Altering the turn radius of a carved turn on steep terrain

[nicholaswmin]

How can you alter the turn-radius of a purely carved turn?

I plan to use this as a tactic for speed regulation on steep groomed terrain.

I do SBX race training and our daily training consisted of descending steep groomers using purely carved turns.

• Skidding to speed check is entirely out of the question. Our SBX coach is very explicit on this.
• I'd also like to avoid slight uphills, as they are a form of speed dump.

I want to regulate my speed via turn shape and avoid building it up in excess in the first place.

The 2 ways to do this, I figure, would be to travel more across the traverse and at the same time shorten the radius of the turn.

I currently ride my sidecut like a passenger which leads to:

• A wide turn
• Spending too much time in the fall-line rapidly picking up speed
• I cannot dump later on in the completion phase of the turn.
• After 2 or 3 turns I am zooming down at supersonic speeds
• The resulting pressure build-up eventually exceeds my limits and I overload my edge and end up sliding out.

Cranking my edge angles high to shorten my carved turn radius produces very abrupt pressure spikes on the bottom-half of the turn. 

How does a racer tackle this?

--- 

The current technique I use is an up-unweighted/cross-over turn followed by a progressive lower-body flexion in the control/completion phase to absorb the pressure that builds up.

Is the indicated technique doing a regular cross-over turn and just dealing with the pressure by sheer muscular strength and balance or is there some special type of technique here? 

PS: I've read that old carving steeps article. 

PS 2: This isn't about SBX track riding. Our training on piste doesn't resemble what you would use on a track. This is about speed control on steep piste using carved turns.

[Carvin' Marvin]

21 minutes ago, nicholaswmin said:

How can you alter the turn-radius of a carved turn?

Push harder or on a different fore/aft section of the board if using variable radius.  Tip board higher or lower on edge.

 

22 minutes ago, nicholaswmin said:

And can you do that as a tactic to carve steeps? By carving short-radius turns?

Right now, on steeps the only way I have to control my speed is to finish the turn and maybe turn uphill. But that's slowww. Cranking the edge angle high on a regular cross-over turn requires to deal with a lot of pressure on the bottom half of the turn, especially on steeps.

Yes, along with early turn initiation.   You can't have your cake and eat it too.  You can either have speed control or not be slowww. Gotta pick one.  Given that steep slopes are indeed steeper I would expect there to be more gravitational force to deal with.  Conservation of energy and all.

24 minutes ago, nicholaswmin said:

Is the indicated technique doing a regular cross-over turn and just dealing with the pressure by sheer muscular strength and balance or is there some special type of technique here?

Same technique just more force and speed. For me at least.  I try to get on the nose earlier so the board has less time to point straight down and pick up speed.  

[nicholaswmin]

So, to clarify this is a continuation of this post: 

 

 

I've gotten the impression from more than one person (my coach included but we didn't expand) that there are ways to carve short-radius turns which allow you to control your speed on steeper terrain (short-radius = not enough time to pickup speed). I wonder if I understood correctly. 

Quote

 

early turn initiation

 

 

 

 

That's a synonym for early edge change I suppose? Where you change edge across the fall-line instead of parallel to it?

 

 

Quote

 

Push harder

 

 

 

How would a push alter the radius? I mean It's gonna bend the board more, that I get, but that bend is only momentary isn't it? It's not like my legs push will magically make me heavier for the *duration* of the turn. 

Plus, how would you push in a cross-over (up-unweighted) turn? You start the turn extended. By the time you get low to get enough range-of-movement to push again the board has picked up speed.

PS: No sarcasm intended, just trying to figure this out.

[ThePeonsChamp]

Imo the key for me to carving the steeps was for me to learn how to carve at the lowest speeds possible. Minimum carving speed. Learn it on blues and greens then progress. I had a lot of Hip checks on the snow learning this so don't be afraid to put on some extra padding. On the steeps you'll be surprised at how slowly you can carve, just make sure you really absorb the lower body on since on the steeps you'll have less time to transition or you'll get too much speed.

[nicholaswmin]

10 minutes ago, ThePeonsChamp said:

Imo the key for me to carving the steeps was for me to learn how to carve at the lowest speeds possible. Minimum carving speed. Learn it on blues and greens then progress. I had a lot of Hip checks on the snow learning this so don't be afraid to put on some extra padding. On the steeps you'll be surprised at how slowly you can carve, just make sure you really absorb the lower body on since on the steeps you'll have less time to transition or you'll get too much speed.

I understand how to work out pressure management/absorption on an up-unweighted. 

The focus of my post is whether there's another turn technique altogether.

[Jonny]

29 minutes ago, nicholaswmin said:

I understand how to work out pressure management/absorption on an up-unweighted. 

The focus of my post is whether there's another turn technique altogether.

There kind of is, but it depends on your setup. If you're angles are fairly low, and the middle of the board relatively soft, then as you come down on the new edge you can be deliberately squeezing your knees together. The idea is to take all the camber out early and even create some rocker before that edge is even really heavily weighted. Doesn't work, at least not for me, with angles much above 55, but is amenable to cross-over or cross-under.

