Altering the turn radius of a carved turn on steep terrain

[Neil Gendzwill]

5 hours ago, Jack M said:

Same thing.  A.k.a buttering, slarving, slide-lock, etc.

Benny Karl is the master here.

I don’t think buttering is in the same universe as slarving. 
 

OP you’ve mentioned pressure building up in the last half of the turn several times. The solution to that is to much more aggressively pressure very early in the turn. If you casually tip it over and let the pressure build it works fine on easy slopes but as you’ve observed gets you in more trouble the steeper it gets.  I’m no technical expert like the others who have replied so far but I definitely have the most success on steeper terrain when I commit early. This means a quite aggressive move from the uphill edge to the downhill edge which takes some courage especially from toe to heel when you’re hucking over your shoulder blind. 
 

There’s a nice video or two of Corey explaining this early pressure concept on YouTube if you search SES carving clinic you should find it. 

[nicholaswmin]

19 minutes ago, Rob Stevens said:

If you need to ask why, go out to your steepest black run and freecarve without sliding some portion of one of your turns.

When you get out of the hospital, ask that question again, but rhetorically. 

You've mentioned this before but there's no shortage of people carving steeps.

No "skivot/drift" here either.

 

Quote

This one and then I’m done. 

Yup understood, much appreciated for all the replies this far. Super helpful.

 

 

Edited March 15 by nicholaswmin

[nicholaswmin]

 

18 minutes ago, Neil Gendzwill said:

There’s a nice video or two of Corey explaining this early pressure concept

Yeah this one:

 

Edited March 15 by nicholaswmin

[Rob Stevens]

On 3/13/2024 at 4:23 PM, nicholaswmin said:

How does a racer tackle this?

Literally from your first post, you asked about racing. 

People answer with freecarve advice and you remind us that it’s about racing. 

So it’s moved to the Racing forum. 

You then say it’s not about racing. 

Then you post James’ video of him at a moderate pace, with a quick switch and generating early edge angle well above the fall line, but taking the whole runs width on perfect RMR groomers to say he doesn’t pivot, or drift, or do anything other than perfect carves. 
 

News flash: That’s how you do that, but you seem to know. 
 

Like your coach who you’ve broken up with, maybe we’re being trolled too. 
 

Now I’m done. 
 

[Jack M]

3 hours ago, nicholaswmin said:

You've mentioned this before but there's no shortage of people carving steeps.

No "skivot/drift" here either.

Yeah that’s either hero snow or not steep. 

[Corey]

3 hours ago, nicholaswmin said:

 

Yeah this one:

 

That's literally the opposite of racing. We're trying to slow down by carving big arcs. 

Does any of that translate to an SBX course? Maybe, I'd ask an SBX coach rather than some flatland dude that snowboards on weekends! 

[nicholaswmin]

There's a little bit of a misunderstanding here. I've gotten my answers for racing. The question is answered. I'm asking a separate question now in an attempt to compare the 2 styles.

I could have made that more clear or opened a new topic.

13 hours ago, Rob Stevens said:

Like your coach who you’ve broken up with, maybe we’re being trolled too

I appreciate your direct way of replying and I've been a bit all over the place by blending different questions but that was just a completely unnecessary comment. Not sure how it served you to bring that in the discussion, much less why you decided to specifically phrase it as a personal attack even though you know nothing about the circumstances of that situation.

I've tried my best to be courteous to you and seeked your advice specifically since you presided over CASI at some point and you're an actual racing coach. I did not expect that kind of reply.

No you're not being trolled and again thanks for the replies on the technicalities of racing.

Edited March 16 by nicholaswmin

[nicholaswmin]

7 hours ago, Corey said:

Does any of that translate to an SBX course

No, not in a course but it helps me compare styles "racing" vs "freecarving" on steeps.

 

Edited March 16 by nicholaswmin

[philw]

39 minutes ago, nicholaswmin said:

No "skivot/drift" here [from Cherry] either.

Because Cherry isn't trying to alter his line around a gate whilst maintaining speed. In fact he's attempting to keep his line, not change it: this turn is the last thing he would want to use.

As someone racy said earlier:
  "In engaging this slide, you can maintain or reduce speed ..."
It's a line-changing technique, which fulfils the thread title. Outside a race you'd not do that aside from in emergency; maintaining your line is more elegant.

• Cherry isn't "drifting" because he doesn't need to correct his line around a gate.
   
• He's not dumping speed much either, because he's riding well groomed terrain which isn't terribly steep or technical.

The "special type of technique" Cherry's using is to pick one easy slope to demonstrate dressage on. One needs to understand what's been demonstrated and what is not.
 

