Hardboot beginner issues

[Calle]

Var åker du? (where are you based?)

[Corey]

1 hour ago, workshop7 said:

I would classify the MK as an advanced to expert board.  It can bite you if you don’t know what you’re doing.

I agree.  The Donek MK is demanding of good technique.  Something like an all-mountain board with a medium (~10m to 11m) sidecut would be a great start.  

[jokew]

On 3/18/2018 at 5:57 PM, daveo said:

I think this is your problem. When I started I bought a 21.5cm AM style waist, it was a good (great actually) transition board. Maybe source a used wider board to aid your transition. Just keep the virus (or give it to me lol) until you're ready for it. That's what I'd do anyway.

Did you order the board from Frank? I'm surprised he built you that if you've never stepped foot on a hardboot board.

Yeah I bought it from Frank. I told him that I didn't have much experience but wanted a narrow board and a virus one at that :). I wanted something really different from a regular snowboard (and here we are hehe). I think I initially inquired about the interceptor but he suggested the tantalus if I was only going to have 1 board with my requirements/wishes in mind.

 

20 hours ago, SunSurfer said:

When you are on the green slopes your goal should be linked, clean carves under control. Speed is noI t essential, indeed it is a mark of better technique if you can carve cleanly at low speeds. Touching the snow is not the goal, that will come later as you transition to steeper slopes and need to get the board higher on its edge to make your turn and control the speed. The snow will come to your hand, not the other way round.

If you have the inserts to produce front foot toe lift and rear foot heel lift that is likely to be helpful. Many riders utilise both.

I ride UPZ RC10S at very similar angles to yourself and have about 6 degrees of both. UPZs have a relatively steep slope on the insole.

I have inserts/risers in my bindings (really small ones).
On my front binding I have two (one under the toes and one under the heel so basically just a lift).
On my rear binding I have three (one under the toes and two under the heel so a little bit of heel lift).
Where do I buy more if I want to test around? I tried to find it but couldn't. Was going to email Frank about it but haven't gotten around to it yet.

 

7 hours ago, MarkJeangerard said:

I'm going to be blunt. Your description of riding fast makes me think you got lucky to some extent. The moves that you know from skiing and softboot snowboarding that just happen to apply to hardboot snowboarding are what got you down the hill. It's the things you don't yet know that keep you from riding the way you want to and could lead to a very unpleasant situation. You have skied enough to know, and are correct in feeling "unstable" and like you didn't "have control over the situation". Your further comments indicate that you get that and are ready to proceed at a more relaxed pace. I'm just piping in here say that I agree strongly with the new strategy. </lecture>

I have an idea why you had an easier time on the softboot setup. 

On snowboards we can tilt the front and back of the board separately at all times. Two feet, one board. Right? Thinking of a ski - one contact point in the middle of the ski = one source of tilt influence. The front and back of the ski will tilt and then track together if we're fairly well balanced. On a snowboard it's much easier to have different tilt angles front and rear even if we are fairly well centered.

So, why was the softboot setup easier? Flex in the ankles and softer board. The suspension system is more supple, more willing to conform to the snow. Moves that you get slightly wrong will tend to sort themselves out. 

For the same reasons the hardboot ride was more difficult. The board is much stiffer. It will only want to make a very specific turn shape. (You will learn what that is and how to manipulate it as time goes on.) Also, the boots are very stiff. There goes your self correcting suspension in the ankle.

That's actually a pretty important difference - because the boots are so stiff anything you do in your upper legs and upper body will have a direct effect on everything, including and especially the tilt of the board, front and back. It's actually kind of easy to tell the board to do certain things without being aware of it. One must take more care to get everything right with the stiff boots and boards. Just like skis! 

One of the reasons to go back to greens is to allow yourself the confidence and time to try moves you have never tried before. What you have never tried before are those body alignments that lead to that stiff snowboard making the shapes you want. The links that have been posted are a great place to start learning what those alignments are and why they work.

Keeping in mind that toeside and heelside are different movements, it's okay to work on one turn at a time. Really get a feel for each turn before going on to the next step. Linking them. Go back to the basic j-turns and start with toeside and heelside skids to stop. When you feel really confident that you're doing nice controlled skids then you can start trying carved turns. It's OK to do one at a time there too. Remember, if you get stuck in a rail you can just keep turning until you're going back up hill. 

Ultimately, a lesson would be best. Try to find carvers in your area. http://forums.bomberonline.com/forum/8-ride-board/ An outside observer might be able to tell what you are ready for next easier than you can. Plus it really helps to know if you've done something right, so you can keep doing it that way. 

