Hardboot beginner issues

[jokew]

Hello everyone!

I've been reading the forum for a while but only created an account just now (coinciding with my recent harboot premiere).

In short 
I am having troubles learning how to ride my new hardboot setup (total beginner). I'd like some input on what to do here. It would be awesome if someone who went from softboots to hardboots and struggled could shine some light on to how they got over the initial 'hurdles'.

 

The long version
Me: I snowboarded for two seasons back when I was 14 (so not a lot). I've been skiing for all my life and now when I am 29 I bought a hardboot setup after seeing some [really cool] youtube videos. I'm 187cm tall and weigh in on 75ish kg.
My new setup: A Virus tantalus 176cm with a 17cm waist. UPZ RC 11 boots. Powerlock III bindings (57 degrees on the rear and 63 on the front), 1 really small riser pad on the rear heal.

I bought this setup late december but due to work I've only been able to ride it on 4 separate occasions (yet ). Three 1-day trips and one 3-day trip.

Yesterday I got back from riding my board over the day with a friend who is on a classic freestyle snowboard with softboots. Since I have very little snowboard experience I thought it was going to be an uphill battle and it has. I can ride fast (well, at least I get down as fast as my friends) and I'm fairly stable at high speeds, probably thanks to the board. But man I am a long way from nice clean carves... And I feel really unstable in some situations and like I am about to crash and die at times. Basically I don't feel like I have total control over the situation and I try to stay far away from other people in the slopes so that I don't crash into someone.

And that's maybe fine since I am new to it? 

But.... I tried my friend's freestyle board and I killed it. I don't ever remembered being able to carve when I was 14 but sure enough I could get some carves with in with 0 skid (not many but they occurred every once in a while). I felt really stable and riding was super easy and fun. I had total control and was never afraid of crashing, even at high speeds. Sure the board didn't hold an edge like my tantalus, which feels like a knife compared to the freeride spoon, but it looked like I had been riding for years when I was on the freeride board while on the tantalus I look and feel like a crash about to happen.

So, is there someone here who can give me some pointers on what I am doing wrong (from your own experience perhaps?).

I was up last night thinking I've made a bit of a mistake in buying my whole hardboot setup after watching a bunch of youtube videos... maybe I should have bought a wider board allowing for lower angles? And maybe a shorter board? I don't know... I just feel like I enjoyed the freestyle board so much more yesterday (even though I'd like to have something made a bit more for carving).

 

Really thankful for any input from you guys!


 

 

[Carvin' Marvin]

I'm not here to be helpful, but that is a very aggressive board for a beginner. Like learning to dirtbike on a CR500. If I were to try anything different it would definitely be a wider softer board. 

Edited March 18, 2018 by Carvin' Marvin

[Mord]

Can you tell us the sidecut radius of the board? 

Also, as Marvin said, the board seems really agressive for a beginner. You might have some trouble dealing with it due to the not-so-perfect technique you are probably using.

The Carver's Alamac recommends a damper board to start, which should compensate for the technique.

Not exactly here to be helpful either, considering I'm still on my all-mountain with softboots.

[philw]

Yeah, I'd say that board is too long and too narrow, although I've not ridden one of those so others here may know better.

Long boards tend to be designed for high speed.... which makes them hard to ride at ordinary resort speeds. That said, perhaps I'm biased as it's been years since I rode GS type boards. My resort riding is mostly on public piste with other people around, and I refuse to be limited to "motorway" piste, so shorter boards are my choice there.

I'd take those hard boots and bindings and put them on your mate's board, then learn how to ride that. I ride powder boards with hard boots & bindings all the time, it works fine that way around. Then I'd buy a less extreme board.

Even if you want to ride at one extreme end of the spectrum, it's not a place you're likely to be able to start.

[SunSurfer]

Your narrow waisted board and high binding angles needs a different approach from a freestyle softy setup. 

Rather than tilting the board by leaning over your heels and toes you will need to tilt the board by leaning the board the same way you skied, from the sides of your boots. 

To get the feel of clean carves head to the green slopes and practice your turns by leaning the board over on its edge, facing towards the nose of the board, and put a little more emphasis on the knee that is on the outside of the turn pushing it down towards the carving edge. By the out side knee I mean your  right knee if turning left, and your left knee if turning right. 

I'm an ex skier who moved to carving boards and made my most rapid progress as a beginner on a 180cm, 17cm waisted, Riot Supercarve by deliberate practice on the Greens.  