[Neil Gendzwill]

James doesn’t carve super steep stuff but he’s carving about as steep as you get for groomed runs. He claims 33 degrees for the slope in this video which seems about right given the angle of the trees. I don’t think many of us here could link as many turns as he does here on this slope and he’s doing it in soft boots. 
 

 

[noschoolrider]

Here's a quote from Snowboard Cross (SBX) racer Nick Baumgartne 10 years ago (and it's still valid today):

The only thing certain about snowboard cross was the sheer unpredictability of it.  You can't be ready for everything that is going to happen, you just go as fast as you can," he told Reuters TV.  "I mean we're flying down the hill at 60 or 70 miles per hour and we're hitting the biggest jumps and we're hitting them full speed. And we are actually hitting them faster than you should probably hit a jump of that size.  But it's what it is, man, the adrenaline, we are chasing it and I'm fine in it.  You have to be aggressive, crazy, and you just got to feel comfortable on that board at the speeds we are running."  www.reuters.com/article/idUSL3N0LF3WD

SBX coaches, racers and spectators want the course run at full speed (no speed checking/scrubbing) and that is a goal when designing the course.  If the SBX course is too fast/dangerous they make changes.  Compared to Parallel Giant Slalom (PGS) and Parallel Slalom (PS), SBX turns are huge with traverses and banks designed to assist with speed control.  The banks can be used to slow down (or speed up) on and allow racers to pass from above or below.  If SBX racers pivot/skid in (or approaching) a turn or before a jump/roller it can cause a crash/pile-up.  As previously stated, in SBX speed checking like that is discouraged and it's actually dangerous.

In 2018 on this forum, I advocated for using drift/skid/pivot/redirect turns as a winning strategy for tight/steep turns in PGS, PS and ski racing - in opposition to forum member's convictions that the racer who carves all the time always wins.  I got trashed for posting that – some of the naysayers even denied drift/skid/pivot/redirect turns were being used and one person said I would ruin my reputation if I did not recant my belief in the validity of drift/skid/pivot/redirect turns.  Even at that time, it should have been obvious I was right.  However, that shows how difficult it can be to change group think especially when you recognize things others don't.  So, I'm not willing to waste my time like that or go through that crap again.

nicholaswmin, you should be studying SBX racers with a focus on (and analyze) what the winners are doing and how they are doing it.  I suggest keeping your questions specific to SBX racing and ask them in a new SBX racing topic/thread.

Edited March 16 by noschoolrider

[nicholaswmin]

Quote

I suggest keeping your questions specific to SBX racing and ask them in a new SBX racing topic/thread.

Most days of early training for SBX doesn't consist of track training, especially at the beginning. It seems to consist of a mixture of different riding styles on steep and cruddy groomers. Some groomers they may want you to descend carving a narrower corridor and at other times using the full width of the run.

They don't want you to know how to run an SBX course in particular, there's a focus on becoming an all-around carver I suppose.

Most track turns are banked so you don't need to carve them, you stay flat, yet they still insist on that style of training. I'm not the one to challenge it.

"They" is the 2 coaches I've come across, my previous and my next one. A 3rd one I was talking to was following a completely different direction but that's out of the scope of this topic.

Quote

If SBX racers pivot/skid in (or approaching) a turn or before a jump/roller it can cause a crash/pile-up

That's for sure. But again the early training of SBX doesn't have much to do with track training.

What we discussed briefly with my previous coach was early-edge changes and down-unweighting. Again, that's not for track training. It's for everyday training. An early-edge change is not something you would use in a track. 

It was comp. time back then and we couldn't expand on it, then I was busy with park training so I was left with gaps on carving steeps on groomers. 

That's the reason I pushed back a little on the skivot. The narrower corridor they want you to carve doesn't have gates.

I was more interested in the rest of the sequence a slalom racer takes and how it compares to a more relaxed and freecarve-oriented sequence using the full-width of the run. 

 

 

Edited March 16 by nicholaswmin

[noschoolrider]

2 hours ago, nicholaswmin said:

Most track turns are banked so you don't need to carve them, you stay flat, yet they still insist on that style of training. I'm not the one to challenge it.

 

[nicholaswmin]

1 hour ago, noschoolrider said:

 

This is a FIS World Cup/Olympic level track. I train for the lowest FIS level. FIS with no qualifier is the entry-level FIS race.

At the lower FIS level there are banks you can ride almost completely flat. At others you need to set more edge. They are narrower and smaller tracks. What you're looking at in the picture is a behemoth of a track. I'd guess an 80% chance of landing in the hospital if I went all gas on this one.