Anyway, you've started something now that you will love more every day you do it. Yer stuck. 

 

[Edit to finish the post. My phone started goobling everything up.]

 

Thanks for the exposition! Yeah it's going to be lots of hours in the greens until I feel stable & more in control and until I get the technique somewhat going. Unfortunately there harbooting isn't that popular in Sweden but I'll definitely have a look. I think I'm going to ask some to film a 30 sec sequence of me riding so I can post it here or something. 

 

7 hours ago, Corey said:

Mark, that's great advice that we all missed: Learn the basics of snowboarding first before carving. Sideslipping, garland turns, skidded turns, etc. These basics are needed to handle all the moments when you can't carve. 

This can be done on your Virus, just keep your hips and shoulders pointing the same way as your toes. It'll be a bit different, but these basics should come back pretty quick. 

After that, then go to the Norm drills. 

Yeah,  I think I got the basics of snowboarding down already on a regular board (I know it sounds like I don't know what I'm talking about since I have so few hours on a board but at least I feel safe and the board always goes where I want it to go and I can 'ride switch' ('ride switch' as in look like an idiot but still turning and not falling) etc), so I'll just have to practice those basic skills on the virus board as well so I eventually end up feeling just as stable I guess.

 

2 hours ago, Calle said:

Var åker du? (where are you based?)

I live in Stockholm so I usually go to Romme. Couldn't get much vacation in this spring unfortunately :/ so I have only tested the board in Romme and Orsa. Going to Italy in 3 weeks over a long weekend but If I don't improve fast I'll have to ski instead of snowboarding while I'm there.

[ursle]

Any 162 board is going to much easier to ride than any 176 board(carving), but the question remains, is the op a ski carver, if so, knowing what's suppose to happen is a big step in the right correction, if not, well, definitly time for instruction.

[queequeg]

8 hours ago, Corey said:

Sideslipping, garland turns, skidded turns, etc. These basics  [....] This can be done on your Virus, just keep your hips and shoulders pointing the same way as your toes.

This is true, but narrow boards and high stance angles make skidded turns vastly more awkward and tiring. At 17cm wide, the Tantalus he is riding is not a board that likes likes to make skidded turns (that said, his angles are not crazy high — either he has small feet or some significant overhang). My Berserker is 1cm wider than his Tantalus (errr ... I think) and it does not like to skid turns one bit.

Edited March 19, 2018 by queequeg

[BlueB]

On 18/03/2018 at 1:02 AM, jokew said:

Hello everyone!

I've been reading the forum for a while but only created an account just now (coinciding with my recent harboot premiere).

In short 
I am having troubles learning how to ride my new hardboot setup (total beginner). I'd like some input on what to do here. It would be awesome if someone who went from softboots to hardboots and struggled could shine some light on to how they got over the initial 'hurdles'.

 

The long version
Me: I snowboarded for two seasons back when I was 14 (so not a lot). I've been skiing for all my life and now when I am 29 I bought a hardboot setup after seeing some [really cool] youtube videos. I'm 187cm tall and weigh in on 75ish kg.
My new setup: A Virus tantalus 176cm with a 17cm waist. UPZ RC 11 boots. Powerlock III bindings (57 degrees on the rear and 63 on the front), 1 really small riser pad on the rear heal.

I bought this setup late december but due to work I've only been able to ride it on 4 separate occasions (yet ). Three 1-day trips and one 3-day trip.

Yesterday I got back from riding my board over the day with a friend who is on a classic freestyle snowboard with softboots. Since I have very little snowboard experience I thought it was going to be an uphill battle and it has. I can ride fast (well, at least I get down as fast as my friends) and I'm fairly stable at high speeds, probably thanks to the board. But man I am a long way from nice clean carves... And I feel really unstable in some situations and like I am about to crash and die at times. Basically I don't feel like I have total control over the situation and I try to stay far away from other people in the slopes so that I don't crash into someone.

And that's maybe fine since I am new to it? 

But.... I tried my friend's freestyle board and I killed it. I don't ever remembered being able to carve when I was 14 but sure enough I could get some carves with in with 0 skid (not many but they occurred every once in a while). I felt really stable and riding was super easy and fun. I had total control and was never afraid of crashing, even at high speeds. Sure the board didn't hold an edge like my tantalus, which feels like a knife compared to the freeride spoon, but it looked like I had been riding for years when I was on the freeride board while on the tantalus I look and feel like a crash about to happen.

So, is there someone here who can give me some pointers on what I am doing wrong (from your own experience perhaps?).