In an absolute emergency (avoiding a tree or civilian) you can commit to your back foot and PULL your front foot back and up as you commit hard to the new edge, which does the same thing but even more strongly. Not desirable as a standard technique of course because you're 100% back-footed.

[kibber]

hope to explain this good enough, but I take away some of the transition/acceleration on steeps by unweighting enough to swivel tail a bit; ie, board is 90° perpendicular to fall line, or even acute on uphill side (turning uphill) when completing a turn, then swivel/set new turn-edge at 45° pointing downhill (racers do this). Granted, not as pretty as less-steep, “C” shape rolls into next turn. Also, I stay low the whole time on steep terrain. Great topic.

[RRrider]

Following.

i have been thinking about this too.

[Jack M]

3 hours ago, nicholaswmin said:

How would a push alter the radius? I mean It's gonna bend the board more, that I get, but that bend is only momentary isn't it?

Yes it is.

A good way to alter the turn radius mid-turn is angulation.  That's a PSIA term for creating angles in the body.  What it allows you to do is use a higher edge angle than your lean angle (inclination angle).  You put your lower body into the turn more than your upper body.  A quick and easy way to try this on toeside is to push on the tongue of your front boot and bend your knees.  Reach your front hand towards your front foot.  Just be ready for that board to start turning tighter, and quickly!  On heelside, reach that back hand towards your front foot, and drive your front knee toward the snow.

Also, it really helps to turn your head and LOOK across the hill at where you want the carve to end.  It's practically impossible if you are just looking downhill or diagonally downhill.

[noschoolrider]

1 hour ago, nicholaswmin said:

I understand how to work out pressure management/absorption on an up-unweighted.

Pressure management/absorption is used when the edge is engaged.

Unweighting is used to release the edge.  Expert riders/skiers do not need to actively unweight to change edges.

Pressure management/absorption is done regardless of how you unweight (retract, rebound-unweight, down-unweight, up-unweight, or terrain-unweight).

You also seem to be confused about transitions and unweighting.  Example: If you are flexed you can cross-over with and upward movement.  If you are extended you can cross-over with a downward movement.  If you are skilled, and somewhere between fully flexed and fully extended then you can cross-over just by moving across the board even if the edge is fully pressured.

A cross-over transition usually has the timing/rhythm of a longer radius turn and therefore it's not the best choice for quick speed control type turns on a steep slope.

To continue to carve down the hill on a steep slope you need to get on your new edged as quick as possible, be comfortable with higher speeds, and initiate the next turn sooner than you think (until it becomes second nature).  Otherwise, you will need to scrub speed by traversing, turning uphill or skidding.

[noschoolrider]

1 hour ago, kibber said:

then swivel/set new turn-edge at 45° pointing downhill (racers do this).

This is often referred to as a drift turn but snowboard racers usually do this to take a tighter line, thus the drift (less friction) instead of skid (more friction) for speed control.

[nicholaswmin]

Thanks for the detailed reply but just to clarify:

Quote

Pressure management/absorption is used when the edge is engaged.

The pressure management/absorption I mean there is the flexion movement I need to do at the bottom half of the turn. It has nothing to do with the edge change or turn initiation. I was only replying to the person above who was giving advice how to absorb pressure, explaining that I already know how to do that and that's not the focus of my question.

My point is that my regular up-unweighted turn results in a big radius turn so I have to deal with a large amount of that pressure at the bottom-half of the turn.

I'm trying to confirm if there's a way to have a smaller radius, quicker type of turn that avoids speed build-ups and therefore negates having to deal with a big amount of pressure at the bottom-half my turn. In essence I want to avoid pressure build-up rather than absorb it.
 

Quote

You also seem to be confused about transitions and unweighting.  Example: If you are flexed you can cross-over with and upward movement.  If you are extended you can cross-over with a downward movement

I don't think I'm confused.

• Up-unweighted, extend to unweight, then cross-over my COM laterally. Also known as the cross-over turn. <- This is what I currently do.
• Down-unweighted, dropdown to unweight, then cross-over my COM laterally. Also known as the cross-through turn.
• Retraction turn, pull up the board with your legs to unweight and cross it under a silent upper body. Also known as the cross-under turn.

 

Or wait a minute... you mean that those aren't just alternative ways to call turns. The cross-through isn't just another name for down-unweighted. It's the name of the transition. The down-unweighted is the unweighting. 

Therefore an edge change is composed of an unweighting and a transition?

The unweighting can be up/down.

The transition is the cross-over,cross-through, cross-under?

Is that correct? 
 

Quote

 

A cross-over transition usually has the timing/rhythm of a longer radius turn and therefore it's not the best choice for quick speed control type turns on a steep slope.

 

 

 

This is also important for me.

If the cross-over is not the best choice, which is it the best and why?

 

 

Edited March 14 by nicholaswmin

[nicholaswmin]

1 hour ago, Jack M said:

Yes it is.