There's FIS-level tracks, then FIS EC (EuropaCup) and then the biggest ones are the FIS World Cup/Olympics. Anything above FIS you need to be invited by gathering points in the lowest FIS.

You definitely carve around  an SBX track, don't get me wrong. 

You certainly don't set as much edge as you indicated in the first posts of this thread, yet some training includes turns on steeps with a lot of edge. 
 

Quote

 

But again the early training of SBX doesn't have much to do with track training.

 

 

 

This is important. This question does not have much to do with SBX track riding.

Jacobellis is a legendary racer and she has an even more legendary video in the 2006 Turin Winter Olympics, where she lost the gold medal because she decided to throw a simple and unnecessary method grab to show off, on the last jump, that she didn't land. She was leading by a massive 9 seconds difference as well. 

 

She managed to redeem herself couple years ago, got the gold with Baumgartner in Beijing. 

Btw strangely enough, the 2006 Olympic track looks far smaller than the recent ones. 

Edited March 16 by nicholaswmin

[noschoolrider]

47 minutes ago, nicholaswmin said:

You certainly don't set as much edge as you indicated in the first posts of this thread, yet some training includes turns on steeps with a lot of edge.

I did not mention setting the edge until my sixth post in this thread, which was after you made the post I have quoted below.  My response was to that post and your original question of "How can you alter the turn-radius of a carved turn?".  Good luck in your quest.

On 3/14/2024 at 10:16 AM, nicholaswmin said:

I do SBX coaching and most of my training was descending down steep groomers, often icy or moguled, as fast yet as smooth as possible with zero skidding. There is an explicit focus on avoiding skidded speed checks and carving all the way down. The way you control your speed focuses more on pressure management and turn trajectory/shape. That "pick-up-speed/dump-it/pick-up-speed/dump-it" cycle doesn't fly there. Even carving uphill is considered a bit "mehh".

[nicholaswmin]

Quote

I did not mention setting the edge until my sixth post in this thread, which was after you made the post I have quoted below. 

But that answer you gave me was correct.

Quote

You certainly don't set as much edge

..in an SBX track. I'm emphasising that my questions are not related to SBX track riding so we don't veer off the topic, not criticising your answer. 

This:

Quote

 

Also, get on a high edge angle immediately 

 

 

 

This early high edge angle is something I have gaps in and a step to the right direction to carving shorter radius turns. 

It's this that's still unclear to me.

On 3/14/2024 at 8:01 PM, noschoolrider said:

and apply pressure on that high edge angle sooner (at the top of the turn). 

The conversation continued afterwards and Corey gave me an answer here but i still had more questions here.

 

 

Edited March 17 by nicholaswmin

[Neil Gendzwill]

You seem more interested in arguing than learning. 

[noschoolrider]

14 hours ago, nicholaswmin said:

get on a high edge angle immediately

"It's this that's still unclear to me and"

apply pressure on that high edge angle sooner (at the top of the turn)

Watch the video below all the way to the end (the last frame):

And...

And...

Edited March 17 by noschoolrider
added 2 more videos

[Jack M]

I think it's time to go ride and try this stuff before overthinking it any more.  Good luck!

[nicholaswmin]

On 3/17/2024 at 7:56 AM, noschoolrider said:

 

THANKS. Now that's it. Finally I get it. Clear.

Now I have a sequence, the movements and timings. 

Down-unweighting allows me to rapidly change my edge, while keeping a balanced and low position and: 

affords me the range-of-movement in my lower body to extend in the turn (the application of pressure). 

Before that extension I'm also cranking a high edge-angle.

The sequence I've seen in the videos is enough for me. That's more than enough, thanks again Don.

I'll still ask my follow up questions but I can certainly figure them out on my own, most probably on the slopes. If this is tiring you out, I've gotten enough material to work with.

---

Understanding how this extension helps and what is it's exact purpose would be the icing on the cake.

What I got from the last 2 videos is it provides 2 benefits:

1. Early pressure (still a bit unclear how early pressure is affecting the board).
2. Ability to maintain higher edge angles throughout the turn

1) "Early" pressure is the rider pushing down on a tilted board to start the turn

Right after I switch edges, I crank a high-edge angle but there's no turn force (outside pressure) generated by the turn yet to bend the board and lock it into the turn arc. I have a high-edge angle but no pressure, therefore no turn takes place.

So that extension applies the missing pressure on the board and bends it into the arc required for a tight carve, which starts the turn. I immediately enter the fall line, the outside turn forces build up and maintain that board bend so the turn completes.

In short, by extending I am providing the initial missing pressure on the board to start the carved turn early. The turn forces then take over and provide the remainder.

