Racing v. Carving boards

[jng]

When explaining my carving board to someone unfamiliar with the sport, I often will say that it’s like a racing board. In fact I use my Nirvana for beer league racing but I really don’t know what’s fundamentally different between the two.

What exactly is the difference between a carving board and a racing board in terms of performance and construction? How do those differences translate to how you ride the board? Let’s assume you asked Bruce or Sean to build you two boards for the same turn size, one for carving and one for racing, what would you get?

[TVR]

Sarcastic response:

the difference is, I think I am racing while I sort of carve around gates while someone like Jack thinks he is carving while doing 70mph down the hill on his free days....

 

In all honesty, this is a very good question, as each board is often used for the other purpose....

[MNSurfer]

Stiffness? I don't know; I use my REV 175 as a recreational/powder board.

[billyt.]

Price?

[dredman]

This is a really good question that I am sure will be answered with lots of technical answers. I will try and give my understanding of the difference in not so technical terms...

Race boards are for setting a turn then going straight to the next gate for a short turn then repeat.  They also tend to have a flex profile that will accelerate through the turn typically with a stiffer tail.  You may hear that they do not like to finish the turn.

Freecarve boards like to finish the turn across the fall line.  This give you good speed control.  They often have a forgiving flex pattern that work well in a wide range of carving conditions.  

There are tons of tricks that different board builders do to blend designs for specific applications.  Side cut, metal construction, core layup, amount/direction/pattern of fiberglass or carbon. 

The magic of this niche sport is that we have amazing board builders available locally in North America  (Sean @ Donek, Bruce @ Coiler, Mark @ Thirst, Prior) that will listen to your needs, watch a video of your riding and build you some magic if you listen to them. 

 

 

[Jack M]

1 hour ago, jng said:

When explaining my carving board to someone unfamiliar with the sport, I often will say that it’s like a racing board. In fact I use my Nirvana for beer league racing but I really don’t know what’s fundamentally different between the two.

What exactly is the difference between a carving board and a racing board in terms of performance and construction? How do those differences translate to how you ride the board? Let’s assume you asked Bruce or Sean to build you two boards for the same turn size, one for carving and one for racing, what would you get?

Using my Nirvana and sometimes NSR185 for beer league last year:

http://skiracing.nastar.com/index.jsp?year=2017&source=selectrankings2&pagename=viewrankings&overallsnowboard=Y&male=Y

Using my new-to-me Kessler 180 for beer league this year:

http://skiracing.nastar.com/index.jsp?year=2018&source=selectrankings2&pagename=viewrankings&overallsnowboard=Y&male=Y

The Kessler has been a revelation.  I bought it on a whim late last season when it popped up in the classifieds having been used for 1 day and at a price I couldn't resist.  It's a lot stiffer and the tail is a lot straighter (19m).  It is simply made to go around gates.  I just carve it and the board goes where it goes and oh look, it arrives at the next gate almost by itself.  Freecarve boards are happiest making "C" shaped carves.  Race boards are happiest making "(" shaped carves.  I can freecarve the Kessler, it requires more speed and more commitment than a freecarve board, but it is very rewarding, like nothing else.  It takes a quick extra tilt of the edge on your part at the end of the turn to get a snappy finish out of it.  If you just ease off the edge then the board won't hook but will accelerate downhill.  Last weekend we had great chalky conditions - fast and firm.  I used my Kessler on Saturday, Nirvana on Sunday.  Coming off the Kessler, the Coiler felt like a noodle.  I'm going to be using the K for more freecarving whenever it makes sense now.

"Let’s assume you asked Bruce or Sean to build you two boards for the same turn size, one for carving and one for racing, what would you get?" Well, turn size is a function of sidecut and flex and speed.  So two boards built to achieve the exact same turn size and speed I think would be built the same. However generally speaking, a freecarve board is going to be softer and curvier to be able to make that turn size happen at lower speeds.  My Coiler NSR185 is softer and turnier than this Kessler 180.

I also got a Kessler 168.  That is basically a freecarve board as far as I'm concerned.  I think it is similar to the 162 SL, just 6cm longer and 1m longer in the nose (8-12m vs 7-12m).  Very fun, very versatile, finishes the turn, does not require ludicrous speed.  Would be a great intro to race boards for any freecarver.

[workshop7]

28 minutes ago, dredman said:

Race boards...  You may hear that they do not like to finish the turn.

Freecarve boards like to finish the turn...  

 

 

The side cut geometry has a lot to do with this.  Most boards that are specifically designed for a race course have a tight radius in the nose and a longer one at the tail.  This is the biggest reason that riders say that a race board does not finish a turn.  

