Altering the turn radius of a carved turn on steep terrain

[BlueB]

4 hours ago, nicholaswmin said:

I've been impressed and confused - these are cross-under turns. The unweighting is done using the rebound of the board?

They aren't even S-turns. I change edge across the fall-line. This guy doesn't even go across the fall-line...

 

Looks like cross-through to me. Some get closer to cross-over, some to cross-under, as the terrain and tempo dictates. And yes, board rebound should be used in high level riding. 

Your last sentence, I don't quite understand... Actually more like, last paragraph. 

[nicholaswmin]

2 minutes ago, BlueB said:

Looks like cross-through to me. Some get closer to cross-over, some to cross-under, as the terrain and tempo dictates. And yes, board rebound should be used in high level riding. 

Your last sentence, I don't quite understand... Actually more like, last paragraph. 

The early edge-change that was recommended earlier, as I understand it, means changing your edge as you're travelling across the fall line instead of while you're going down the fall line. Unless I'm misunderstanding this.

The person in the video doesn't look like he travels across the fall line at all.

[BlueB]

3 minutes ago, nicholaswmin said:

The early edge-change that was recommended earlier, as I understand it, means changing your edge as you're travelling across the fall line instead of while you're going down the fall line. Unless I'm misunderstanding this.

The person in the video doesn't look like he travels across the fall line at all.

I didn't see a single turn where the edge was changed down the fall line. 

With symetrical turns, it is impossible to not travel across the fall line, when making a turn. Of course, the board can come to perpendicular to fall line, or to stay short of that, or even travel a bit uphill, but it would always cross the fall line. For clarity, let's exclude the kind of line where your general direction of travel is diagonal to the slope. 

[nicholaswmin]

1 hour ago, BlueB said:

I didn't see a single turn where the edge was changed down the fall line. 

With symetrical turns, it is impossible to not travel across the fall line, when making a turn. Of course, the board can come to perpendicular to fall line, or to stay short of that, or even travel a bit uphill, but it would always cross the fall line. For clarity, let's exclude the kind of line where your general direction of travel is diagonal to the slope. 

The style in the previous video looks very similar to this: 

 

He's pressuring the board while it travels down the fall line (yes I was wrong about the edge change, which happens earlier while travelling across fall line).

Is that a correct observation?

Edited March 14 by nicholaswmin

[Jack M]

9 hours ago, nicholaswmin said:

I've been impressed and confused - these are cross-under turns. The unweighting is done using the rebound of the board?

They aren't even S-turns. I change edge across the fall-line. This guy doesn't even go across the fall-line...

 

I would say they're cross-through.  The COM rises up a bit and then the board crosses under it.  The unweighting is done using the rebound of the board and allowing the knees to receive that motion.  Pure cross-under is usually done in pretty rapid slalom turns. 

He's not coming all the way across the fall line because he doesn't have to.  It's a pretty mellow slope and he's going for speed.

Edited March 14 by Jack M
mistakes were made

[nicholaswmin]

Ok, this is getting somewhere.

 

So my current problem is that I have too much pressure building-up on it's own by doing my up-unweighted, cross-over turns. The pressure build-up happens in the bottom-half of the turn. It's an unavoidable result of my momentum. I'm forced to absorb it.

 

The solution is the following:

• Down-unweighting and cross through, early.
• Crank some edge angle
• Extend/Pressure that edge myself, by a lower-body extension.

The down-unweighting puts me low hence more balanced but most importantly it affords me the range of movement to extend and create pressure on the new edge.

So instead of riding the turn like a passenger and the pressure building up on it's own, I simply pressure the edge myself earlier.

Am I on the right track?

 

Edited March 14 by nicholaswmin

[ShortcutToMoncton]

1 hour ago, Jack M said:

And, just want to make sure you know who "this guy" is...?  He's kind of a big deal.

Out of curiosity, who is it?

[dhamann]

ted talk snowboarding is exhausting! 

#ocean2

 

[Jack M]

31 minutes ago, ShortcutToMoncton said:

Out of curiosity, who is it?

Actually nevermind, I don't know.  I saw the title of the video and thought it was Jasey Jay Anderson.  Then I remembered he's goofy.

[Rob Stevens]

From what I see, a dual racer on a steep pitch will…

usually up unweight, or at least rise up out of the deeply angulated end position, enough to allow room for the rebounding / releasing board to go from beside them to under themselves. 

Using a rotary or counter move (they have to know both as the release from the previous turn and terrain can be inconsistent) they will engage a skid - pivot to adjust speed and line with the goal of getting the right entry speed for the next turn with the most direct line possible. 

Between this point at about a third the way and half way through, they are building edge angle and pressure to their maximum, right around the position of the gate. 

