the Hands, what role do they play

[BlueB]

On good snow, when given enough time and space, while riding in perfect equilibrium, one can initiate next turn just by any body part - head, hand, you name it... But is it the most efficient way?

[Eric Brammer aka PSR]

On good snow, when given enough time and space, while riding in perfect equilibrium, one can initiate next turn just by any body part - head, hand, you name it... But is it the most efficient way?

Your Turn's end is MY Initiation Phase.  

[softbootsurfer]

Your Turn's end is MY Initiation Phase.  

 

 

OK...Yey !, I can relate to this 

 

It is also why I believe it, when I say the Turn starts at the top and ends at the bottom of a run...now that is Flow ...in my world there is no end of one turn...all the turns are one turn, the initiation of the next turn can start before the end of the last turn, IF you want it to...apology in advance to Mr. Beckmann 

 

I know, another ridiculous comment, but it is what I feel, and try to attain on each run 

Edited May 12, 2016 by softbootsailer

[Eric Brammer aka PSR]

If you leave crisp tracks that, at the change-of-edges, overlap [with no flatspot between], then you've nailed it. Literally, the front foot is starting the next turn even as the rear finishes the previous one. Many moons ago, I used the tracks we'd left to convince Peter Scala (who preceded Gordon Robbins by a season as interim Snowboard Supervisor at Okemo) that I could get a Comp I to torsionally twist and quicken the crossing from one turn to the next. If a board that fat (and for the day, relatively stiff) could change edges as fast as his Skis, the mechanism had to be that twist of the board (which Skis cannot do), and the tracks proved as much.

 

Oh, and btw, today I was (course of 24 cones, 6ft. apart, 3% grade) almost a second slower with 'hands-in-the-pockets' than when my hands could assist my efforts.  I was one my trusty Turner Hybrid (a board I helped Bobby design) using Tracker narrow-pivot Fulltrack up front, Seismic [1995 version] at the rear, and custom-shaped Flashbacks. This is a 'lively' board set-up, one that responds to quick pumping yet has huge traction, but a rather narrow stance area and no 'tail ramp' to aid thrust.  I'll keep my thoughts on this to myself, and simply refer ya'll back to Vlad's "Pink" video.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Not sure the twist has anything to do with it. Assuming a relatively slow speed of 18 kph for easy math, you are travelling 5 m/sec. So on a board with 150 cm effective edge, you've got 3/10 of a sec to get it from edge to edge to get an overlapping track. That's plenty of time.

[BlueB]

This ^

The end of the old track is the point where nose left the snow. The beginning of the new track is where the tail engaged in the new turn. As long as you do the edge change quicker then the board length to speed ratio, there would be an overlap in tracks.

The twist might help a tiny little bit, but is almost negligeable to the technique. I mean, do a cross-over instead of the cross-under or cross-trough and see how much less is the overlap, if any.

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[Keenan]

Once again the forum is over thinking things.

 

The importance of your hands:

 

Without step in bindings it is quite difficult to clip in.

The rope tow or poma lift can be very challenging.

The bitch slap is impossible.

[Eric Brammer aka PSR]

"The end of the old track is the point where nose left the snow. The beginning of the new track is where the tail engaged in the new turn. As long as you do the edge change quicker then the board length to speed ratio, there would be an overlap in tracks. 
The twist might help a tiny little bit, but is almost negligeable to the technique. I mean, do a cross-over instead of the cross-under or cross-trough and see how much less is the overlap, if any. "

 

Perhaps.  But I surmise that the Tail, finishes my previous turn, and my Nose often [not always!] is initiating the next. Watch the 'head-on' of my Madds in the  'CMC challenge' , and the board is being both flexed, and twisted at it's mid-point, with a purpose. 

 

In 1989-90 season, when I first pushed the idea that you could 'twist' a board in a turn, it was heresy. My Barfoots (161 Freestyle/151 ''twin-tip") did it well, the Sims 1800 or 1600FE, not so much, as the stance was too narrow, and boards were too stiff. The Comp I was 'ski-like', and Peter respected it's carving (vs. the 'awful skidding' snowboarders did), so I used it to demo/explain what was up. You would've thought that our simply being able to arc enough to head back UpHill would've put our turns at different level than the then-non-parabolic skis....

[Beckmann AG]

If you look at a tightrope walker, the stillness (or lack thereof) of their hands tells a lot about their ability/experience.  Frantic flailing usually indicates someone that's operating on the limits of their abilities.  

 

I imagine the same applies to snowboarding and many other sports.  

 

And if you compare the average wire walker, with the average slack-liner (in the context of simple traverse), you'll notice trends in 'where' the hands tend to go, relative to the core. The wire is guyed, the slack line is not, therefore the means of maintaining equilibrium are affected.

 

Similarly, if you compare hand/arm tendencies from the early days of hardbooting, when the stances were 'too narrow', to the present, when stances are generally 'too wide', you will see similar trends.

