Walk Mode--Anecdotal really doesn't cut it.

[carvedog]

My Blax have walk/carve/race = free flex/heel locked free foward/full lock.

Troublemaker. Try to fit in ok.

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

[Corey]

i'll be in "ride" mode from now on and if I want to soften things up, I'll switch to softies.

How are softies any different than riding in walk/powder mode? Soft boots don't have any mechanical stops to limit ankle flex. I don't see how riding in walk mode could increase the risk of ankle injury over what's present while riding in soft boots.

How many people have played with the standard forward lean adjuster out of the boot? You can pull it apart with two hands when in walk/powder mode. The little plastic tabs that keep it together seem to be designed to keep it from falling apart during assembly, not to provide any hard stops while on the boot.

[BadBrad]

I'm not sure how to answer the poll. I sometimes ride in walk mode (mostly if the terrain is bumpy) and sometimes locked in ride mode. Boots are Burton Wind. I've never had a lower leg injury riding in hardboots either way, and I've never had any failure of the ride/walk mechanism on the boots.

The only injury I've had in hardboots was a shoulder injury, no relation to ride/walk mode.

[bumpyride]

I'm not sure how to answer the poll. I sometimes ride in walk mode (mostly if the terrain is bumpy) and sometimes locked in ride mode. Boots are Burton Wind. I've never had a lower leg injury riding in hardboots either way, and I've never had any failure of the ride/walk mechanism on the boots.

The only injury I've had in hardboots was a shoulder injury, no relation to ride/walk mode.

Troublemaker! You're one of those guys that are lucky enough to be in uncertain waters on the poll, although you do ride in the walk mode, and the poll was started to see how what percentage of people that use the walk mode are injured, so use your best judgement.

[Erik J]

Great poll, I've tried to get info on riding in walk mode in the past and have only wound up with lots of opinions on the matter and no real facts.

I ride in walk mode - never had boot breakage or injury.

At higher angles (60+ deg) I like the fore and aft flex for absorbing terrain/landings while still having tons of lateral support for hard carving. With lower angles I imagine that this may change the effects ie, at 40deg angles the fore and aft motion of being in walk mode starts to face the edges of the board more than the nose and tail. What I mean to say is, I probably would not ride in walk mode at lower angles - for me it works at higher angles.

Crack kills.

[Sinecure]

I voted for the injury while in walk mode, despite your suggestion to the contrary. I was hurt because I hit rocks under the snow as I ascended a wall/cliff on a powder day in walk mode. Would I have torn my achilles in ride mode? Maybe? Would I have gotten hurt if it weren't for the rocks? Duh. No. But I was in walk mode and I did get hurt. Completely tore my forward foot achilles tendon.

I still ride in walk mode on powder days though.

[bumpyride]

I voted for the injury while in walk mode, despite your suggestion to the contrary. I was hurt because I hit rocks under the snow as I ascended a wall/cliff on a powder day in walk mode. Would I have torn my achilles in ride mode? Maybe? Would I have gotten hurt if it weren't for the rocks? Duh. No. But I was in walk mode and I did get hurt. Completely tore my forward foot achilles tendon.

I still ride in walk mode on powder days though.

Were you ascending or descending?

[KingCrimson]

minor concussion.

With a helmet?

I was never outspoken about helmets, but after having 2 concussions, it's something you NEVER wanna play with.

[yyzcanuck]

I believe the very nature of this poll makes it completely anecdotal.

Anecdotal means based upon personal observation as opposed to systematically (scientifically?) collected data.

[bumpyride]

Found this while looking for the force required to break the tib/fib. Only applies to landing a jump, but I figure you could extrapolate a reasonable guess how much more you can absorb when you leg is allowed to flex forward. Scroll down to the last paragraph or two if you're not a techno wonk.

jumping.pdf

[bumpyride]

I believe the very nature of this poll makes it completely anecdotal.

Anecdotal means based upon personal observation as opposed to systematically (scientifically?) collected data.

I wouldn't totally agree or disagree with that.

Anecdotal: Definition, pertaining to, marked by, or consisting of anecdotes.

Anecdote" Definition, a short narrative concerning a particular incident or event of an interesting or amusing nature

This poll only asks for facts, not narratives. Narratives are placed within the thread, not the actual poll.

Obviously we have to rely on personal observations from parties that are involved with the results we're looking for. I don't believe anyone is going to fund a scientific experiment with such a small cross-section of the populus. We're systematically asking all 7000 members of BOL to give us their experiences. We cannot make everyone who Hardboots answer a long questionaire, so we're taking a sampling. Sampling is a valid way for taking a poll, subject to variations. How they assign varaibles-I don't know. Seemed like the best way to get away from opinions and at least cross-section results.

[yyzcanuck]

Anecdotal

1. pertaining to, resembling, or containing anecdotes: an anecdotal history of jazz.

2. (of the treatment of subject matter in representational art) pertaining to the relationship of figures or to the arrangement of elements in a scene so as to emphasize the story content of a subject. Compare narrative (def. 6).

3. based on personal observation, case study reports, or random investigations rather than systematic scientific evaluation: anecdotal evidence.

