while others will list reasons how they work. I've heard all of the excuses, do yourself a favor and try every system you can and make your own decision.

All I care about is what works for me, and puts the biggest :) on my face .

I will list reasons why here in Southern California, I will probably never own or get to try one.

1. I am broke and can barely afford a season pass at the local "skatepark"

2. The local resorts are "skateparks"

3. SNES? Oh ya, only locals show up and no vendors = no demos!

4. Did I mention all my gear and I mean all my gear is at least 5 years old.

a. Most of it is over 10.

5. Did I mention I am broke?

[lowrider]

In reality i think your the guy who would have the most fun on the plate, make an old board into something in never was. Hope you get to try one soon. Get an old deck check out Sunsurfers thread and build one it's guaranteed to put a smile on your face no one will understand.

[slopestar]

In reality i think your the guy who would have the most fun on the plate, make an old board into something in never was. Hope you get to try one soon. Get an old deck check out Sunsurfers thread and build one it's guaranteed to put a smile on your face no one will understand.

Not a bad idea. I have enough unfinished projects and no need to start another. Would be nice to see some of the demo and used gear not all being sent to or snatched up by the same guys...

[slopestar]

Not a bad idea. I have enough unfinished projects and no need to start another. Would be nice to see some of the demo and used gear not all being sent to or snatched up by the same guys...

The new/old Burton Fusion 165 Bx deck will be here in a few days. freecarve boots on raceplates( total cost=$250 over 11 years ) That is

s the kind of money and technology I am on. The sad thing is, on softies I could definitely out carve the Japanese Kagyaking boys...Where are the demos???????????

please take note of the caption at the bottom...But I can ride...

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

The new/old Burton Fusion 165 Bx deck will be here in a few days. freecarve boots on raceplates( total cost=$250 over 11 years ) That is

s the kind of money and technology I am on. The sad thing is, on softies I could definitely out carve the Japanese Kagyaking boys...Where are the demos???????????

please take note of the caption at the bottom...But I can ride...

Video please.

[Beckmann AG]

The pictures prove that his aggressive driving with his back leg/knee is not a random movement or "extremely transient moment".

Granted.

Unfortunately, the photos do not indicate whether the movement of his back leg/knee is intentional, or reflexive.

Care to speculate?

[nekdut]

3. SNES? Oh ya, only locals show up and no vendors = no demos!

Not true. Catek, Bomber, Donek and Madd all provided demos for SNES #1.

We decided not to request demos from vendors for SNES #2 since the demos really were not used all that much during SNES #1. Even so, we still had 20+ boards to try out since most everyone did a quiver share for SNES #2.

[Buell]

....on softies I could definitely out carve the Japanese Kagyaking boys..

Video please.

Yes please!

[WinterGold]

I guess this discussion would deserve it´s own thread. Looking at Benjamin Karl doing his thing, I always wondered how he manages to get the edge pressure he needs without moving his body as much as all the other guys. He seems to be more upright than the other racers. He is extremely well balanced and therefore super consistent (out of 11 races last year he had 9 podiums and made it to the top ten in every race!). He doesn´t look that aggressive, but his board control is almost always spot on. His technique raises quite some questions, at least for me ...

And as we are in a plate thread, I think that his equipment (he was the first who used an isolating plate, right?) is also part of his secret. I heard from a coach that other riders wouldn´t be able to ride Karl´s setup effectively ...

[Beckmann AG]

there is a lot of video of Benjamin Karl available including his runs in the Olympics.

No doubt, and I'm sure it reveals a great deal of consistency.

If you have a good eye then you should be able to do your own analysis of what he is doing and why he is doing it. As a coach and clinician, this is one of the things I get paid to do.

I'm not exactly perplexed by what I'm looking at.

If you have a succinct explanation for the movement exemplified in the photo, beyond '(he) drives very aggressively with his back leg/knee', then I would like to hear it. Most movements serve a purpose, and quite often the true purpose is less then obvious.

If this is not the appropriate venue for my question, then I apologize.

[110/220V]

he is merely dropping his weight...it only looks as if rear knee is intentionally drawn into front pocket.

by dropping weight he places hinge at knees, and less intention to hinge at waist (although he appears to drive rear knee and bend forward at waist).

The majority of coaches, riders use (bend forward or toward snow-look) as model with little regard for consequence toward body mechanics. If you use the hinge to our physical design, there is no need to 'look' like a hardbootercarver...thus no need to bend at waist to position yourself lower or 'dynamic'

the top racers place or plant the weight, to keeping form through turns...the rider in photo holds position, that is why he does not skid

[Beckmann AG]

110/220v,

If I read your comments correctly, what the photos represent to you,(rear knee/leg wise) is a byproduct.

Now in your opinion, would he be better off if, while 'dropping his weight', his knees were to track parallel, or does it really matter?

The majority of coaches, riders use (bend forward or toward snow-look) as model with little regard for consequence toward body mechanics.

That does seem to be the case. What, do you suppose, is up with that?

Thanks for making the effort.

NSR?

[110/220V]

haha yes...of course my opinion

well if knees are track parallel with the drop he is a poult...

with our pelvic girdle and musculature, ideal angulation (use knee for hinge, and not waist) would create the illusion of the knee pocket, yea?

there is some movement at the knees toward center, but that happens when I drop accordingly.

Too many preoccupied with look of carving, or where to place body for effect...and I never understood why...to cover inadequacies?

[slopestar]

Video please.

http://www.onetruemedia.com/otm_site/view_shared?p=a250a3b034d24bb3f048ca&skin_id=701#

This is all I have online that I could find on short notice. Pow day from 05' on a really flat run.

<embed src="http://www.onetruemedia.com/share_view_player?p=a250a3b034d24bb3f048ca" quality="high" scale="noscale" wmode="transparent" name="FLVPlayer" salign="LT" flashvars="&p=a250a3b034d24bb3f048ca&skin_id=701&host=http://www.onetruemedia.com" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" pluginspage="http://www.macromedia.com/go/getflashplayer" width="408" height="382">

Photo and video editing at www.OneTrueMedia.com

[Beckmann AG]

well if knees are track parallel with the drop he is a poult...

Sorry, I don't follow that. Perhaps my question was misleading(I meant for his knees to remain more or less the same distance from each other through their range of motion). Clarify?

... ideal angulation (use knee for hinge, and not waist) would create the illusion of the knee pocket, yea?

I concur with your assessment, illusion or otherwise...

Because:

The majority seem to have feet which collapse medially. This encourages a splayed stance, which in turn brings the knees closer together during flexion.

However, this is less than ideal, despite being a statistical norm.

[BobD]

Really appreciate the civilized discussion going here, that we all can learn from. Props guys.

[slopestar]

Not true. Catek, Bomber, Donek and Madd all provided demos for SNES #1.

We decided not to request demos from vendors for SNES #2 since the demos really were not used all that much during SNES #1. Even so, we still had 20+ boards to try out since most everyone did a quiver share for SNES #2.

Sorry that I missed that. Perhaps this year I can make it and some vendors can send some gear!

I have been offered many many times to try this or that from others here locally and that has been great but I have not really hooked up with anyone other than Arclite/carving chef/george s/king crimson/Zeatre? Luca? and his wife. All great people for sure.

I suppose when I have more days this winter on the Bx deck instead of the ultra prime that I have used a day here or there for the last 10 years, I will have a better grasp of things. Baby steps for a softboot carver I guess?