I was up last night thinking I've made a bit of a mistake in buying my whole hardboot setup after watching a bunch of youtube videos... maybe I should have bought a wider board allowing for lower angles? And maybe a shorter board? I don't know... I just feel like I enjoyed the freestyle board so much more yesterday (even though I'd like to have something made a bit more for carving).

 

Really thankful for any input from you guys!


 

 

Very aggressive board... 

Look at Corey's advice about an all-mountain carver. 

Also, do you still have your soft boot board? Put your new playe bindings on it and ride it with hard boots with lowish forward angles. It might be just the right thing to get you going... 

Also, on your current setup, I'd look into putting all the front shims under the front toe and all the rear shims under the rear heel. 

[Aracan]

Not sure for what you need the risers, but anyway ... on the front binding try keeping the one under the toe and remove the one under the heel. Or put both under the toe. The UPZs have quite a bit of a stiletto heel.

[Calle]

15 hours ago, jokew said:

I live in Stockholm so I usually go to Romme. Couldn't get much vacation in this spring unfortunately :/ so I have only tested the board in Romme and Orsa. Going to Italy in 3 weeks over a long weekend but If I don't improve fast I'll have to ski instead of snowboarding while I'm there.

As many have said probably a big beginner board for a narrow crowded hill as Romme. But it works just takes a little commitment (cant find any radius of the tantalus?). Not too far from Kungsberget then. I dont visit Romme as often as i'd wish.

[jokew]

Hello!
I completely missed the move to the new url...

Anyway I was in Italy this weekend and I felt some improvement happening. I forgot to get a lot of footage of me riding.. so at the absolutely last ride down to the village the last day I remembered that I wanted to have some footage of me riding.

So this is me during the last run on a really flat transport slope back to the hotel. The weather wasn't great, it was 15 degrees at 2000 meters and the snow is complete slush at this point.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1sUSBdRWIqpZAzr_TTLE2ROM2zHuk2t2k/view

I know it isn't the most exciting or impressive clip but it's all I have.

I tried to get some practice in during the trip and do what you guys suggested that I try. I have a long long way to go but at least I felt more in control and that some practice will get me carving down the slopes in time  

Unfortunately it feels like the season is over at this point...

 

On 3/20/2018 at 10:36 AM, Calle said:

As many have said probably a big beginner board for a narrow crowded hill as Romme. But it works just takes a little commitment (cant find any radius of the tantalus?). Not too far from Kungsberget then. I dont visit Romme as often as i'd wish.

The radius is elliptical, so I can't really say.

 

On 3/20/2018 at 2:40 AM, BlueB said:

Very aggressive board... 

Look at Corey's advice about an all-mountain carver. 

Also, do you still have your soft boot board? Put your new playe bindings on it and ride it with hard boots with lowish forward angles. It might be just the right thing to get you going... 

Also, on your current setup, I'd look into putting all the front shims under the front toe and all the rear shims under the rear heel. 

I don't have a soft board. Back in the days (15 years ago) when I tried a snowboard I didn't buy one
But I think I'll stick to my virus board and just practice practice practice. And I moved a riser under the toe, did wonders for my left leg quad fatigue.

 

On 3/19/2018 at 8:03 PM, queequeg said:

This is true, but narrow boards and high stance angles make skidded turns vastly more awkward and tiring. At 17cm wide, the Tantalus he is riding is not a board that likes likes to make skidded turns (that said, his angles are not crazy high — either he has small feet or some significant overhang). My Berserker is 1cm wider than his Tantalus (errr ... I think) and it does not like to skid turns one bit.

Maybe its the boots? (UPZ) But I dont have much overhang, at least I never boot out. And I'm not really extreme carving down the slopes so I think it's fine  
Frank suggested that I go for these angles. I have 27,5 mondo feet.

 

On 3/19/2018 at 7:49 PM, ursle said:

Any 162 board is going to much easier to ride than any 176 board(carving), but the question remains, is the op a ski carver, if so, knowing what's suppose to happen is a big step in the right correction, if not, well, definitly time for instruction.

I know my clip above doesn't look like much but I'm actually a good skier and I know how to carve (on skis). So I know what I'm looking for, it's just that I don't have nearly enough experience on a snowboard.... yet  

[SunSurfer]

Yet!

Your toeside turns look more committed, you look more unsure on heelside.

At the high binding angles you are using your heel side turns are likely to improve if you can rotate your pelvis more towards the nose of the board. On your heel side turns currently your pelvis is facing very much across the board. As a skier you know about keeping your pelvis and upper body facing down the fall line and your lower body angulating beneath you. Try the same basic technique with this narrow carving board. 

If you had a wider board, and lower binding angles, then the solution might well be different. 

