Altering the turn radius of a carved turn on steep terrain

[noschoolrider]

22 hours ago, Odd Job said:

Cool. I've been doing some variation of this more often this season. Especially when free-riding. Just before the turn ends my core/body is countered as the turn progresses/ends. I guess I'm doing more of a "ski into counter". Allows me great asses to a stivot or jump turns on some terrain riding a 181 Tanker in tight tree/bumps/narrow steeps carving. I noticed no matter what the edge pressure just before the edge change spikes and the board is more likely to have the aft pressure as well.

Gonna watch the video without skipping now....

It's always nice to see that people appreciate what's being posted.  I was wondering if anyone besides the OP is interested in the information I've been providing.

17 hours ago, nicholaswmin said:

if I have enough speed, I can create enough edge angle with my extension and skip actively pushing the board, yet still turn in a tight turn.

If you have flexed to start a turn then you'll need to extend to be able to flex again.  When and how fast/much you need to extend depends upon several variables such as steepness, current speed, surface conditions, the intended turn shape, your intended exit speed and achieving/regulating the correct amount of pressure throughout the turn based upon your desired outcome.

Ideally, an expert snowboarder will use their feet, ankles and knees to create/adjust edge angle and also use angulation to increase/maintain edge angle and balance.  If you are waiting for angulation, extension or larger body parts to create the edge angle then you will not achieve early edge angle.

[noschoolrider]

17 hours ago, nicholaswmin said:

Because without a high edge angle no tight turn takes place, regardless of the amount of rider pressure I apply to it.

If the snowboard has any sidecut it will turn even with very low edge angle and light/minimum pressure - you can just ride the sidecut and it will turn.

17 hours ago, nicholaswmin said:

With a high edge angle yet without rider pressure, I can still produce early pressure and execute a tighter turn.

Unless the board is unweighted there is rider pressure even when absorbing (this was previously mentioned).

High edge angle will execute a tighter turn than lower edge angle and more pressure will make the turn even tighter, but you don't want too much pressure.

Also, too high of an edge angle puts you on the board's sidewall instead of on the effective edge.

Edited March 21 by noschoolrider

[noschoolrider]

17 hours ago, nicholaswmin said:

outside pressure = pressure generated by the turn itself, which the rider has to manage in some way.

In the skiing videos, where the coach refers to outside pressure he is talking about the pressure on the outside ski (the ski on the outside of the turn).

17 hours ago, nicholaswmin said:

Does this conceptualisation show a progress in my understanding?

Some of it, yes. Some of it, not so much.  And, at times you seem to contradict your own understandings.

Try not to overthink this.  It might be helpful to take a break from thinking about this for a few days.  Then come back to it refreshed, and carefully reread my posts (and others you found helpful) and watch the videos with a focus on cause-and-effect.  Also, before writing down a question, try asking yourself what would happen if the opposite (or a different) action was done (cause-and-effect).

[nicholaswmin]

Quote

Unless the board is unweighted there is rider pressure even when absorbing (this was previously mentioned).

Yes, this was understood.

When I say "rider pressure" I mean an intentional extension by my legs with the sole purpose of exerting additional pressure. Similar to the movement I would make if I was squatting on a scale and I wanted that scale to momentarily register a higher weight than I am. 

I suppose I could have gone further and say you can have positive rider pressure and negative rider pressure (the intentional flexion to absorb an outside pressure). In both cases though it involves a flexion or extension with the intention of altering the pressure on the board.

By "Outside pressure" I refer to the forces that are exerted on the board while turning that are a result of either centrifugal force or my momentum/inertia because of the various variables you mentioned in your previous post. However, it specifically excludes "rider pressure". Maybe "turn pressure" is a better term.

For example, a static rider standing as tall as a pole on a board that is turning = 100% turn pressure. Theres no leg muscle involvement so 0% zero rider pressure.

"pressure" is the overall pressure that is causing the board to bend. If I could freeze a point in time during a turn, I could express it like so:

• board flex = edge angle + pressure
• pressure = turn pressure + rider pressure. 