That max pressure does stay on past the gate to redirect in the new direction and the rider will decrease edge and pressure to begin again. 

So this is definitely different than strictly making a purely carved turns very deliberate and fast switch well above the fall line and generating a lot of edge angle very early… it’s too much of a “round trip” so too slow. The “skivot” keeps the line direct and replaces the roundness tactics with sliding for a moment to adjust speed. 

You’d also talk about strength… there is no substitute for it, balance and nerve. 

Lastly, just watch good FIS racing. All of the above is clearly shown. 
 

Edited March 14 by Rob Stevens

[kibber]

1 hour ago, nicholaswmin said:

Ok, this is getting somewhere.

 

So my current problem is that I have too much pressure building-up on it's own by doing my up-unweighted, cross-over turns. The pressure build-up happens in the bottom-half of the turn. It's an unavoidable result of my momentum. I'm forced to absorb it.

 

The solution is the following:

• Down-unweighting and cross through, early.
• Crank some edge angle
• Extend/Pressure that edge myself, by a lower-body extension.

The down-unweighting puts me low hence more balanced but most importantly it affords me the range of movement to extend and create pressure on the new edge.

So instead of riding the turn like a passenger and the pressure building up on it's own, I simply pressure the edge myself earlier.

Am I on the right track?

 

yes, I think so (imo); hence some amount (discreet, some, pronounced) of “drift” to pressure sooner, begin direction change sooner, control speed sooner.

[TimW]

1 hour ago, nicholaswmin said:

Ok, this is getting somewhere.

 

So my current problem is that I have too much pressure building-up on it's own by doing my up-unweighted, cross-over turns. The pressure build-up happens in the bottom-half of the turn. It's an unavoidable result of my momentum. I'm forced to absorb it.

 

The solution is the following:

• Down-unweighting and cross through, early.
• Crank some edge angle
• Extend/Pressure that edge myself, by a lower-body extension.

The down-unweighting puts me low hence more balanced but most importantly it affords me the range of movement to extend and create pressure on the new edge.

So instead of riding the turn like a passenger and the pressure building up on it's own, I simply pressure the edge myself earlier.

Am I on the right track?

 

You are on the right track. The key to freecarving steeper terrain is to get the board carving in a tight turn directly after initation. For this you need to angulate your board, and apply pressure directly in the beginning of the turn. 

Once the board turns, you have the centripetal provides you the pressure. 

If you don't actively pressure the board early in the turn, pressure builds slowly, the first part of the turn becomes longer and you gain more speed. Tightening the first part of your turn helps to control the speed. 

 

 

[philw]

18 hours ago, nicholaswmin said:

How can you alter the turn-radius of a carved turn?

And can you do that as a tactic to carve steeps? By carving short-radius turns?

 

Me, a non-racer, I think....

(1) by varying how much you angulate. Note that some styles, for example fully laid out turns, don't allow as much variation in angulation as I get by riding more "stacked" over my edges. I do the opposite of those laid out guys, I reduce how much centripetal force I need so I can carve tighter circles at slower speeds, if I want.

(2) It depends what you mean. To me, slopes are either mellow enough to carve without worrying much about speed, or I have to dump speed somehow. If your definition of "carved turn" means pencil line in the snow, you're going to accelerate because you're not dumping the kinetic energy you're gaining. So you're going to have to skid sooner or later.

In very steep resort conditions I'll carve very, very short turns, more like a skier doing the same thing than a snowboarder carving circles. That's more like linked aggressive (and I hope smooth!) hockey stops than a carved circle.

I think a definition of a carved turn which precludes any skidding at all is idealized and mostly unhelpful. The action's the same, skidding is entirely allowed, it's not binary.
 

I'm not sure "unweighting" is a helpful concept. I don't "unweight" as far as I know; I can transition edges fully loaded, on demand, and there's no up-down bouncing. Some boards have aggressive camber and provide a satisfying "rebound" which gets you from edge to edge, but other boards don't and still work.
 

Edited March 14 by philw
Clarify skidding issue

[nicholaswmin]

1 hour ago, philw said:

Me, a non-racer, I think....

I think a definition of a carved turn which precludes any skidding at all is idealized and mostly unhelpful. The action's the same, skidding is entirely allowed, it's not binary.

This is for race training, I was a bit late in tagging the topic as such.

I do SBX coaching and most of my training was descending down steep groomers, often icy or moguled, as fast yet as smooth as possible with zero skidding. There is an explicit focus on avoiding skidded speed checks and carving all the way down. The way you control your speed focuses more on pressure management and turn trajectory/shape. That "pick-up-speed/dump-it/pick-up-speed/dump-it" cycle doesn't fly there. Even carving uphill is considered a bit "mehh".

