the Hands, what role do they play

[softbootsurfer]

I wondered what role the hands play in your Snowboarding,  after a life spent on the edge across different disciplines, I feel they are what guides my body down the hill, some here have said they Snowboard with their hands behind their back and it is all feet and the hands are not important...I realize the mind is what is leading the charge, but are the Hands more than just Style ?

 

[Neil Gendzwill]

Too much use of my hands is a signal to me that I'm doing something wrong from the waist down.

 

Or at least, that's what she said.

[najserrot]

Dont personally ride with hands behind. But ridding with hands behind the small of my back has tought me that they are not that important in recreational carving. But they help in practising angulation in the beginning.

[Eric Brammer aka PSR]

IMHO, they're a 'feeler gauge' as to how your overall balance is doing. If you're trying for that Method grab, 12 ft. up, and instead you're rollin' down the windows (That's for those of us who recall when economy cars didn't have electric windows...), well, you're in the wrong balance point, time to adjust it!   Quickly, I might note..

 

In Angulation, they're a great reference point.  Just keep an imaginary cafeteria Tray up just in your line-of-sight, with expensive wine in tippy goblets, on The Tray, and The Tray on the backs of your hands; NOW, Keep It LEVEL, from arc to arc. Easy!  Or not.  

 

As Kevin Burnham, a dude I rode with for the 1st 18 years I rode [and taught alongside the first 3 years Okemo had snowboard instruction], said to a PSIA Examiner in 1989 ; " You Guys Cheat! You use the skipole as a crutch, and then complain about snowboarders moving their hands about to keep their balance! Try using poles 4" too short, go ahead... Look, my hands and arms are , in a your terminology, 'Mass Extension Units', parts of the body I can use creating a balance point Ahead of where I want to go, or I can use them for balance recovery, and I can also do Grabs for the 'style' of grabbing!"    

 He was, I believe, totally spot-on!  

 

Watch Steve Graham or Craig Kelly in early 90's videos, and the arms/hands often predict where he's going in a turn, and, of course he pulls grabs that're still noteworthy. It's not that a 'quiet' style is right nor wrong, it's how one chooses to deal with the forces involved, and maybe how style affects their attitude. If it 'looks' right, it probably was at that moment-in-time!

[lordmetroland]

Too much use of my hands is a signal to me that I'm doing something wrong from the waist down.

 

My hands are still like koi ponds in twilight. But massive, violent, gyrating hip thrusts are the secret to my flow. And I know that it's impressive to watch, because people can't seem to take their eyes off me.

[big mario]

My hands are still like koi ponds in twilight. But massive, violent, gyrating hip thrusts are the secret to my flow. And I know that it's impressive to watch, because people can't seem to take their eyes off me.

Like FedEx, you deliver yet once again

I might have to rescind that standing invite to ride with us in order to preserve any shred of dignity we may still possess

As for my hands, as long as they are out in front,and I can resist the temptation to put them in the snow, life, and my riding, is good

Edited May 4, 2016 by big mario

[Eric Brammer aka PSR]

My hands are still like koi ponds in twilight. But massive, violent, gyrating hip thrusts are the secret to my flow. And I know that it's impressive to watch, because people can't seem to take their eyes off me.

Yeah, this cute, Hawaiian instructor, Yunni, all of 5'-6" and 110 Lbs, came out with this description during training at Stratton for the toe/heel cross-over;  She said Just move your hips like you're in a Porno, back and forth!  And, man, I was thinking,'wait we show how to Pump through a turn!'...

[RCrobar]

Edited June 3, 2016 by RCrobar

[Eric Brammer aka PSR]

I hope Vlad is cool with my grabbing this;

 

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2u96fv

[philw]

What role do the play, or what role should they play?

 

Short answer: for me, nothing at all. They sway about as I shift my weight about in the turns, but that's a reaction to what's happening elsewhere, you see it particularly with short swings. The hands show the effect of turning: they are not the cause of it. If I wave them about it's for one of two reasons: (a) I'm in the bumps and I'm too tired/ the board's too stiff; (b) I have some really, really good music in my ears.

