Walk Mode--Anecdotal really doesn't cut it.

[bumpyride]

Everyone seems to have an opinion on riding Hardboots in the "Walk Mode". Seems that the best way to determine whether or not it's a wise thing to do is take a poll, trying to factor in most of the relevant parameters aside from "I don't think".

For this poll we'll declare a "serious injury" as anything more serious than a moderate sprain.

Determine whether or not your injury was caused by something other than the mode you ride in. If it was on account of hitting a tree or being hit or just sucking that day, etc. then disqualify that injury whether it's in walk or ride mode and check not injured. Trying to find out percentages of injuries caused by both modes. Prime examples would be:

1. an ankle sprain or break in the walk mode

2. a tib-fib break in the ride mode especially if it occured at the top of your boot.

3, loss of control from being in either mode

4. an upper body injury from falling because of the boot failure in walk mode.

5. an upper body injury from boot failure in the ride mode.

6. an upper body injury from not being able to get out of a turn because not enough movement to recover from being locked in the ride mode.

7. torn knee from either.

If you had an experience that you feel would have a serious injury if you were riding in the other mode-so note and check that box.

Boot failure does not count as an accident without an injury.

This is personal experience only--Anecdotal does not count. If you had a friend of a friend that got hurt do not check injured for either mode.

Plenty of room for discussion outside of the poll.

[Bullwings]

2. Tib-fib break above boot cuff. Uhh, I had the BTS system with yellow springs...

[shawndoggy]

Might as well get the off topic arc started -- do the cautionary tales about walk mode apply to head boots or just raichle/deeluxe/burton/upz?

[bumpyride]

Might as well get the off topic arc started -- do the cautionary tales about walk mode apply to head boots or just raichle/deeluxe/burton/upz?

Is there something about head boots that I don't know. I guess if they were defective from the get go exclude them, but certainly include the others.

[Kimo]

If you crash hard enough, you're gonna break something. I actually got a fib stress fracture on my lead leg just from using to much toe lift. I have Heads. If you take the lean mechanism apart (like I did when I converted to BTS) you'll quickly see there's no protection whatsoever in walk mode to keep you from hyperflexing (collapsing and destroying) your ankle if you crash hard.

...and I'll add that you'd probably be better off with a Tib/Fib at cuff height than all the soft tissue (e.g. ligaments) damage to your ankle inside the boot cuff if you hyperflex.

[Mike T]

I used to ride the old red Raichle 325's with front foot locked and back foot half-locked (lever down, dial turned 90 degrees)

That is until I landed very flat of a ledge in low visibility while trying a friend's Donek 210. The Donek won, no damage whatsoever. My front/left ankle was severely sprained (and probably fractured... didn't know it at the time). It was in the locked boot. My back foot fared OK, but the boot shell cracked / tore at the joint.

I voted "injured in ride mode" since the injured foot was in ride mode and I can;t really determine whether having it in walk mode would have done more damage or less.

[bumpyride]

It's called walk mode for a reason. Boots are not designed to be ridden in walk mode, and while I haven't been injured, boot breakage (UPZ Ultralight) has occured while doing a silly little drill on a blue slope.

This is exactly why I thought the poll was necessary. If it didn't cause an injury it's exempt. I really wanted to be able to tell how many people (not equipment) have been injured in the walk mode, and get an idea if there's any drastic differences in %'s

Everyone has their own ideas, I am just looking for facts on injuries.

Vote.

[bumpyride]

If you crash hard enough, you're gonna break something. I actually got a fib stress fracture on my lead leg just from using to much toe lift. I have Heads. If you take the lean mechanism apart (like I did when I converted to BTS) you'll quickly see there's no protection whatsoever in walk mode to keep you from hyperflexing (collapsing and destroying) your ankle if you crash hard.

...and I'll add that you'd probably be better off with a Tib/Fib at cuff height than all the soft tissue (e.g. ligaments) damage to your ankle inside the boot cuff if you hyperflex.

Actually I'm just trying to see how many boarders have actually suffered the injuries in the walk mode compared to the ride mode-not what could happen. Just trying to separate the "could happens" from the "did happens"

I'm guessing if enough people actually respond to the poll then we may get a somewhat accurate assessment of which is more dangerous.

Not trying to tick anyone off, just want some stats.

[Ernie00]

been on hardboots for 6 years now.. first 4 years were locked. Then on a trip to Aspen I discovered the walk mode riding with locals. So I used it for 2 years. I was never actually worried about breaking a boot, then again I'm not super heavy. I bought last year the BTS and I'm very happy with them but I could have continued using the walk.

When I installed the BTS I looked at the Locking mecanism and I figured that I could probably modify it to be safer on walk but now that I had the BTS decided not to do it.

[Dr D]

strictly speaking the science behind your experiment is a little flawed unless you know total numbers riding each way. I would guess that more people ride in ride mode so that would skew the results toward that direction unless you account for it. there are enough math whizzes on the site one of them will pop up and help us with the appropriate math no doubt:lurk:

[Galen]

I've blown out the lean adjuster in walk mode. Came completely out of the track and locked forward. Very uncomfortable, slight Achilles strain. If you like the travel of WM, why not just get a BTS? Smoother, safer, IMO.

[bumpyride]

strictly speaking the science behind your experiment is a little flawed unless you know total numbers riding each way. I would guess that more people ride in ride mode so that would skew the results toward that direction unless you account for it. there are enough math whizzes on the site one of them will pop up and help us with the appropriate math no doubt:lurk:

Agreed 100% that any help would be appreciated.

I did try and take into account all riders with no. 1 and 4 options on the poll. I realize that there will be an inherent flaw in the results simply because not every one on BOL will answer, and I find it difficult on how to resolve which kind of riders would be more likely to answer. It's a crap shoot and I tried to be all inclusive, but results are totally dependent on as many riders participating as possible.