Is this correct? Is that the purpose of early pressure?

"Early pressure" meaning before the fall line and the turn forces that would occur from the turn itself?

Alternative explanation:

2:24 on the second video states:

Quote

...and counters to boost outside pressure

So a different explanation is that my extension's sole purpose is to provide an additional boost to the outside turn forces to bend the board more and carve tighter. The outside turn forces alone are not enough to bend into such a tight turn.

My extension simply provides additional force to the existing turn forces and it has nothing to do with adding initial missing pressure as I muse above. I don't see how this new speculation I'm making could be called "early" so it might be just an additional benefit but certainly not "early pressure".

2) The extension allows maintaining high edge angles 

11:40 of the 3rd video states the following:

Quote

That extension is equalising the turn pressure pulling you out of the turn. This equalisation allows you to angulate/incline to the inside of the turn without falling.

I know that higher angulations (and/or inclinations) allow the maintenance of higher edge angles across the turn.

So the extension's additional purpose is to allow me to maintain higher edge angles through the turn.

 

Edge chattering on new turn technique

In my current up-unweighted turns I'm dealing with the maximum of turn forces at the bottom of my turns. I'm flexing down to absorb those forces and avoid edge chattering.

In this new way we're discussing, there are high turn forces at the apex instead (as well?) of the bottom. But here I am extended. 

Wouldn't my edge chatter? I'm trained to think that (high turn pressure = flex down to absorb).

This seems to be kind of answered in an older post you made in another thread:

Quote

If you get early edge engagement first and then apply the appropriate amount of pressure (also early in the turn) then you can take a higher/tighter line and you will be less likely to have too much pressure in second half of the turn, which can result in chatter

I suppose I'll have to figure out in practice, the timing and power of that extension in a way that achieves a balance between achieving the goals of the extension without overloading the edge. 

I would still flex down at the bottom-half of the turn to absorb. The pressure at the bottom half would be lower with the new technique but still needs to be absorbed/managed. 

----

 

 

Quote

I think it's time to go ride and try this stuff before overthinking it any more.  Good luck!

No snow in the middle of the Mediterranean. Visualising helps me. Why are we eager to shut this down and how is our discussion bothering anyone? Yes I ask a lot of questions but If someone finds this topic irritating can't they just not click it or unfollow? Peace  

Indeed you're right. I am ready to zip it 

 

[Jack M]

28 minutes ago, nicholaswmin said:

Why are we eager to shut this down and how is our discussion bothering anyone? Yes I ask a lot of questions but If someone finds this topic irritating can't they just not click it or unfollow?

Not trying to shut it down and I'm not irritated, it just feels like we're talking in circles and beating some dead horses.  Of course you're welcome and encouraged to keep asking questions.

[nicholaswmin]

34 minutes ago, Jack M said:

Of course you're welcome and encouraged to keep asking questions.

Merci Beaucoup Mr Jack and thanks for keeping these forums alive.

 

Quote

 

we're talking in circles and beating some dead horses..

 

 

 

We've just exited the roundabout at the last minute and managed to save those horses. Well, might have lost one but thats alright. All good. 

Edited March 17 by nicholaswmin

[noschoolrider]

On 3/17/2024 at 8:52 AM, nicholaswmin said:

The sequence I've seen in the videos is enough for me. That's more than enough, thanks again Don.

You're welcome.

This is not tiring me out. However, I do have a life, don't spend much time on this website and I'm routinely on snow until the end of May.

You have provided good responses to my guided discovery method and you made considerable effort to understand the information presented.

So, I'll give you a little bit more...

First consider 3 different snow surfaces:
Ice (smooth and shiny - not tilled or corduroy)
Carvable hardpack
Soft (your edge will sink in 3-4 inches when pressured)

For each type of snow surface above, consider the following:
Is it possible to apply too much pressure?
Is it possible to apply pressure too soon?
What happens if there is not enough edge angle?
What happens if there is too much edge angle?

On 3/17/2024 at 8:52 AM, nicholaswmin said:

1) "Early" pressure is the rider pushing down on a tilted board to start the turn

I have a high-edge angle but no pressure, therefore no turn takes place.

Unless the snowboard is in the moment of being unweighted there's some amount of pressure even while absorbing.

Your unabsorbed body weight provides substantial pressure.
A gentle/slow extension can be used to maintain or increase pressure.
A push provides a lot of pressure (depends upon how hard/fast you push/extend).

If the board is on an edge it will turn.  Less pressure/tilt/bend makes a bigger turn and/or it will develop at a slower rate.