I'm going with number 3 on this one... the poll is completely anecdotal because all of the evidence is collected through personal observation and purely non-systematic.

In addition to the anecdotal data, you have respondents clearly not following the poll instructions. For instance, Sinecure is injured because he hit some rocks ("I was hurt because I hit rocks under the snow as I ascended a wall/cliff on a powder day in walk mode.").

Your instructions state... "Determine whether or not your injury was caused by something other than the mode you ride in. If it was on account of hitting a tree or being hit or just sucking that day, etc. then disqualify that injury whether it's in walk or ride mode and check not injured."

Sinecure "voted for the injury while in walk mode". Data point now invalid.

[bumpyride]

1. pertaining to, resembling, or containing anecdotes: an anecdotal history of jazz.

2. (of the treatment of subject matter in representational art) pertaining to the relationship of figures or to the arrangement of elements in a scene so as to emphasize the story content of a subject. Compare narrative (def. 6).

3. based on personal observation, case study reports, or random investigations rather than systematic scientific evaluation: anecdotal evidence.

I'm going with number 3 on this one... the poll is completely anecdotal because all of the evidence is collected through personal observation and purely non-systematic.

OK, you win. Does it make it any less valid?

[yyzcanuck]

It makes the data invalid... but not the poll. The poll is an opinion or personal observation poll.

Readers should take it as such, not as any sort of scientific basis for riding in one mode or the other.

This wasn't meant to be an exercise in proving you wrong. I'm just of the opinion that decisions should be made on sound data.

I don't think the poll will allow anyone to make a correlation between injuries and boot mode but... some people will do precisely that.

How to answer the poll?:

In 1998 I broke my leg while riding on a board that was too soft for the slushy snow conditons. The board stopped going forward much faster than I did. My leading leg was broken (Tib - clean break, fib - spiral fracture) about 5cm above the ankle joint. Boots were Raichle ski boots without any sort of walk mode feature.

[cail]

you could redo the poll without the speculative answers (e.g. would have been worse in walk/ride mode) if you really want to appease the pseudo-scientists (...to be taken with humour) :D

it's interesting to see what people think would be worse, and comparing that to the actual numbers of who was actually injured in which mode. though keeping the injuries to a certain type would be more beneficial for comparison (such as tib/fib breaks).

[yyzcanuck]

you could redo the poll without the speculative answers (e.g. would have been worse in walk/ride mode) if you really want to appease the pseudo-scientists (...to be taken with humour) :D

That would be 'pseudo-crypto-quasi scientist' to you!

We've had this boot mode discussion a couple of times now. From my personal observations I can say that if you think the Raichle/DeeLuxe lean mechanism is going to save you from a broken leg, you're wrong. Just look at the poll results... similar numbers of riders are NOT injured in walk mode & ride mode. (Yes, I'm using the data from the poll to support my observations!)

Riding in walk or powder mode, the 5 position mechanism can come apart allowing the cuff to travel as far forward as your body can accomodate. That accomodation may result in an injury. If this worries you... don't do it.

Riding in a locked position 1-5, the 5 position mechanism is less likely to come apart but still can, particularly in position 5 where the mechanism may experience a bending moment if the cuff is flexed further forward due to heavy stresses caused by a fall. If this worries you, change out to the RAB or spring mechanism.

The same holds true for the RAB or spring system. I've seen the retaining pins break when subjected to heavy stresses. If this worries you, make stronger retaining pins.

No matter how you look at it, something can break when stressed beyond its design limits. I don't believe it has anything to do with your boot mode. Lean mechanism, retaining pins, pivot point hardware (cuff cant, half moon rivet) tibia, fibula, board, binding... hell, even your karma might break if tested to its breaking point.

Boots are mechanical devices. They need constant and thorough maintenance. Check things over. Replace as necessary.

[cail]

[bumpyride]

It makes the data invalid... but not the poll.

The poll is an opinion or personal observation poll.

Readers should take it as such, not as any sort of scientific basis for riding in one mode or the other.

This wasn't meant to be an exercise in proving you wrong. I'm just of the opinion that decisions should be made on sound data.

I don't think the poll will allow anyone to make a correlation between injuries and boot mode but... some people will do precisely that.

Perhaps hyperbole would have been a better choice of words.

In the scientific sense it would not hold up, and it never was intended to be a totally scientific experiment. I really wasn't about to use it for my Doctorate Thesis, but then how would you have a scientific experiment to prove/dispprove what has actually occurred. I couldn't think of a better tool to at least shed some light on this rather than pure hyperbole by people who have not actually been involved with both types of riding

The point is for anyone riding to have a better overview to make a rational decision. No one has quantified any results to date, and that was the goal. I would encourage everyone to try and get as much input as possible. In a smaller sampling the correlation may have a less accurate result so vote.

Personally I feel the more information that a person can obtain, allows them to make a much more informed decision on how they ride. It was getting tiring reading people who basically had no basis for their remarks, unless they had actual experience. I always question opinions when they are stated as facts. When asking questions I most always ask "Do you know this or are you just guessing, or do you know for sure?" It's very surprising how many retorts are "I think". I always compliment anyone that says, "I don't know", and tell them that's a much better answer than pretending they know. At least the poll gives people a chance to answer in an anecdote of personal experience .