You have not made a mistake. You are just on the very steepest part of the learning curve.

[Mord]

Another question: Are you riding duck on your friend's board? Carving duck is quite different with carving with a foward stance.

You can look at The Carver's Almanac for some advice. It's a bit old, but still very relevant.

[jokew]

Thanks for all the replies so far!

I agree with you guys that I probably chose a tad bit aggressive board to begin with but I thought since I do alright on boards in general (wake, kite, longboard etc) and the fact that I'm an avid and experienced skier, that I'd be able to power through it and learn eventually. What put me down a bit is that I didn't realize that my skill differed so much on my board and on a freestyle board. I'm going to stick with my board and try to hammer it out in the green slopes but I'll rent a (more normal) board next weekend as well and put my bindings on it just to try it out and play around with the angles a bit. It'll be a 50/50 weekend :)

@Mord
The virus tantalus is elliptical so I'm not sure. And my friends binding angle wasn't duck stance but looked a bit like this:
(and thanks, I'm reading through the beginner and technique section of the carvers almanac atm)

@SunSurfer
Alright, that sounds promising. I think I'm going to scour the internet for carving instructions/beginner help and then go for an all day in the green slopes next weekend (alone). Thinking back on yesterday it makes sense that I'm going about it all wrong. 

 

 

 

Edited March 18, 2018 by jokew

[Corey]

It can be a rough transition! Stick with it. 

Look for the "Norm" drills here: http://www.bomberonline.com/newbies/ They get you to simplify your body movements to let the board just do its thing. Us humans tend to screw up the board's natural response when we're learning. 

[Aracan]

That is one aggressive board for a beginner. If I were you, I would put the bindings and boots on a wider, more forgiving board and work on my technique. On a long, narrow board you might be tempted to seek stability in speed, which, lacking experience, may well result in you going over the handlebars in spectacular fashion (anyone got the link for Jasey Jay's epic crash?), with the risk of hurting yourself and others.

Edit: found it.

 

Edited March 18, 2018 by Aracan

[st_lupo]

Also you mentioned that you were riding fairly fast on the hardboot setup.  Don't do that!  A lot of hard-boot setups will feel really stable at high speeds... until you try to turn.  As a beginner (or intermediate for that matter)  turning on a fast hardboot setup can be an "Oh Crap!" moment regardless of what kind of board you are riding.  Do the norm like everybody mentioned above, and do them slow so that you can start building an understanding of the mechanics that are required without making a mess in your pants.  And don't cave into peer pressure to keep up with your friends.  When I swapped over to hard boots, I was suddenly the "slowest" person in my group of family/friends and got a lot of ribbing for it.   

[Aracan]

Hardbooting is not about speed. Speed is the result, not the method. Once when I already had years of Alpine experience, I followed my then 6yo down a very long, demanding and in many places icy slope. She was an intermediate skier at best, and I was struggling to keep up. 

[RobertAlexander]

Don't worry too much about angles, ride what is comfortable to you.  I started hardboots after only 1 year on softs, and first day rode 70/70 and have not changed a thing, it takes some time, but it sounds like you are already comfortable in getting down the hill.  

On the slope, find your good easy carve spots and try doing one complete carve , then another easy spot, etc,   practice your strong side,  then practice your weak side,    after sometime,  try linking a turn in a easy spot,   and keep doing this,   again after some time , you will start doing more carves in more places, and eventually start to link the whole trail top to bottom.   Focus on getting one trail under your belt,  then do another  trail.   It takes time,  but that is the fun part. Mastering a trail, then going to the next trail,  greens, then blues.  

That is a nice top level board,  respect its power, and learn to use it carefully,   you probably already have respect for the downhill edge, over the handlebars crash.  So learn to Totally commit to an edge and pick the board up as high as you can, it will hold you.   Do back up the hill drills, both for heal and toe side. Helmet, body armour, wrist guards.   Watch your tail/don't get hit.  good luck

[workshop7]

2 hours ago, jokew said:

 ...I do alright on boards in general (wake, kite, longboard etc) and the fact that I'm an avid and experienced skier....

Your skiing experience will help you more than your time spent on other types of boards.  Carving in hardboots, especially on such a narrow and stiff board, is a lot more like water skiing on one ski than it is like wake, kite or longboarding.

Stick with it.  More time spent on greens and shallow blues, by yourself, with all of your attention on proper technique goes a long way.  I also believe that a shorter, wider, and softer board will be beneficial at this stage.