I'll edit this post later to add links to videos of riders running high angles for you to compare with your own turns. Your video reminds me of my own riding the first year I rode a 17cm waist 180cm carving board. 
---------------------------------
See the first few riders shown here for some good examples of the pelvis well rotated forward both toe & heelside. There are a couple of contrasting examples of the pelvis more across the board on heelside. The boards are generaaly wider than your Virus but the riding principle is clearly shown.

My avatar shows a still of my forward facing pelvis on heelside.

Edited April 10, 2018 by SunSurfer

[BlueB]

1 hour ago, jokew said:

I'm actually a good skier and I know how to carve (on skis). So I know what I'm looking for, it's just that I don't have nearly enough experience on a snowboard.... yet  

Ok, that makes teaching easier! This is what you need to visualise and pretend: you are skiing on a single fat ski, on one leg. Your front foit is the toes of that single ski boot, your rear foot is the heel of the same ski boot. Align the upper body like on skis, drive the knees and you'll be skiing your board in no time! 

Otherwise the analysis by SS is spot on. To avoid that heel side counter-rotation, you need to pre-rotate into the heel side turn. At the edge change (or just prior), just look over your left shoulder, and allow the head to lead the shoulders, both hands and hips into the direction of the heelside turn. Left hand can never cross to the right side of the board. Right hand can never go behind the rear binding. 

Edited April 10, 2018 by BlueB

[Aracan]

+1. Do rotation drills. Look where you want to go (in an exaggerated manner). Point uphill with your inside hand. Give the board time to follow your input.

[OhD]

Nice video work, Sunsurfer!

[SunSurfer]

1 hour ago, OhD said:

Nice video work, Sunsurfer!

I wish! 

No, Johnasmo has the credits for that one. Besides, you're no slouch with video mode on a DSLR. I still have video you shot at SES 2015. 

Edited April 11, 2018 by SunSurfer

[jokew]

On 4/10/2018 at 5:05 AM, SunSurfer said:

Yet!

Your toeside turns look more committed, you look more unsure on heelside.

At the high binding angles you are using your heel side turns are likely to improve if you can rotate your pelvis more towards the nose of the board. On your heel side turns currently your pelvis is facing very much across the board. As a skier you know about keeping your pelvis and upper body facing down the fall line and your lower body angulating beneath you. Try the same basic technique with this narrow carving board. 

If you had a wider board, and lower binding angles, then the solution might well be different. 

I'll edit this post later to add links to videos of riders running high angles for you to compare with your own turns. Your video reminds me of my own riding the first year I rode a 17cm waist 180cm carving board. 
---------------------------------
See the first few riders shown here for some good examples of the pelvis well rotated forward both toe & heelside. There are a couple of contrasting examples of the pelvis more across the board on heelside. The boards are generaaly wider than your Virus but the riding principle is clearly shown.

 

On 4/10/2018 at 5:25 AM, BlueB said:

Ok, that makes teaching easier! This is what you need to visualise and pretend: you are skiing on a single fat ski, on one leg. Your front foit is the toes of that single ski boot, your rear foot is the heel of the same ski boot. Align the upper body like on skis, drive the knees and you'll be skiing your board in no time! 

Otherwise the analysis by SS is spot on. To avoid that heel side counter-rotation, you need to pre-rotate into the heel side turn. At the edge change (or just prior), just look over your left shoulder, and allow the head to lead the shoulders, both hands and hips into the direction of the heelside turn. Left hand can never cross to the right side of the board. Right hand can never go behind the rear binding. 

 

On 4/10/2018 at 9:13 AM, Aracan said:

+1. Do rotation drills. Look where you want to go (in an exaggerated manner). Point uphill with your inside hand. Give the board time to follow your input.

 

 

Thanks for the input! I completely agree with everything in theory, i just need more time on the board to put it all into practice.
I remember feeling like my heelside turns are more like regular snowboard turns compared to my frontside turns.  

God I really can't wait until next season... currently trying to find the best skiresort in the end of april... Also this last ski trip wasn't optimal. Ponte di legno together with a bunch of coworkers who wanted to ski reds and blacks on the glacier might not have been the best arena for my carving improvements. I want to travel alone somewhere over the weekend.

Edited April 11, 2018 by jokew

[Colozeus]

One of the best videos i have watched dozens of times. This video covers most all of the advice mentioned on this forum. The stick figure model that he uses to explain positioning is very good. 

 

Edited April 12, 2018 by Colozeus
Wrong video link

[fish]

I found that something more along the lines of an all mountain alpine board really helped me to get the feel for carving in hardboots. At the beginning the long, skinny boards were tough to use. My situation was complicated by the fact that I was riding in really messy, chopped up snow. 