 

You'll note the mention in the cheetah video, of the tail being used as a 'rudder'. A little misleading, in that the tail isn't actively engaging anything other than air, and it's used to stabilize, rather than 'swing' the hind quarters. Many years ago, Merceded-Benz used a sliding mass in the chassis of their touring class race cars to enhance cornering in a similar manner. Based on the track, they could increase or decrease the mass prior to the event, and the data map would determine when and how the mass moved as required to optimize handling.

In short, the hands and arms can serve a similar purpose in snowboarding/skiing, particularly if they're not already devoted to some other frivolous task.

 

As you note, rapid hand movements are generally a sign of distress. One common, and misguided response, is to impose 'stillness'. Thereby creating the illusion of equilibrium.

 

 

 

It is also why I believe it, when I say the Turn starts at the top and ends at the bottom of a run...now that is Flow ...in my world there is no end of one turn...all the turns are one turn, the initiation of the next turn can start before the end of the last turn, IF you want it to...apology in advance to Mr. Beckmann 

 

No need to apologize on my account. Your belief system is based in part on your understanding of your movements on your mountain, and your reasoning for being there in the first place. That our viewpoints differ is largely inconsequential.

Just keep in mind that mechanical principles of biomechanics and movement are indifferent to your notions of what 'is', and what 'is not'.

[Beckmann AG]

 Many moons ago, I used the tracks we'd left to convince Peter Scala (who preceded Gordon Robbins by a season as interim Snowboard Supervisor at Okemo) that I could get a Comp I to torsionally twist and quicken the crossing from one turn to the next.

 

 

If a board that fat (and for the day, relatively stiff) could change edges as fast as his Skis, the mechanism had to be that twist of the board (which Skis cannot do), and the tracks proved as much.

 

 

If you rail a turn on one foot, the tracks overlap nicely without twist.

If you run a board through a turn transition with your hands on the bindings tilting the board and your feet walking the snow, you'll produce a track with similar overlap.

No twist.

 

Torsional distortion is a MacGuffin born of identity crisis, marketing, and the institutional need to convolute the elementary.

Edited May 14, 2016 by Beckmann AG

[Rob Stevens]

Just ride "open". The rest comes naturally.

[MikeC]

The answer really depends on the context... Are you lackadaisically carving down the hill, dropping a hand here or there?  Or are you racing but without any gates or timer?  

 

I use my hands and arms as inertia to control exit and entry into turns.  Nice thing is that my hands are connected via my arms to my shoulders.  One goes the rest follows.

[softbootsurfer]

well Mike C...this goes back to Phils Pow video where his arms are just balance weights, or to Sigi where his arms are very much involved in his future direction, and Transitions. I use my hands like I am running gates without running gates, so I personally appreciate your comment...I have never seen a Racer in any Boardsport run Gates with their hands behind their back, except in a victory lap, and since I learned to run gates on Skis I assume I brought that technique along with my Snowboarding...one misnomer perhaps is that they are extended way out which is not necessary, or if close to the body, they are not being used...apparantly, we are however, not fully aware of what is really going on, so lets just enjoy the Ride Eh ?

[lordmetroland]

Without step in bindings it is quite difficult to clip in.

The rope tow or poma lift can be very challenging.

The bitch slap is impossible.

 

and...

 

[Eric Brammer aka PSR]

If you rail a turn on one foot, the tracks overlap nicely without twist.

If you run a board through a turn transition with your hands on the bindings tilting the board and your feet walking the snow, you'll produce a track with similar overlap.

No twist.

 

Torsional distortion is a MacGuffin born of identity crisis, marketing, and the institutional need to convolute the elementary.

I'm NOT getting into the math on this, but, at the speeds of your 'proof', the board literally 'flops over' into the new edge. 

 

At the speeds I typically ride (and, I ride a bit slower on average than I did a quarter-century ago), the board, without twist involved, leaves a flat-spot that's nearly length of it's effective edge.  With a deliberate leading-foot change of edge, it's often an overlap.  And, again, this is Not something a ski can do (at least intentionally). So how does a 25cm-wide-waisted plank transfer to the new edge as quickly as a 5.5 cm waist ski, if not for a twist between the bindings? 

 

I'm not trying to 'test' what you own here, only wondering if the obvious physics are being glossed over or misrepresented. Since I was lightly involved in the LTR, I do have a bit of bias, but as such, in-the-day, the independent use of the feet on a board was not something the average Instructor was aware of. I think it's use in everyday lessons helped out many riders, at many levels of riding as well. Incorporating a concept like this in 'upper-level' riding does take precise descriptions in the timing of movement events, so it does get to be a very 'intuitive' sensation for the learner.

 

Oh, and back to 'hands' for second... Please keep in mind how our brains are wired, or watch a Native Italian talk... We all know the hands are able to be involved in many concepts our brains want to translate. So, If I tell you to move your 'core' deeper into the turn, with a bias towards stretching over the uphill edge.. Or I tell you to keep your hands level-to-the-snow, ahead of you, and just inside your planned arc...  WHICH would you 'know' how to do without thinking about it much? Which would get you to angulate correctly? Which would engage the shoulders, lats, and keep you from 'patting the Dog'?  Thus, since I rarely teach former Ballerinas, I choose to relay the movement patterns I want to see by way of what is the easiest common term, thus "your hands go Here, at This point in the turn" is a viable means to convey the posture, and timing, to get the most out a turn for many riders.   