 

Edited February 8, 2018 by workshop7

[lonbordin]

I'd add to this that modern GS race boards are mostly designed with use of an isolation plate in mind.  Modern race boards are also exceptionally damp... they suck up vibrations like crazy.  Also, IMHO, most race boards tend to only come alive at speed... not slow speed carving oriented.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Don't race boards generally have more taper as well? 

[Jack M]

1 hour ago, Neil Gendzwill said:

Don't race boards generally have more taper as well? 

Yes.  I think it makes it easier to stivot and slarve and release from a carve.  It's also a by-product of having a longer radius in the tail.

[yamifumi]

1 hour ago, lonbordin said:

Also, IMHO, most race boards tend to only come alive at speed... not slow speed carving oriented.

I rode Kessler 185 and that thing needs speed in order to have good carving and fun. It was hard as the local ski area does not have that wide of runs. this thing needs open space to carve out some nice turns

2 hours ago, workshop7 said:

The side cut geometry has a lot to do with this.  Most boards that are specifically designed for a race course have a tight radius in the nose and a longer one at the tail.  This is the biggest reason that riders say that a race board does not finish a turn.  

 

I rode Donek Rev 180 (SCR 11.5-19m) and Donek Rev 185 (SCR 13-17). I felt that Donek 185 felt more nimble, fun and like to finish the turns compare to Donek 180. The stiffness is very similar to each other from how it felt. I really like Donek Rev 185 with 13-17m SCR and loves to finish the turn compared to stock SCR. Although Donek Rev is race board, with different SCR, it can be good freecarve board.

[bigwavedave]

6 hours ago, Jack Michaud said:

Yes.  I think it makes it easier to stivot and slarve and release from a carve.  It's also a by-product of having a longer radius in the tail.

Yes to the first part, not necessarily to the second part.

You can have a large taper with a single radius sidecut. They are independent, but it gets complicated, because there are other factors involved like the  amount of decamber, which affects how quickly the edge engages in the nose.

I've had 2 Coilers and one Donek built with "race construction", but with a near radial sidecut. A Donek Rev with a 11-12m sidecut ended up with 2cm taper (same as the standard REV),  a 179 Coiler REVelation with 13-14m scr has 5mm taper, and a Coiler SL 165 with 9-10 scr ended up with 1.6cm of taper.

I left it up to the Bruce and Sean to work out the formula (there are a lot of design factors to balance). I just wanted the performance characteristics of a race board with a near radial scr so it was easier to complete turns. 

I've had Kesslers, SG, REV standard race boards and loved everything about them except how much focus it took to make them complete a turn.  I like going fast in the turn, but like to use the carve to bleed off some speed before rocketing off into the next one.

[jng]

23 hours ago, Jack Michaud said:

Using my Nirvana and sometimes NSR185 for beer league last year:

http://skiracing.nastar.com/index.jsp?year=2017&source=selectrankings2&pagename=viewrankings&overallsnowboard=Y&male=Y

Using my new-to-me Kessler 180 for beer league this year:

http://skiracing.nastar.com/index.jsp?year=2018&source=selectrankings2&pagename=viewrankings&overallsnowboard=Y&male=Y

 

Jack,

Maybe you made it to #1 because Chris Klug didn't race. Seriously, that's super impressive, and thanks for the detailed explanation.

[GeoffV]

I was ahead of Jack last season. Jack and I have discovered that Kessler World Cup boards do make a big difference in the course, he is killing it this year with his handicap and I can't catch him.

[Buell]

For obvious reasons, raceboards are stiffer in the middle and designed to not lose speed while in a turn. Freecarve boards are softer in the middle and designed to come out of a turn at a slower speed.

 

On 2/8/2018 at 7:31 AM, Jack Michaud said:

I also got a Kessler 168.  That is basically a freecarve board as far as I'm concerned.  I think it is similar to the 162 SL, just 6cm longer and 1m longer in the nose (8-12m vs 7-12m).  Very fun, very versatile, finishes the turn, does not require ludicrous speed.  Would be a great intro to race boards for any freecarver.

Jack, if you get a chance, try the 162 SL. I have had a stock Kessler 168 and have ridden a stock 162SL for a few days. They are completely different boards. At my 150 pounds, the 168 was easy and forgiving (still fast) to ride while the 162 SL was not. Basically, even thought the specs are similar, the 162SL is a true slalom board and the 168 is more of a freecarver that can run SL or GS for people who only want one board. I also found the 171 Kessler to be quite forgiving. Probably because that one is built for small riders (smaller than me) racing GS.