[Tddragon]

On 4/11/2018 at 1:02 PM, Colozeus said:

One of the best videos i have watched dozens of times. This video covers most all of the advice mentioned on this forum. The stick figure model that he uses to explain positioning is very good. 

 

WOW WOW WOW! Amazing. Best ever overview on step by step process to learn hardboot carving. Just got into it and really appreciate this! Thanks!

[SunSurfer]

Playlist of the instruction videos I've found. The above video is in the list.

Tried to put together a number of playlists of useful videos for riders so have a look around the channel. Recently made them public. RiotSupercarver (YouTube) = SunSurfer(AlpineSnowboarder.com)

 

Edited March 22, 2020 by SunSurfer

[RobertAlexander]

On 3/18/2018 at 8:40 AM, RobertAlexander said:

Don't worry too much about angles, ride what is comfortable to you.  I started hardboots after only 1 year on softs, and first day rode 70/70 and have not changed a thing, it takes some time, but it sounds like you are already comfortable in getting down the hill.  

On the slope, find your good easy carve spots and try doing one complete carve , then another easy spot, etc,   practice your strong side,  then practice your weak side,    after sometime,  try linking a turn in a easy spot,   and keep doing this,   again after some time , you will start doing more carves in more places, and eventually start to link the whole trail top to bottom.   Focus on getting one trail under your belt,  then do another  trail.   It takes time,  but that is the fun part. Mastering a trail, then going to the next trail,  greens, then blues.  

That is a nice top level board,  respect its power, and learn to use it carefully,   you probably already have respect for the downhill edge, over the handlebars crash.  So learn to Totally commit to an edge and pick the board up as high as you can, it will hold you.   Do back up the hill drills, both for heal and toe side. Helmet, body armour, wrist guards.   Watch your tail/don't get hit.  good luck

I just picked up a used Virus Terminator,  very similar to your Tantalus.    From the few days I had on it at the end of our snow season,  It is an extreme high performance board.  Keep it,    they are hard to find.   But try to get another hardboot board that will be an easier board to ride and learn on.   

[Tddragon]

2 hours ago, SunSurfer said:

Playlist of the instruction videos I've found. The above video is in the list.

Tried to put together a number of playlists of useful videos for riders so have a look around the channel. Recently made them public. RiotSupercarver (YouTube) = SunSurfer(AlpineSnowboarder.com)

 

[johnasmo]

There a lot of ways to screw up a carve; a lot of them start at the hips.  But it's early for that...

Time on snow is the biggest factor at first.  It takes time to train the mind that the edge will hold.  You've got to learn how the board behaves as it goes higher and higher on edge, and you've got to learn body positioning and movements that facilitate getting it to those edge angles.  The higher edge angles you can reach on alpine gear over typical softbooting require the mind to be willing to commit fully to the edge.  If your conscious or subconscious is convinced the edge won't hold, self-preservation circuitry won't let your body put itself in the position it needs to be in.  Suppressing that circuitry takes time on snow. 

As for board width, I don't think being on the narrow side of things is necessarily a disadvantage.  I remember having my best early progression when I picked up a used Donek Vlad Carve 175 with 17.5 waist.  Higher binding angles force your hips to align more with the board, and I think that can help progress your heel side angulation while staying stacked over the board.  If you go too wide, you could learn style and technique more appropriate to softboot carving.  Which if fine too, but doesn't sound like your goal right now. 

The issue with the Virus might be sidecut radius.  Too long a sidecut will force you into higher speeds and bigger turns where your self-preservation circuitry could slow your progress.  The longer the sidecut, the higher on edge you need to make the board to tighten turn radius.  Getting that high takes experience.  The Virus site doesn't divulge sidecut depth, but they say its got 1550 mm of effective edge.  A radial 12 m equivalent of whatever it is would have around a 25 mm sidecut depth with a chord length of 1550 mm.  You can measure it.

There's actually nothing wrong with long sidecuts, they give you plenty of time to think about each turn and make adjustments along the way.  I further progressed on a 188 Coiler with a 17m sidecut.  But you need a lot of wide open space if you're trying to learn on one as a first board.  I think something around 11 - 12 meters makes a better starting point.  Too small is also a problem; things happen too fast -- you can't spend much time being high on edge to sort things out.

Anyway, stick with it and good luck.  Experiment with binding stance and angles to where your hip positioning is aligned with your feet when neutral and you still have range of motion to squat and twist from there as needed while staying vertically stacked over the board.  Get your legs right and you hips will follow, get your hips rights and your torso will follow, get it all right and magic happens.