The turns you describe sound like short radius edged turns (page 5). They arent carved turns but not skidded either. Thats a good way to descend steeps but in race training theres an emphasis on finetuning your carving so you dont use those.

I am no longer in the best of terms with my previous coach and my new coach will see me in December, so I'm filling a bit of my gaps here.

Quote

 provide a satisfying "rebound" which gets you from edge to edge

That is an unweighting as far as i understand, it's just using the board rebound to unweight. 

There has to be some up and down, you probably do it quickly with your lower body and dont notice it, its a prerequisite for carving anything more than a green. 

 

 

Edited March 14 by nicholaswmin

[noschoolrider]

On 3/13/2024 at 9:53 PM, nicholaswmin said:

Possibly! My butler is asking for a raise.

Dump the butler and get a maid with benefits.

On 3/13/2024 at 8:32 PM, nicholaswmin said:

If the cross-over is not the best choice, which is it the best and why?

I'm going to try and simplify this (keep in mind there are many variables and ways to blend/combine these):  Consider unweighing as vertical movements (up or down) that reduce/release pressure.  Consider cross-under, cross-over and cross-trough as lateral/diagonal movements for the initiation of a turn or the transition from one turn to another. 

Cross-under is typically used for quick short radius turns - it can be done using down-unweighting or up-unweighting but it's usually associated with down-unweighting.

Cross-over is typically used for longer radius turns - it can be done using up-unweighting or down-unweighting but it's usually associated with up-unweighting.

Cross-through is a blend of cross-over and cross-under - as your center-of-mass moves across you also move your board/feet underneath your center-of-mass.  As Jack mentioned, you need the vertical space to do this - if your center-of-mass is low (below your knees) then you need to bring it up enough to allow the cross-through.  Ski coaches often say cross-through is done without vertical movement (just across/lateral/diagonal) but that is not always possible or desirable.  Cross-through is more physically demanding (requires more strength and endurance) than cross-over and cross-under.

In the video that Odd Job posted, the rider is on a moderate slope (not steep by my definition) and he makes no attempt to slow down - in some turns he actually extends while edging, which can be used to maintain speed or even increase speed and/or increase rebound.  The takeaways from that video for carving on the steeps are the quick edge changes with high edge angles (tilt of the board), excellent balance via angulation and pressure control, which allows the rider to slice through the not so smooth surface.

On 3/13/2024 at 3:23 PM, nicholaswmin said:

How can you alter the turn-radius of a carved turn?

For tighter turns: Bend the board more - methods have already been explained but snowboard racers will also drive a turn with additional pressure from the back leg knee and/or use rotation (not enough to skid - think of steering/driving the turn).  Also, get on a high edge angle immediately (flip the board to the edge with your feet) and apply pressure on that high edge angle sooner (at the top of the turn). 

For bigger turns on a tight sidecut/slalom board: Feather the edge, reduce edge angle, reduce pressure - reduce the board bend.

Edited April 4 by noschoolrider
grammer

[nicholaswmin]

On 3/14/2024 at 8:01 PM, noschoolrider said:

Dump the butler and get a maid with benefits.

Now that is some serious, grade A, level 4 coachin right here. 

On 3/14/2024 at 8:01 PM, noschoolrider said:

Consider unweighing as vertical movements (up or down) that reduce/release pressure.  Consider cross-under, cross-over and cross-trough as lateral/diagonal movements for the initiation of a turn or the transition from one turn to another. 

This distinction is crystal clear now. Got it.

 

On 3/14/2024 at 8:01 PM, noschoolrider said:

apply pressure on that high edge angle sooner (at the top of the turn). 

 

This is what I need final confirmation on. The application of pressure in this scenario is done by extending my legs as soon as i'm on that new edge, cranked high, correct? 

[Rob Stevens]

5 hours ago, nicholaswmin said:

This is what I need final confirmation on. The application of pressure in this scenario is done by extending my legs as soon as i'm on that new edge, cranked high, correct? 

No. 

Firstly, you won’t be at maximum edge angle as soon as you are on the new edge. You’d be jamming it and fall over. you have to build edge angle once you are on the new edge. It happens pretty fast, but don’t try and do it all at once. 
 

You’ll also be compressing and angulating into your max edge angle. As your hip drops, you’re “getting smaller”.

Once you’ve passed the gate and are going across the hill, you’ll rise up, which flattens the edge. 
 

Extending while increasing edge angle is an EC thing done while really inclining.  
 

 

[nicholaswmin]

12 minutes ago, Rob Stevens said:

You’ll also be compressing and angulating into your max edge angle

Confused again.