 

Late 1980s style involved lots of arm waving: it's a stylistic thing I think. Nothing wrong with that.

 

If you're holding a GoPro... then it puts you out of position and, well here's how it sometimes looks (from Carving Masters 2016 last weekend. I'm not saying this is a good example of anything, but it shows where my arms were when the shot was taken.

 

To me, hard booting is all about the hips.

 

Edited May 4, 2016 by philw

[ursle]

Fluffing around in soft stuff matters not, but watch an ice rider, hands are in cowboy about to draw a gun position, with the shoulders in a position to put the most weight on the edge. Or you can use them to touch down and take weight off the edge, the exact opposite of carving.

[softbootsurfer]

Thanks for the responses

[Corey]

One of the exercises Sean Cassidy (spelling?) had us do many years ago in a clinic was to grab the hem of your jacket and carve using only the lower body.  That exercise opened a whole new thought process for me, revealing that the hands have a very minor contribution compared to the feet.  

 

I rode with a rider at ATC this year that had all the right hand/shoulder/hip positions but it just wasn't clicking into nice C-shaped arcs.  We worked on focusing on the feet and tipping the board up high, and all of a sudden their carving improved dramatically.  

 

For me, my hands are sensing the lean angle and, to a lesser degree, helping to slow down a faceplant if/when I lose the edge.  I'm trying to drag them less for the sake of my shoulders, but it's a habit that I'm struggling to break!  

 

Or you can use them to touch down and take weight off the edge, the exact opposite of carving.

 

Interesting comment, Ursle!  There definitely are some videos out there where the person simply lays down on the snow and unweights the edge mid-carve.  You can tell this is happening when they stop turning, or the turn radius gets really large.  But a hand touching the snow doesn't always indicate that it's supporting all the weight.  Look at a motorcycle racer putting their knee down - they're not putting appreciable weight on the knee, and they'd quickly stop doing that as it would reduce the lateral grip of their tires, but yet it seems to be something they do very regularly for some reason.  

 

The Swoard and Velvet videos show a nice balance that I'd like to achieve; where the edge is carving a very-nearly pure turn (1-2" wide path) but they're also touching down many parts of their bodies.  As the center of mass approaches the snow, the lateral force that must be generated by the board to support the rider approaches infinity, but these guys and gals are supporting some of their vertical weight onto the snow while still keeping the board carving.  It's an impressive mastery of the forces!  

[Neil Gendzwill]

As far as I understand it, motorcycle riders put the knee down to get even more leverage on the bike. They are getting as much of their weight as possible to the inside of the turn.

[Surf Quebec]

At ses 2015, I saw Johnasmo ride a steep black run with both hands behind his back quite easily.

I've tried that (on a blue run) and it was more difficult than I thought. After that experience, if I'm using my hands too much it means my legs/balance is not optimum.

[softbootsurfer]

some different examples here...the question was not do you need your hands to Carve, but what Role do they play in your Carving, If you wave your hands and arms around to regain your balance as Phil has said above and in fact shows in one of his go pro pow vids. to save control, that would be Reactionary, or are you using your hands and arms to initiate the carve as many of the Carvers in this vid. are doing...actually one of my favorite Carving vids. of Sigi which I cannot find right now also shows the difference between Reactionary hand waves and using them to Initiate turns...look at Racing vids. as well and you can see the difference immediately when a turn is missed and the hands are thrown to try and regain control...I guess I did not phrase the question correctly...of course you can ride with your hands behind your back, but have you ever seen anyone run Gates like that,  run a Pipe or SBX or Banked Slalom doing that ? 

 

https://youtu.be/Nf9PYNUObZE

[piusthedrcarve]

In my opinion, having those Sigi's arms (like wings) is to check if upper body is facing forward and calm or not since they will be visible all the time. 

[Eric Brammer aka PSR]

In my opinion, having those Sigi's arms (like wings) is to check if upper body is facing forward and calm or not since they will be visible all the time. 