Then again this are all interconnected so maybe that's me oversimplifying again. I'll drop the overanalysis for now and start a bit fresh.

I did not borrow the term "outside pressure" from the video so no confusion there. I just gave it a confusing name. I'm not the best at establishing terminology at this point

59 minutes ago, noschoolrider said:

It might be helpful to take a break from thinking about this for a few days.  Then come back to it refreshed, and carefully reread my posts (and others you found helpful)

Clear.  Time for a break.

I'm visualising movements and sequences that I could might as well watch in the videos. I'll watch the videos again and pay extra attention to when some movement starts and how it evolves as the turn progresses.

Quote

watch the videos with a focus on cause-and-effect.  Also, before writing down a question, try asking yourself what would happen if the opposite (or a different) action was done (cause-and-effect).

Clear. I have more than enough material and clear instructions. I will do this after the break.

Much appreciated for all this, I could not have expected more. I'll get back to this soon.

 

 

[noschoolrider]

On 3/20/2024 at 7:18 PM, nicholaswmin said:

When I say "rider pressure" I mean an intentional extension by my legs with the sole purpose of exerting additional pressure.

This is referred to as weighting (increasing board pressure against the snow).

On 3/20/2024 at 7:18 PM, nicholaswmin said:

By "Outside pressure" I refer to the forces that are exerted on the board while turning that are a result of either centrifugal force or my momentum/inertia because of the various variables you mentioned in your previous post. However, it specifically excludes "rider pressure". Maybe "turn pressure" is a better term.

This is referred to as forces of the turn or turn forces.

On 3/20/2024 at 7:18 PM, nicholaswmin said:

pressure = turn pressure + rider pressure.

Pressure develops from rider weight (the weight of the rider), turn forces (forces of the turn) and weighting (increasing board pressure against the snow).
 

I’m not trying to be picky, I just thought you might want to know coaches' definitions.  No need to reply to this post.  Have a great weekend.

Edited March 26 by noschoolrider
changed force to forces

[Board Doctor]

On 3/20/2024 at 6:26 PM, noschoolrider said:

I was wondering if anyone besides the OP is interested in the information I've been providing.

I’m VERY interested!  I just don’t race and don’t have the expertise to have anything to add.

But may I ask, how ‘early’ is the early edge angle?

Its been getting icy and I’ve been trying to keep turns tight to control my speed (even just on steeper blues)… but too much, too soon and I feel like it slips because I’m not engaging much of the effective edge.

I’ve been trying to develop this skill, but maybe I should actually just ‘slarve or die’? (Which is generally my default approach).

 

[noschoolrider]

On 3/24/2024 at 10:08 AM, Board Doctor said:

But may I ask, how ‘early’ is the early edge angle?

Its been getting icy and I’ve been trying to keep turns tight to control my speed (even just on steeper blues)… but too much, too soon and I feel like it slips because I’m not engaging much of the effective edge.

First, it might be helpful to identify 3 commonly recognized parts of a turn:

1. The top of the turn.  Sometimes referred to as the high C, initiation or where you establish a platform.

2. The middle of the turn - the fall line or apex (the apex is not always in the fall line; it might be above or below the fall line).

3. The bottom of the turn.  Sometimes referred to as the low C part of the turn.
 

When to edge and how much edge angle to use depend upon several variables such as surface conditions, your ability, how much speed you can accept/control, the intended turn shape and the limits of your equipment.

On ice or extremely hard snow, try to engage the full effective edge as even-footed as possible (instead of starting by digging the nose or pushing the tail).  If it's so icy that you cannot get (or maintain) edge grip then you'll need to accept some skidding and just go with the flow.  You can try to reduce skidding by being light-footed/absorbing and/or being more patient so you can establish a better platform.

Other things to consider:
Am I engaging the edge too early/aggressively for the conditions?
What will happen if I do not edge early?
What will happen if I do not engage enough edge angle?

Edited March 26 by noschoolrider