 

I further doubt I've been doing it wrong for nearly 4 decades...

[softbootsurfer]

keep the hands ahead or die...

 

http://youtu.be/SJdYw6wn_aQ

 

 

[Neil Gendzwill]

Eric, your twist theory makes no sense to me. Assuming you are correct and are able to significantly twist the board, that only means you are making the nose contact the snow before the tail does. The track made by the nose will never overlap the previous track: you need to get the tail to the snow quickly to get overlapped tracks. Now if you are arguing that the twist helps the overall edge-to-edge transfer be faster maybe... but in my experience it is more a matter of commitment to the next turn, an overall effort to huck it over to the next edge.

[Eric Brammer aka PSR]

"Now if you are arguing that the twist helps the overall edge-to-edge transfer be faster maybe... but in my experience it is more a matter of commitment to the next turn, an overall effort to huck it over to the next edge. "

 

Neil, yes, faster edge transfer... The edge from the previous turn leaves an imprint. That imprint ends with a 30cm+- overlap of when the next edge starts, with no discernible 'flat spot' between turns. Since my stance is around 52cm, one cannot say I 'flopped it' over, or a flat-spot with the length equal or greater to my stance separation would exist. I see that exact flat spot with racers using above-the-deck riser plates.

 

Most of my boards are 'softer' amidships than many boards used by those on this forum. I think my stiffest board is an F-2 SL Speedster, or perhaps the Volkl Cross. My old Madds 158 actually was fairly compliant in the middle as I recall.

 

'Huck'?, well, If lifting and placing your front foot into the next arc is 'hucking', then, o.k., but my 'hucking' usually is leaping off a log in crossing a stream somewhere just a tad out-of-bounds, but I don't get wet often...

[softbootsurfer]

 I believe Eric is correct, that the board does twist from finishing a turn and starting into the next one...Thanks again for everyones responses...always there are differences of opinions, so nice to just be able to read what people think.

By asking about the use of your hands in your riding, does not mean they are disconnected from your feet, moving the hands forward can start a progression that includes the Core and the feet and while it is all connected, the turn initiation process at least for some can start with the hands, or you can keep them behind your back and just use your hips and or your feet as well, no right or wrong was intended as to the Style or technique you use...

Edited May 18, 2016 by softbootsailer

[Jack M]

 As long as you do the edge change quicker then the board length to speed ratio, there would be an overlap in tracks.

 

 

Correct.  If you are riding a board with say 170cm of contact length, and you complete an edge change before the board has traveled 170cm, the tracks will overlap whether the board is being twisted or not.  Simple.

 

Hands can help with balance in any sport.  Even though they don't directly have much to do with carving, telling someone where to put their hands is a quick and easy way to elicit an improvement in technique. If your hands are in the right place it's easier to have your body in the right place too.  If your hands are in the wrong place it could be that you've got bigger issues, or it could be that you're showing off. :)

 

[Eric Brammer aka PSR]

Or, in this case, it's not 'Don't Pat the Dog', " it's don't pat the chihuahua" !!

[philw]

Correct.  If you are riding a board with say 170cm of contact length, and you complete an edge change before the board has traveled 170cm, the tracks will overlap whether the board is being twisted or not.  Simple. ...

You know the movement the board goes through from an estimation of your angles before and after a transition.

 

If you have an image of the track plus an estimate of your speed along it, you can therefore compute the time taken to make the transition.

 

I think that it would be hard to tell from the snow track if the rider was on a torsionally stiff board like mine, or on one of these which twist in the turn. If you could (for example) release the nose and then the tail, I can't think that the track would look different. I guess you would need to measure the load along the length of the board through the turn somehow. The snow pattern is integrating the force, so you lose more granular data.

 

Thinking about it another way... if I'm going from one edge to the other on hard pack, it's edge-check to edge-check, and the force on the edge probably follows some sort of sinusoidal shape through that sequence. In my mind the force is always applied equally along the (Clothoid) edge, except perhaps when I shift weight very slightly backwards through the turn on some boards. Has anyone thought of how to actually profile if that's true or not?

 

Note: I'm not arguing about what's right or wrong, just curious about how to measure it.

[softbootsurfer]

the Phantom Camera Phil at 1,000,000 frames per second could catch what is really going on, mixed with a gps for speed and a drone above for track design...also we load the board by applying pressure as you of course know, but the boards flex both front to back and side to side is a player in all this, as to whether a board twist or does not twist...that Phantom camera shot would need to be from the front as well as the back to really get the Truth...and of course boards selected and the ability of the riders would make for an interesting graph eh ? 

[b0ardski]

sounds like fun, sign me up

[softbootsurfer]

OK Boardski 

 

the Camera is 17 lbs. at $100,000 without the Lens   but just imagine the shots would be so cool to see 

Edited May 24, 2016 by softbootsailer