O.K., so you see the arms in relation to the person's balance-at-the-moment; That's good, and, yes a 'quiet' posture is usually preferred. However, as my longtime friend K. Burnham noted, it's an indicator of where you are, and, then, wish to go, Dynamically, and often a bit-in-advance of where you are. Raise the arms UP, and you'll unweight things a tad, press them down, you'll gain in pressure, again, a bit. Do this AHEAD of where you project yourself, and it flows.So, in angulation, this becomes a great visual, subconscious reference; if the hands are level to the slope, you're likely doing it right; if they're 90* to the slope, you'll need shoulder surgery sometime soon after the crash. In fore/aft Balance, it becomes a cycle of prediction Vs. recovery. I often get into obscure entangled conversations with Instructors that don't understand the fore/aft pressure (or edging!) possiblities of a snowboard, and for Hardboots, those extend even further fore/aft along the board.  So, if you watch CMC, or me, in the carvemasterchallenge of, well, awhile ago, we Lift our arms, we angulate at the shoulders, and we keep our upper torso's as upright as we can. Then, I could easily 'Ollie' out of a carve, on any moderately steep slope, a good 3+ Ft. UP, but when I did, the arms would be my balance 'hedges', and indicators, too. 

I guess it's really in the timing, then, and in the intent. I could get air between carves without the 'hands', but my timing would be off by 'that much'.... 

[softbootsurfer]

My experience on Skis running gates and the Bumps was the the same no ? get your hands behind and say Goodbye or lead with the hands toward the target to initiate...when I teach people to Snowboard, which is very infrequent by the way  I start with Either you are controlling the Board or the Board is controlling you, and the sooner you decide where you are going, the sooner you can start to Initiate what is required to get there, Skiing Slalom is a good example as often the Racer with the best Skills and Memory that day can produce the best flow through the gates, hence the best time...that video from Mattisson above Rings the Bell...Thanks Rob 

 

This Pic I took at the World Cup races here last winter shows what I am trying to say...she is Finishing one Turn, while Her Intent via Eyes, Hands and Arms is Already headed into the Next One...

Edited May 5, 2016 by softbootsailer

[JRAZZ]

Style and lift (depends on how fast you flap!)

[Neil Gendzwill]

My experience on Skis running gates and the Bumps was the the same no ? get your hands behind and say Goodbye or lead with the hands toward the target to initiate...

 

In snowboarding, if you let your hand get behind you then your upper body is out of alignment. The hands are a guideline to get your body right.  If they are flailing about they are hurting, not helping.  When I feel like I'm screwing up with my hands, I go for the old standard drill of reaching for my front boot: reach with the trailing hand on heelside, leading hand on toeside.  This promotes good angulation and a quiet, properly aligned upper body. 

[softbootsurfer]

Exactly Neil... same for Skiing, Surfing and Skating as well Eh ? either you are Leading or your equipment is...I brought Hands up before with Vision and got the same responses so to speak, with Jack coming in with your comment about reaching down for the cuff, which you need to do to Initiate a turn not after your Hips or Feet start one, by then you are in the backseat, which works if you are in a compression and allow the board to come back in under you...also known as a Backside Floater 

[Emdee406]

Personally, I find my hands invaluable in both my board sports...
For me, the concept of hip rotation is a hard one to get across and by using my arms in a particular position, 'encourages' my hips to do what they should.
I'm more of a racer than a free carver or Euro carver, so my style is a little different to most, but on snow, having my hands pretty parallel to the snow, really helps me keep my upper body in the right position, and the correct amount of angulation that I need for maximum edge hold and angle of the board in the snow.

but that's just me...

 

Toeside:

 

 

Heelside:

 

 

ps.Sorry the pics are so big!

[BlueB]

Really cool pic Phil! The upper body is out of position (doing of the GoPro pole), yet the board is executing a perfect "Dophin Turn" initiation!

[BlueB]

IMG_5584.JPG IMG_5046.JPG

 

IMG_5564.jpg

Killer form! 

Edited May 5, 2016 by BlueB