A good way to alter the turn radius mid-turn is angulation.  That's a PSIA term for creating angles in the body.  What it allows you to do is use a higher edge angle than your lean angle (inclination angle).  You put your lower body into the turn more than your upper body.  A quick and easy way to try this on toeside is to push on the tongue of your front boot and bend your knees.  Reach your front hand towards your front foot.  Just be ready for that board to start turning tighter, and quickly!  On heelside, reach that back hand towards your front foot, and drive your front knee toward the snow.

Also, it really helps to turn your head and LOOK across the hill at where you want the carve to end.  It's practically impossible if you are just looking downhill or diagonally downhill.

So the advice here is keep doing cross-over (up-unweighted) turns but angulate more so you can crank higher edge angles hence shorter radius turns.

[Jack M]

38 minutes ago, nicholaswmin said:

So the advice here is keep doing cross-over (up-unweighted) turns but angulate more so you can crank higher edge angles hence shorter radius turns.

Cross-over/under/through are names of different ways to change edges.  Angulation is something you can do throughout the carve, independently of the edge change.

[nicholaswmin]

8 minutes ago, Jack M said:

Cross-over/under/through are names of different ways to change edges.  Angulation is something you can do throughout the carve, independently of the edge change.

Yes no confusion there. You don't have a suggestion on a different turn type for steeps. I should keep changing edges the way I already do. Up-unweighted/cross-over.

The angulation you suggest happens through the carve, its how I create angles in my body which in turn allows me to crank higher edge angles.

 

 

 

Edited March 14 by nicholaswmin

[Jack M]

As noschoolrider says, cross-under or through are going to serve you better on the steeps. 

[nicholaswmin]

Just now, Jack M said:

As noschoolrider says, cross-under or through are going to serve you better on the steeps. 

That's my initial suspicion. The question is how and why?

[noschoolrider]

42 minutes ago, nicholaswmin said:

Cross-over is another name for up-unweighted and that's what I already do.

No, it is not another name for up-unweighted.

Go back and read what I said about cross-over using up, down or no vertical movement.  You need to separate the old ski instruction/coaching dogma from what can be done on a snowboard. 

50 minutes ago, nicholaswmin said:

There's another turn type to use.

Yes.  With all the information provided it should be obvious.  However, you seem to be too hung up on cross-over transitions and up-unweighting.  Hint, what is the fastest turn transition you can make (from a position that has the best balance) and allows quick edge contact?

Also, you should checkout all of my comments here...

Here is a video that also might be helpful...

 

[nicholaswmin]

1 minute ago, noschoolrider said:

No, it is not another name for up-unweighted.

Go back and read what I said about cross-over using up, down or no vertical movement.  You need to separate the old ski instruction/coaching dogma from what can be done on a snowboard. 

Yes.  With all the information provided it should be obvious.  However, you seem to be too hung up on cross-over transitions and up-unweighting.  Hint, what is the fastest turn transition you can make (from a position that has the best balance) and allows quick edge contact?

Also, you should checkout all of my comments here...

Here is a video that also might be helpful...

 

Thanks! 

Btw, unrelated to the original question but I think I got what you meant by unweighting and transition. I've edited my comment above but I'll paste it here.

 

Quote

 

Or wait a minute... you mean that those aren't just alternative ways to call turns. The cross-through isn't just another name for down-unweighted. It's the name of the transition. The down-unweighted is the unweighting. 

Therefore an edge change is composed of an unweighting and a transition?

The unweighting can be up/down.

The transition is the cross-over,cross-through, cross-under?

Is that correct? 

 

 

[noschoolrider]

3 minutes ago, nicholaswmin said:

The question is how and why?

Are you going to heist that content?

[nicholaswmin]

7 minutes ago, noschoolrider said:

Are you going to heist that content?

Possibly! My butler is asking for a raise.

 

 

Edited March 14 by nicholaswmin

[noschoolrider]

5 minutes ago, nicholaswmin said:

Or wait a minute... you mean that those aren't just alternative ways to call turns. The cross-through isn't just another name for down-unweighted. It's the name of the transition. The down-unweighted is the unweighting. 

Therefore an edge change is composed of an unweighting and a transition?

The unweighting can be up/down.

The transition is the cross-over,cross-through, cross-under?

Is that correct?

Yes, that is why I said "You also seem to be confused about transitions and unweighting".

[nicholaswmin]

1 minute ago, noschoolrider said:

Yes, that is why I said "You also seem to be confused about transitions and unweighting".

Bammm mind blown. Thanks.

 

Quote

Hint, what is the fastest turn transition you can make (from a position that has the best balance) and allows quick edge contact?

A down-unweighting since it allows me to get my COM low and a cross-under transition since i use my lower body to change edge?

[Odd Job]

You're gonna need lots of edge angle pretty quickly and really good balance.

[nicholaswmin]

5 minutes ago, Odd Job said:

You're gonna need lots of edge angle pretty quickly and really good balance.

I've been impressed and confused - these are cross-under turns. The unweighting is done using the rebound of the board?

They aren't even S-turns. I change edge across the fall-line. This guy doesn't even go across the fall-line...