There's a lot more to this, but you have more than enough to work on - it might take years to accomplish a level of proficiency.

Homework assignment: Identify three ways (using body movements) to down-unweight.

The video below explains "and counters to boost outside pressure".

Edited March 20 by noschoolrider

[Odd Job]

Cool. I've been doing some variation of this more often this season. Especially when free-riding. Just before the turn ends my core/body is countered as the turn progresses/ends. I guess I'm doing more of a "ski into counter". Allows me great access to a stivot or jump turns on some terrain riding a 181 Tanker in tight tree/bumps/narrow steeps carving. I noticed no matter what the edge pressure just before the edge change spikes and the board is more likely to have the aft pressure as well.

Gonna watch the video without skipping now....

Edited March 21 by Odd Job

[nicholaswmin]

On 3/20/2024 at 4:57 AM, noschoolrider said:

You have provided good responses to my guided discovery method and you made considerable effort to understand the information presented.

So, I'll give you a little bit more...

Aham, I'll think about all the points given, watch the video and get back with a reply

---

Before I go, I'll restate my new understanding:

The primary benefit of the down-unweighting and the afforded extension is the ability to create early high edge angles.

This alone can be sufficient to also create the necessary early pressure hence drive the turn, because of momentum (the turn/outside forces).

The ability to also actively push on the board during that extension is of secondary benefit. It can aid by adding more "artificial/rider" pressure but it's not a required ingredient for early pressure.

I think I've overestimated the significance of the active push on the board by the rider and underestimated the significance of the early edge angle.

---

I'll explain my train of thought:

There is a need for higher edge angles throughout the turn but also a high edge angle sooner. So there isn't just "early pressure". There is also "early edge angle". We've established that very early in this thread but I'm only now getting it's importance. Early edge angle is creating early pressure.

At turn initiation I am not yet angulated/inclined.

A down-unweighted has me flexed low after the edge change. Being in a low position immediately after the edge change gives me the chance to start extending, angulate/incline and quickly create a higher edge angle, sooner.

In contrast, an up-unweighted/cross-over has me extended after the edge-change. By the time it takes to flex low again in order to crank a higher angle, it is too late. 

I may have already established this in the previous post..

Quote

2) The extension allows maintaining high edge angles 

.. but I think I've underestimated it.

In my mind it was something like "oh yes sure ill just (magically?) max out board angle then extend. Then the extension just allows me to maintain that angle via some way i'll understand better later. At least I can finally push on the board and bend it tighter."

That's false. The creation of an "early board angle" is a consequence of being able to extend. It doesn't happen much before that extension begins. It's also the most important bit.

Then your statements here:

Quote

Unless the snowboard is in the moment of being unweighted there's some amount of pressure even while absorbing

and here:

Quote

 

If the board is on an edge it will turn

...

Less pressure/tilt/bend makes a bigger turn and/or it will develop at a slower rate.

 

 

 

indicate that the higher edge angle is enough to make the board turn, which by itself also generates outside pressure. So early edge angle = early pressure automatically. Early pressure can also be maximised from the rider pushing on the board, but mostly it comes automatically because the board has been put on a high edge earlier in the turn.

The extension gives the ability to create early pressure by 2 components that work in tandem rather than separate steps. The ability to create early edge angle sooner (outside pressure) in conjunction with the ability to physically push on the board (rider pressure). 

They are not separate steps.

I don't crank a high edge angle and then push down. They happen simultaneously.

Quote

 

A gentle/slow extension can be used to maintain or increase pressure.

 

 

 

But theoretically, if I have enough speed, I can create enough edge angle with my extension and skip actively pushing the board, yet still turn in a tight turn. If I just extend enough to keep the edge in contact with the snow, the early pressure will still build up. 

Because without a high edge angle no tight turn takes place, regardless of the amount of rider pressure I apply to it. The opposite is possible though. With a high edge angle yet without rider pressure, I can still produce early pressure and execute a tighter turn.

I need to be paying more attention to early angles, not adding early pressure by an intentional leg push. Early pressure is going to come from the early angles.

So first order of business should be to just focus on edge-change, extend, angulate/inclinate(or counter) and create early high edge angles.

Adding additional pressure by a leg push is something that can be considered later on. Not discounting it, it's part of the equation; just not the required factor.

Does this conceptualisation show a progress in my understanding? 

---

I'm using some terms I've whipped up to clarify a distiction:

• outside pressure = pressure generated by the turn itself, which the rider has to manage in some way.
• rider/adding pressure = pressure generate by the rider himself, by his own deliberate leg push on the board with the intention of affecting it's flex/bend.

I will think about the points you gave me and get back to this thread soon