 

 

 

 

Edited February 9, 2018 by Buell
loose / lose correction

[st_lupo]

4 hours ago, Buell said:

For obvious reasons, raceboards are stiffer in the middle and designed to not loose speed while in a turn. Freecarve boards are softer in the middle and designed to come out of a turn at a slower speed.

 

Jack, if you get a chance, try the 162 SL. I have had a stock Kessler 168 and have ridden a stock 162SL for a few days. They are completely different boards. At my 150 pounds, the 168 was easy and forgiving (still fast) to ride while the 162 SL was not. Basically, even thought the specs are similar, the 162SL is a true slalom board and the 168 is more of a freecarver that can run SL or GS for people who only want one board. I also found the 171 Kessler to be quite forgiving. Probably because that one is built for small riders (smaller than me) racing GS.

The 162 sure has some magic going on in it.  I had mine out for back to back runs along with my NFC energy 170 (with scr of 10/12/11), and even though I was turning the 162 inside of the Coiler's tracks it managed to keep a stupid amount of speed.  When I swapped back out to the Coiler it comparatively felt like I was stepping on the brakes in each carve.  This might be the board or it might be that the Kessler doesn't let me get away with bad habits to the degree that the Coiler will, and so I was turning a cleaner line on the Kessler.  Either way, the Kessler is a hoot to ride, but the Coiler would be my first choice when riding steep and unfamiliar terrain just because of that speed management.  Like everyone mentioned that 162 is a lot stiffer than any of my other boards and it is heavier than the Coiler by about 1.5lbs.

[lonbordin]

I was riding the 185 Kessler tonight w/Apex plate and was reminded how these race boards will try to save you... a couple of times the tail power put me into the air and I did a nose touchdown into carve... and made it!   

I suck and this setup makes me look good and fast! 

Edited February 10, 2018 by lonbordin
zoooooooooom!

[ursle]

On 2/8/2018 at 9:46 AM, jng said:

When explaining my carving board to someone unfamiliar with the sport, I often will say that it’s like a racing board. In fact I use my Nirvana for beer league racing but I really don’t know what’s fundamentally different between the two.

What exactly is the difference between a carving board and a racing board in terms of performance and construction? How do those differences translate to how you ride the board? Let’s assume you asked Bruce or Sean to build you two boards for the same turn size, one for carving and one for racing, what would you get?

So, all bicycles can be raced, but a racing bicycle wastes less energy, it's got steeper angles on the downtube and the fork, it weighs less.

All snowboards can be raced, but the winning board is going to take more of the riders energy and make cleaner lines, it's going to lose less energy. Kessler came up with a formula that all others followed, tighter turning tip, less tight mid and even less tail, added rocker and made the tail less wide than the tip, used titanal, rubber damping and won everything. When he was still handmaking boards, he built them for the riders weight and ability.

If you have enough room a kessler will finish a turn, for example, rcently there was a sigi video freecarving, I bet he was on a plated 185, on a wideeee trail and his board was coming around beautifully, no it wasn't a Kessler, but very similar.

 

[philw]

I guess you'd have to ask a racer, which I'm not. My experience then is limited, but here it is...

• The main thing about my first and last GS race board was that it was designed to be ridden quickly.
  It was hard to find safe places to ride it that fast on piste, which makes perfect sense if you think about it.
  In powder that board was a plank - big enough to float, but completely unresponsive. No surprise there.
   
• My first and last "carving" board...  Was easy to put on edge and not hugely responsive.
  It would get into a carve and didn't particularly want to get out of it again.

The features of those boards were designed for their respective uses.

I use the term "race board" or "race boots" when people ask me about my gear. That tells them something they immediately get and it's a very positive concept to most people: they "race" each other all the time.

Or by analogy: the race board is a track car; the "carving" board is a grand tourer.

[jng]

5 hours ago, philw said:

Or by analogy: the race board is a track car; the "carving" board is a grand tourer.

...and a softboot snowboard is an SUV. 

[Jack M]

On 2/10/2018 at 8:08 AM, ursle said:

tighter turning tip, less tight mid and even less tail

I used to think this, but I measured my 168 and the curvature is longest in the middle.  In fact the waist is a constant 202mm for a full 15cm.    Haven't measured my 180 yet.

On 2/8/2018 at 8:26 PM, bigwavedave said:

Yes to the first part, not necessarily to the second part.

Sure, you can have whatever taper you want with whatever sidecut shape you want, simply by rotating the sidecuts.  Just pointing out that having a shorter radius in front and a longer radius in back will result in taper if the sidecuts are not rotated, which seems typical.