Tons of good information here:

http://www.alpinecarving.com/

http://beckmannag.com/hardboot-snowboarding/a-hardboot-manifesto-v1

Edited March 18, 2018 by workshop7

[jokew]

Thanks again for all the replies!

Sounds like consensus lies around me learning the basics in the green slopes properly. And I think my mistake might have been trying to go down the same kind of slopes I'm used to with skis, pushing for results too fast. I'm definitely going to put some hours into the green slopes with this board until I learn the basics and feel more comfortable. In hindsight I would probably ride a lot better as this point if I would have started out that way from the beginning.

As for the speed, yeah I agree. I just put it out there so you would get a feel for how I ride since I wasn't able to provide a video. I know it isn't all about the speed and that I have been going about this all wrong.

Regarding another easier board I totally think you guys suggesting it are right... I probably shouldn't have started out with this board.. but now I got it and I'm going to give it an honest shot with proper training before switching (I am going to try my bindings on another board though, just to evaluate my options more).

And thanks for all the links and concrete technique tips guys! Going to read it all during this week and then hit the green slopes next weekend! 

Edited March 18, 2018 by jokew

[Mord]

3 hours ago, RobertAlexander said:

Mastering a trail, then going to the next trail,  greens, then blues.  

Right. I just find myself using one trail over and over again on most days.

Greens are good for when you're starting, but as your skill progresses you'd want steeper and steeper terrain to maintain the same speed.

 

[daveo]

8 hours ago, jokew said:

My new setup: A Virus tantalus 176cm with a 17cm waist. UPZ RC 11 boots. Powerlock III bindings (57 degrees on the rear and 63 on the front), 1 really small riser pad on the rear heal.

I think this is your problem. When I started I bought a 21.5cm AM style waist, it was a good (great actually) transition board. Maybe source a used wider board to aid your transition. Just keep the virus (or give it to me lol) until you're ready for it. That's what I'd do anyway.

Did you order the board from Frank? I'm surprised he built you that if you've never stepped foot on a hardboot board.

[SunSurfer]

When you are on the green slopes your goal should be linked, clean carves under control. Speed is noI t essential, indeed it is a mark of better technique if you can carve cleanly at low speeds. Touching the snow is not the goal, that will come later as you transition to steeper slopes and need to get the board higher on its edge to make your turn and control the speed. The snow will come to your hand, not the other way round.

If you have the inserts to produce front foot toe lift and rear foot heel lift that is likely to be helpful. Many riders utilise both.

I ride UPZ RC10S at very similar angles to yourself and have about 6 degrees of both. UPZs have a relatively steep slope on the insole.

Edited March 18, 2018 by SunSurfer

[carvedog]

One thing I do to have people learn balance is riding switch a bit. And not meaning full backwards riding, but being able to ride the 'tail' of the board leading the way on gentle skidding traverses. It is not easy if you haven't done this it can make a big difference in centering you up. 

And yeah your board is likely a bit long, really narrow and whatever....but if you learn low speed control you will begin to ride the board, instead of board rides you. 

Critical to not just learn carves but carve to skid and back to carve. And especially toeside. Not just heelside because it's easier. 

 

 

Edited March 18, 2018 by carvedog

[Aracan]

Deleted to avoid stepping on anyone's toes.

Edited March 19, 2018 by Aracan

[MarkJeangerard]

I'm going to be blunt. Your description of riding fast makes me think you got lucky to some extent. The moves that you know from skiing and softboot snowboarding that just happen to apply to hardboot snowboarding are what got you down the hill. It's the things you don't yet know that keep you from riding the way you want to and could lead to a very unpleasant situation. You have skied enough to know, and are correct in feeling "unstable" and like you didn't "have control over the situation". Your further comments indicate that you get that and are ready to proceed at a more relaxed pace. I'm just piping in here say that I agree strongly with the new strategy. </lecture>

I have an idea why you had an easier time on the softboot setup. 

On snowboards we can tilt the front and back of the board separately at all times. Two feet, one board. Right? Thinking of a ski - one contact point in the middle of the ski = one source of tilt influence. The front and back of the ski will tilt and then track together if we're fairly well balanced. On a snowboard it's much easier to have different tilt angles front and rear even if we are fairly well centered.

So, why was the softboot setup easier? Flex in the ankles and softer board. The suspension system is more supple, more willing to conform to the snow. Moves that you get slightly wrong will tend to sort themselves out. 