I am compressed(flexed) low when I change edge. Its a down-unweighting after all. So how can be compressing even more in a subsequent part of the turn? 

When do I extend?

Note: I know vertical movements as flexion/extension. I assume compression means flexion, getting low.

[Board Doctor]

5 hours ago, nicholaswmin said:

Now that is some serious, grade A, level 4, Life Coaching right here. Alfred, you're fired!
These carving tips are gonna get me Mrs Schiffrin cooking me breakfast, so I don't need you no more!

This distinction is crystal clear now. Got it.

 

This is what I need final confirmation on. The application of pressure in this scenario is done by extending my legs as soon as i'm on that new edge, cranked high, correct? 

If we’re talking really steep terrain and you’re trying to limit your speed, that’s not how I do it.   I heavily weight the nose and get that bending into the turn first.  If you’re on a directional all mountain/freeride board with some rocker in the nose it’s super easy.  Once that happens I hammer the rear knee forward and put pressure on my rear binding through the arch of the foot. This decambers the board to follow the nose before you develop much pressure in the turn.  As you naturally build pressure, you just ride it through (with increasing edge angle), then towards the end of the turn the board will want to release that stored energy, but I try to hold it decambered a bit longer, maybe even get onto the tail, and try to keep the radius tight.

If I’ve got the terminology right, I’m doing cross though turns… keeping my COM fairly tight to the board around the transition so that it’s quick.  I have more extension at the apex as the board takes a longer path than my body.

These are some of the most fun turns for me.

[Board Doctor]

22 minutes ago, nicholaswmin said:

Confused again.

I am compressed(flexed) low when I change edge. Its a down-unweighting after all. So how can be compressing even more in a subsequent part of the turn? 

When do I extend?

Note: I know vertical movements as flexion/extension. I assume compression means flexion, getting low.

You can’t be fully compressed when you’re moving your board and legs under your body at the transition.  You extend as the board goes out and around the apex.

 

I’ll also add that I feel most vulnerable at the transition when I’m unweighted and I haven’t set the edge.  It’s best to have some room for additional flexion to ‘absorb’ uneven terrain.  (I failed to do this on the weekend and still feel sore!).
 

 

Edited March 15 by Board Doctor

[Rob Stevens]

16 minutes ago, nicholaswmin said:

Confused again.

I am compressed(flexed) low when I change edge. Its a down-unweighting after all. So how can be compressing even more in a subsequent part of the turn? 

When do I extend?

Note: I know vertical movements as flexion/extension. I assume compression means flexion, getting low.

If you’re bottomed out when you change edges, you’re too low. 

Make some room for your board to pass under you by coming up a bit, switch edges, pivot to aim and adjust speed, then move towards the board as you engage the carve and increase the edge to the gate and just after. 
 

Rise up a bit to make room for your lower body, switch edges and do it again. 
 

It won’t work for every turn, but if you’re in a good rhythm, that pattern will work in gates on a steeper pitch. 

[Rob Stevens]

2 minutes ago, Board Doctor said:

You can’t be fully compressed when you’re moving your board and legs under your body at the transition.  You extend as the board goes out and around the apex.
 

 

You might extend a bit more as you go “out” while doing the skivot, but through the apex you’ll be at your most angulated and “lowest”, so not extending. 
 

Again, I’d say that extending to the apex is either a freecarve / EC move, or you’re making a recovery “shape” if that’s happening in a race course. 

[nicholaswmin]

24 minutes ago, Board Doctor said:

If we’re talking really steep terrain and you’re trying to limit your speed, that’s not how I do it.  

Let's try and keep discussions a bit focused around racing technique. I've tagged it as such although I do understand the title might confuse.

 

14 minutes ago, Rob Stevens said:

or you’re making a recovery “shape” if that’s happening in a race course. 

Hmm, that's a bit of conflicting advice relative to the previous posts from @noschoolrider and his comments in this thread: 

 

Edited March 15 by nicholaswmin

[Rob Stevens]

1 minute ago, nicholaswmin said:

Hmm, that's a bit of conflicting advice.

I’ll say it again, but differently. 

You wouldn’t extend to the apex unless you were ****ing up and needed to do what you had to do to stay on your feet. 

It’s not ideal, but better than falling over. 

[nicholaswmin]

2 minutes ago, Rob Stevens said:

I’ll say it again, but differently. 

You wouldn’t extend to the apex unless you were ****ing up and needed to do what you had to do to stay on your feet. 

It’s not ideal, but better than falling over. 

Fair enough. I'll get the contrasting advice I got and write down a proper reply in a bit. Some of it comes from those "Midweighting" videos. I'd rather think about this a bit more and soak in the info rather than getting you dizzy with my misunderstandings.