The nice thing about the poll is the percentages can be fairly quickly analyzed. If you take the total number of each separately (Walk-Ride) and do the division within that class (Total of injured and uninjured/injured) if you have a large enough sampling, you should be able to justify results.

Get your friends and family to answer the poll. We have over 7000 members I think.

[bumpyride]

I've blown out the lean adjuster in walk mode. Came completely out of the track and locked forward. Very uncomfortable, slight Achilles strain. If you like the travel of WM, why not just get a BTS? Smoother, safer, IMO.

Could you explain what happened and what caused it? Front leg or back?

[xxguitarist]

What does powder mode count as

[bumpyride]

What does powder mode count as

I'm gonna guess walk mode. It would allow forward movement. Not sure if there was a designated walk along with a powder or powder was in lieu of the walk, so unless somebody has a more definitive answer file it in the walk mode.

[xxguitarist]

On raichle/deeluxe, walk allows you to flex between setting 1 and setting 5- I think 5 is most bent forwards, but I could be backwards on that.

If so, powder allows you to flex between 3,4,5 or something like that.

Ride obviously locks you into one position.

[b0ardski]

My Blax have walk/carve/race = free flex/heel locked free foward/full lock.

Minor stress fracture front fib, from slamming a deep trough behind a bump while in race mode. would not have happened in carve mode or my 124 raichles, softer boot

[davekempmeister]

what Kimo said. more specifically, what he wrote. maybe he speaks while he types but I doubt it. got the first ankle sprain of my life in walk mode just last year when my shins were banged up. i'd rather have banged up shins, for sure. i think, in hindsight, walk mode was less the culprit and more attention should hae been paid to my buckles. if i recall correctly, my foot was cranked down and the ankle was too loose. got the "high ankle" strain, i guess. it was all new to me. i'll be in "ride" mode from now on and if I want to soften things up, I'll switch to softies.

[queequeg]

This is exactly why I thought the poll was necessary. If it didn't cause an injury it's exempt. I really wanted to be able to tell how many people (not equipment) have been injured in the walk mode, and get an idea if there's any drastic differences in %'s

Everyone has their own ideas, I am just looking for facts on injuries.

Vote.

I would imagine the weight of the rider, as well as how aggressively s/he is carving would probably have some effect as well. I would imagine that a heavy rider carving aggressively in walk mode would be at much higher risk of than a lighter rider carving aggressively in walk mode.

[b0ardski]

I would imagine the weight of the rider, as well as how aggressively s/he is carving would probably have some effect as well. I would imagine that a heavy rider carving aggressively in walk mode would be at much higher risk than a lighter rider carving aggressively in walk mode.

I totally agree.

I was agressively attacking a steep bump run, I felt the impact but didn't realize the injury for a couple days when the pain got worse.

180# by the way.

I didn't vote becauce I don't fit the catagories.

[Galen]

Could you explain what happened and what caused it? Front leg or back?

I think you've seen this one.

http://www.bomberonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=11051&highlight=forward+lean

I believe it was the rear foot.

[bumpyride]

I think you've seen this one.

http://www.bomberonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=11051&highlight=forward+lean

I believe it was the rear foot.

Hey Galen,

Glad it wasn't too serious and I can understand the concern. Was really wondering why it let go. Were you just going down the slope, or landed a jump or hit a bump. It apparently didn't fall into the "serious injury" category. And, depending on circumstances, may have prevented something more. That's kind of why I said boot failure doesn't count unless there was a serious injury.

I always figured that if something took a measure of force to break it, if the force was disapated it perhaps wouldn't break. You know that old saying, "The straw that broke the Camel's leg". I've heard of a couple of guys breaking their legs at the boot cuff. Stiff immobile boot vs. stiff immobile tib/fib, which breaks first, whereas boot in walk mode has a certain amount of flex which dissapates the intial force on the tib/fib, and that of course can put more force on the tendons in the foot and ankle areas. Thats the reason for the poll. I want to see the actual percentages of serious injuries in both modes.

I started out with Burton Torque (3 strap) bindings. I was continually hyperextending my ankles when hitting the troughs in the bumps. That's why I went to try hardboots. Since then, I've never hyperextended again. I've hit a spot where I've completely folded the nose on my up 90 degrees to the slope, and barely felt it in my leg in walk mode. I'm firmly convinced that if I had been in ride mode I would have broken my leg. So I'm trying to find out what's actually happened to others who ride and have had injuries in both modes.

[bumpyride]

I would imagine the weight of the rider, as well as how aggressively s/he is carving would probably have some effect as well. I would imagine that a heavy rider carving aggressively in walk mode would be at much higher risk of than a lighter rider carving aggressively in walk mode.

I would agree with that. The next question would be, "What's the bone structure like with that heavier rider. Good bone density, heavier weight will be able to flex a stiff boot and not suffer any consequences,(up to a point) but what about those guys with the big beer belly and bird legs. Which mode would actually be better for them--I'm guessing the right BTS would be the answer there.

[b0ardski]

I need BTS.

I,m thinking blue foward yellow heel??

or blue front yellow rear??

I have a surfy style

[tufty]

I smashed a pair of Raichles in walk (well, powder, but same difference) mode with a hard hit last year (involving a treestump and a hole off the side of the slope). Came out of it with a mildly sprained left ankle, a sore right ankle, a further pull on my left knee, like I needed another one, and a minor concussion. Also completely wankered a pair of cheapo binders and snapped my rock board. I am absolutely certain that without the extra flex provided by walk mode I would have either broken a leg or, at the very least, totally trashed my already fragile knee. Breaking some equipment, which is, in the end, just "stuff", is irrelevant.