For the same reasons the hardboot ride was more difficult. The board is much stiffer. It will only want to make a very specific turn shape. (You will learn what that is and how to manipulate it as time goes on.) Also, the boots are very stiff. There goes your self correcting suspension in the ankle.

That's actually a pretty important difference - because the boots are so stiff anything you do in your upper legs and upper body will have a direct effect on everything, including and especially the tilt of the board, front and back. It's actually kind of easy to tell the board to do certain things without being aware of it. One must take more care to get everything right with the stiff boots and boards. Just like skis! 

One of the reasons to go back to greens is to allow yourself the confidence and time to try moves you have never tried before. What you have never tried before are those body alignments that lead to that stiff snowboard making the shapes you want. The links that have been posted are a great place to start learning what those alignments are and why they work.

Keeping in mind that toeside and heelside are different movements, it's okay to work on one turn at a time. Really get a feel for each turn before going on to the next step. Linking them. Go back to the basic j-turns and start with toeside and heelside skids to stop. When you feel really confident that you're doing nice controlled skids then you can start trying carved turns. It's OK to do one at a time there too. Remember, if you get stuck in a rail you can just keep turning until you're going back up hill. 

Ultimately, a lesson would be best. Try to find carvers in your area. http://forums.bomberonline.com/forum/8-ride-board/ An outside observer might be able to tell what you are ready for next easier than you can. Plus it really helps to know if you've done something right, so you can keep doing it that way. 

Anyway, you've started something now that you will love more every day you do it. Yer stuck. 

 

[Edit to finish the post. My phone started goobling everything up.]

 

Edited March 19, 2018 by MarkJeangerard

[Corey]

Mark, that's great advice that we all missed: Learn the basics of snowboarding first before carving. Sideslipping, garland turns, skidded turns, etc. These basics are needed to handle all the moments when you can't carve. 

This can be done on your Virus, just keep your hips and shoulders pointing the same way as your toes. It'll be a bit different, but these basics should come back pretty quick. 

After that, then go to the Norm drills. 

[workshop7]

3 hours ago, Aracan said:

Deleted to avoid stepping on anyone's toes.

Aracan,

No toes have been stepped on.

I stated that the OP’s experience on skis would help more than his time spent other other boards.  What I meant by this is, his time spent on skis provides much greater gains toward the mental and physical mastery of edge control than the time he could spend on the other boards he mentioned (wake, kite or long boarding).  That is not to say that these other disciplines won’t help.  I just feel that his skiing skills will better translate to hardboot carving.

[ursle]

47 minutes ago, workshop7 said:

Aracan,

No toes have been stepped on.

I stated that the OP’s experience on skis would help more than his time spent other other boards.  What I meant by this is, his time spent on skis provides much greater gains toward the mental and physical mastery of edge control than the time he could spend on the other boards he mentioned (wake, kite or long boarding).  That is not to say that these other disciplines won’t help.  I just feel that his skiing skills will better translate to hardboot carving.

I agree, if the op was a ski racer, 10% of skiers are carvers and all of them are ski racers, they understand how to ride a ski to carve, how to decamber a ski, I'm assuming most softboot riders don't understand a carve, but most hardbooters do.

I also agree, the Virus is an advanced carvers board, the op should start with an MK or something similar, shorter, easier to handle but capable of carving.

 

[workshop7]

45 minutes ago, ursle said:

... the op should start with an MK...

 

I would classify the MK as an advanced to expert board.  It can bite you if you don’t know what you’re doing.

[Aracan]

1 hour ago, workshop7 said:

Aracan,

No toes have been stepped on.

I stated that the OP’s experience on skis would help more than his time spent other other boards.  What I meant by this is, his time spent on skis provides much greater gains toward the mental and physical mastery of edge control than the time he could spend on the other boards he mentioned (wake, kite or long boarding).  That is not to say that these other disciplines won’t help.  I just feel that his skiing skills will better translate to hardboot carving.

I apologize if there have been one or two misunderstandings. I took "other boards" to include the wider snowboard you mentioned. I wholly agree that time on skis will help more to master an alpine snowboard than times on the water or on wheels - the ability to "read" the snow alone is a big plus. Still, I believe he could benefit even more from a wider board. The OP's whole setup, not just the board, but the bindings and to some extent even the boots, are decidedly on the stiff side of things. It's certainly feasible to learn on that kind of equipment, but it's probably not the safest or painless way.