Plate's effect on board?

[pokkis]

I dont recall does these bumbers touch right away board on XPlate, or after certain force on plate.

Edited January 16, 2019 by pokkis

[daveo]

3 hours ago, Corey said:

You have it correct for those two plates! Now make the plate more flexible and add squishy bumpers inboard and outboard of the pivots for the Apex. Bend the plate, the bumpers push on the board. 

Bottom of plate: (I'm pretty sure this is the Apex X-plate, please correct if not!)

Nice photo 

1 hour ago, David Kirk said:

P.S. - I just looked at the Apex site and it looks like that have made  design change.

No. The photos are misspecified on the Apex site. The 4x4 plate looks like that one in the beautiful photo. The UPM and Allflex versions have identical carbon plates, the 4x4 plate has a shortened plate to fit the hardware and the bumpers are placed outside of the hardware mounts.

[daveo]

55 minutes ago, pokkis said:

I dont recall does these bumbers touch right away board on XPlate, or after certain force on plate.

Depends on the camber of the board. The delrin inside bumpers touched my SG Full Carve 170 but the urethane outside ones did not.

There are two materials of bumpers with same colour on that plate. You can tell if you look closely at the finish.

Edited January 16, 2019 by daveo

[David Kirk]

13 minutes ago, daveo said:

Nice photo 

No. The photos are misspecified on the Apex site. The 4x4 plate looks like that one in the beautiful photo. The UPM and Allflex versions have identical carbon plates, the 4x4 plate has a shortened plate to fit the hardware and the bumpers are placed outside of the hardware mounts.

Cool - If I understand you correctly the UPM Apex plate would look like the nice photo of the underside that was posted....is that right?

dave

[daveo]

Just now, David Kirk said:

Cool - If I understand you correctly the UPM Apex plate would look like the nice photo of the underside that was posted....is that right?

dave

It's my photo that's why I said it was beautiful haha!

But no. That's a 4x4 plate. The UPM and Allflex ones look like the one below, the one you quoted has a round part and a square part. The old UPM plates had a round part also, but this has since been changed to be identical to the Allflex version.

[David Kirk]

3 minutes ago, daveo said:

It's my photo that's why I said it was beautiful haha!

But no. That's a 4x4 plate. The UPM and Allflex ones look like the one below, the one you quoted has a round part and a square part. The old UPM plates had a round part also, but this has since been changed to be identical to the Allflex version.

Cool - thanks.

dave

[Corey]

19 minutes ago, daveo said:

Nice photo 

Send those flames to Google Image Search. 

Neat discussion! It's interesting how Apex and Allflex both have some ability for the plate to decamber the board, but isolate the rider from any motion that decambers the board more than the plate. A convergence of design suggests that's a desirable/useful property. 

I wouldn't buy the Bomber plate again. Neat toy, but the trade-offs outweigh the benefits for most conditions I see. But, I'm keeping it as I already have it and I can't get much $ for it. 

[daveo]

2 minutes ago, Corey said:

Send those flames to Google Image Search.

[David Kirk]

4 minutes ago, Corey said:

Send those flames to Google Image Search. 

Neat discussion! It's interesting how Apex and Allflex both have some ability for the plate to decamber the board, but isolate the rider from any motion that decambers the board more than the plate. A convergence of design suggests that's a desirable/useful property. 

I wouldn't buy the Bomber plate again. Neat toy, but the trade-offs outweigh the benefits for most conditions I see. But, I'm keeping it as I already have it and I can't get much $ for it. 

Well said.

From a simple design standpoint it would seem that the perfect plate would allow the board to track over imperfections in the surface and give the rider some isolation from vibration....while at the same time giving the rider the ability to decamber the board with their feet to change the turn shape or radius. These two demands run contrary to each other to a degree so there needs to be a compromise of some sort.

Based purely on race results it seems that Allflex has the best compromise and I'd love to try it....but buying new boards with the Allflex pattern and then the plate is just out of my budget. But one can dream and conjecture!

dave

[pow4ever]

i feel like a little boy wanting to put sticker on the bike to make it go faster.
The HW is sexy.  Don't know what I am doing with it but just look so cool.

[daveo]

11 minutes ago, David Kirk said:

Based purely on race results it seems that Allflex has the best compromise and I'd love to try it....but buying new boards with the Allflex pattern and then the plate is just out of my budget. But one can dream and conjecture!

I bought my Vistflex second hand and you could find an Oxess with Allflex inserts in the sale section at a reasonable price.

Edited January 16, 2019 by daveo

[David Kirk]

6 minutes ago, daveo said:

I bought my Vistflex second hand and you could find an Oxess with Allflex inserts in the sale section at a reasonable price.

I hear you - I have two relatively new Kesslers that I just love and don't in any way find the performance lacking so adding new gear isn't really needed.....but I earn my living designing stuff and to puzzle of how it all works and how to make it work better always occupies my mind.

[lowrider]

4 hours ago, lonbordin said:

It's interesting... the plate is becoming more like the gecko system...

To me Ghekos serve to induce something into a board that it's design doesn't. Something the design of many different bindings can do as well.

[lowrider]

2 hours ago, David Kirk said:

 

From a simple design standpoint it would seem that the perfect plate would allow the board to track over imperfections in the surface and give the rider some isolation from vibration....( while at the same time giving the rider the ability to decamber the board with their feet to change the turn shape or radius) . These two demands run contrary to each other to a degree so there needs to be a compromise of some sort.

 

dave

What would be wrong with not decambering the board and allow it to track as it's designed to do. My goal is to ride a plate the way Dr. Beckman professes we should ride without a plate. Angulation, balance  both fore and aft and all the other nuances required to ride while experiencing total zen. 