If the poll garners large enough numbers, I would hope that people might use it to guide their final decision, whatever that may be.

yyzcanuck Thanks for making your points, they have been taken seriously.

Again please vote.

[yyzcanuck]

Whether the data is valid or not, you can draw a conclusion from the poll. People have been both injured and not injured using both modes (walk & ride).

One of my favourite quotes comes from The Carver's Almanac: "In carving, there are more opinions than there are facts."

[forrest]

Just to throw more 'pseudo-crypto-quasi scientist' opinion into the discussion one can not use a correlation interchangeably with a cause and effect relationship. We could learn how these two factors correlate with each other but not whether Walk or Ride causes Injury

Cheers

[Phil]

I would bet that there are more leg injuries in hardbooting because people have narrower than optimal stances. I see these stances quite regularly. With a narrow stance, you do not have the leverage over the board that you should. When something goes wrong, the board has leverage over you. Widen the stance up and you have leverage even when things go wrong. In these situations, you will be more likely to break the board than the other way around, but I prefer that option.

[Jon Dahl]

I typically ride groom with front/both boots locked, mostly pow mode on the back foot now. Would prefer to have BTS system, though, as I like some flex in the boots. Now, OTOH, when I use my Dynafit A/T boots, walk mode is the norm. The "ride" mode is a simple wire to lock the cuff that is all but worthless. I threw mine in a drawer somewhere, and do not know how to put a RABS on them things! Most I've had is an ankle flexion strain from a off-camber landing in an unexpected hole just off-piste of a run. I do not think locked would have made any difference to the ankle in that situation. Just my personal observations, probably not worth $.02 but given anyway.

[bumpyride]

I would bet that there are more leg injuries in hardbooting because people have narrower than optimal stances. I see these stances quite regularly. With a narrow stance, you do not have the leverage over the board that you should. When something goes wrong, the board has leverage over you. Widen the stance up and you have leverage even when things go wrong. In these situations, you will be more likely to break the board than the other way around, but I prefer that option.

Couldn't figure out why last year my riding was less controlled, until I spread my bingings back to where they were the year before (another inch wider).

[bumpyride]

The maximum force that the smallest area of the tibia can take is 1:6£103

bars times 105 N/m2 per bar times 3:2 £ 10¡4 m2 times 2 (for two legs) is

Fmax = 1:0£105 N. If we take Fmax = Ffloor when the tibia just breaks, and

solving for h=¢h, we get (h=¢h)max = 173 .

So, if you don't bend your knees (take ¢h = 1 cm), you will break your

legs jumping from only 1.7 m. If you bend your knees 0.5 m, your leg bones

may survive a leap from 87 m! (Please don't try this yourself though!! This

problem considers only damage to bones{ in fact other tissues in your body

could get damaged in a fall from a height of more than a few meters).

And if you are falling into something soft and cushiony, or into water, ¢h

(and ¢t) are relatively larger. Parachutists are trained to maximize time and

displacement of impact when landing by crouching and rolling. And compare

a dive to a belly-°op: small ¢h and ¢t during the collision ) hurts more!

The more that I boil down the poll, the realization that what I'm really looking for is ratio of tib/fib knee breaks and tears in the ride mode compared to ankle tendon, knee breaks and tears in walk mode. I made the assumpiton that if a boot was able to transfer an amount of stress fro the leg by being able to flex, that it might mitigate leg breaks to some extent. The unknown was how many people have been injured in the walk mode compared to the ride mode. Obviously the MIT study about tib fib compression breaks is not totally relevant, but I would chose to use this until a study came to light disputing my assumption that it takes far less force to cause a break when the leg is allowed to bend. Back to the straw that broke the camel's leg.

I also saw a study about ski boots and injuries pertaining to knees and tib/fib breaks at the boot cuff and how much they have increased with higher and stiffer boots where the leg was locked in place. Of course there were other injuries with softer/shorter boots, but not of the same kind. So far I've only broken ribs, that wasn't particularly pleasant and those healed, and now have a bunged up shoulder that will never quite be the same until they can figure out hot to get some teflon in there. Soft tissue injuries may be much harder to heal.

Snaping my leg at the boot cuff scares the heck out of me, and even though it may be worse, I haven't been as afraid of an ankle injury. That's another reason for the poll, I wanted to see how prevalant injuries in the walk mode were. I couldn't even imagine trying to get anywhere with bottom half of my lower leg flapping in the breeze and at a 90 degree angle.

So anyway, now I'm starting to form some opinions, none of which (so far) will change my riding.

Truth be told--Really let's face it, we're all looking for validation for our opinions, but altruistically I'm still hoping that this will help all to make more informed decisions.

[tufty]

With a helmet?

I was never outspoken about helmets, but after having 2 concussions, it's something you NEVER wanna play with.

Without, but let's not go there, eh? One can of worms at a time :)