[David Kirk]

38 minutes ago, lowrider said:

What would be wrong with not decambering the board and allow it to track as it's designed to do. My goal is to ride a plate the way Dr. Beckman professes we should ride without a plate. Angulation, balance  both fore and aft and all the other nuances required to ride while experiencing total zen. 

Nothing.

I just like being able to add a level of input and control by using my feet to decamber the board and adjust the radius of the turn.

If others don't like doing that that's totally cool. There's more than one way to ride these things.

 

dave

[Jack M]

15 hours ago, David Kirk said:

Thanks for the reply.

I'm lost....I don't see how the rider can in any way, regardless of how stiff or soft the plate might be, decamber the board if there is a pivot at the ends of the plate. If I stand on the plate and push down on the front heel and rear toe the plate will flex and the pivots will pivot but the board will see zero input.....my feet will in effect just make the pivots rotate slightly and the board will be unaffected.

I've used the Donek and the 5 mm Boiler and they are both very much this way. One allows easy twisting of the board for low speed control (Donek) but neither has the ability to translate fore/aft foot torque to the board....the pivots keep that from being possible.

Do you see what I'm saying?

dave

I do but I don't think you have it quite right.  On a plate that has both flex and stiffness, when you press down with your front heel this also induces a torque that lifts up on the front axle.  You're right that plates do reduce the ability to do this.  A perfectly rigid plate would prevent it.  I would consider the 5mm Boilerplate to be pretty darn near perfectly rigid.

*In general I'm of the opinion that squeezing your knees together in hopes of bending the board into a tighter arc is of limited practicality, because you can only manipulate the section of board between your feet. 

[David Kirk]

2 hours ago, Jack M said:

I do but I don't think you have it quite right.  On a plate that has both flex and stiffness, when you press down with your front heel this also induces a torque that lifts up on the front axle.  You're right that plates do reduce the ability to do this.  A perfectly rigid plate would prevent it.  I would consider the 5mm Boilerplate to be pretty darn near perfectly rigid.

*In general I'm of the opinion that squeezing your knees together in hopes of bending the board into a tighter arc is of limited practicality, because you can only manipulate the section of board between your feet. 

Here is where we disagree. If you do as you say it will impart zero bending load on the board itself. If you happen to lean back to push the heel down it will lift the front axle by virtue of the COG moving rearward. But if you just push down on the front heel the front axle will pivot and all the force you are producing will go into bending the plate and none will go toward bending the board.

I'll bet that if you were to put the board on 3 bathroom scales (nose, center and tail) and did what you are saying that the weights would not change.

dave

[Beckmann AG]

8 hours ago, lonbordin said:

It's interesting... the plate is becoming more like the gecko system...

More interesting yet... is that The Plate® is becoming more like a properly tuned ski boot.

[Jack M]

1 hour ago, David Kirk said:

I'll bet that if you were to put the board on 3 bathroom scales (nose, center and tail) and did what you are saying that the weights would not change.

I’ll take that bet!

[David Kirk]

47 minutes ago, Jack M said:

I’ll take that bet!

Me too :)

Try this with a floating axle plate......put the board on the floor and put your boots on and clip in. Now push down with your rear toe/front heel and lift with other toe/heel to try to push the center of the plate closer to the top surface of the board....the only thing that will happen is the plate will flex some (the amount depending on the stiffness of the plate).

Now try to push down on your front heel and lift the front toe while keeping your hips centered over your feet in a effort to lift the nose of the board off the floor. It will not lift regardless of how stiff or soft the plate is (unless the underside of the plate hits the top of the board and then all bets are off). The only way you'll be able to lift the nose is to shift your weight rearward dramatically. To lift the nose you will need to impart a torque to the board and with the friction-free pivot you will not transmit the torque you are applying to the plate to the board regardless of how stiff the plate is or isn't.

Another way to look at is is by picturing bindings mounted to the board via a pivot  - no plate - just a simple pivot under the center of the boot so that the binding is rigid side-to-side but freely pivoting fore/aft. Now imagine trying to lift the nose of the board off the floor by pushing down with the front heel and lifting the front toe. Of course nothing would happen - it would just pivot.

Now one might think that the analogy falls down because of the plate being between the binding and the board and it might fall down if it were not for one end of the plate being on a fore/aft floating pivot. The floating pivot is the key.

I've tried all of the above with both a Donek and Boiler plate and could not lift the toe or tail of the board without moving my hips way forward or back.

 

On the other hand if you don't have a plate on the board you can push and pull with the toes and heels and literally lift the nose and tail off the floor at the same time. One can debate if this is a good thing or not and if it's good riding technique or not but the one thing that is for certain is that you can apply a force through the non-pivoting bindings to the board and bend it more.

Give it a try and tell me if you lift the nose without moving your COG rearward.

dave

[pokkis]

Something is hanging in the air

[lonbordin]

25 minutes ago, pokkis said:

Something is hanging in the air

@pokkis What do you call your integrated binding floating plate things?

Thanks for the side shot... Answered a lot of my questions.

Mahalo.

[daveo]

38 minutes ago, pokkis said:

Something is hanging in the air

Spicy.

[pokkis]

14 minutes ago, lonbordin said:

@pokkis What do you call your integrated binding floating plate things?

Thanks for the side shot... Answered a lot of my questions.

Mahalo.

If it one piece, then plate, if it two pices then bindings

[Jack M]

19 hours ago, Beckmann AG said:

More interesting yet... is that The Plate® is becoming more like a properly tuned ski boot.

Even if one could hone their technique and customize their boots (and how long would that take?) to the point where you were perfectly not pedaling, nose wheelie-ing, or warping the board in any way, you still would not be getting all the benefits of the plate, i.e., the suspension.