Steep and icy conditions. Any tips?

[jatkinson]

I am about 20 days into my hardbooting career. I think I am carving reasonably on green and mellow blue runs with mixed results on steeper harder blue terrain.

This weekend I discovered the downhill course on whistler that was in pristine condition (very hard corduroy). It is a black run that is groomed very well and is not busy because it is too steep for the newbies. If you were to sit down you would slide on your butt for a fair way before stopping.

I was certainly not carving on this terrain. More sliding than clean carves, and didn't seem to be able to complete a carve without sliding out as I approached perpendicular to the fall line. I was still in control and having a lot of fun, but not getting the nice carves I was hoping for.

Is this type of terrain possible to carve without skidding around? If yes, any tips on how to handle the steeper stuff?

Cheers,

JJ

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[Neil Gendzwill]

What's the name of this run? I'm in Whistler right now and would love to give it a go.

As far as icy steep stuff goes, I don't have much success. What I try to do is the basics: commit to the turn early, angulate as much as I can to get pressure to the edge, and try to finish each turn so that my speed stays sane.

Edited February 11, 2016 by Neil Gendzwill

[jatkinson]

Go to whistler mountain. Upper and lower Dave Murray are groomed blacks. Lower was much better groomed yesterday.

Ptarmigan on the garbanzo chair was great yesterday. There was a downhill race there on the weekend so it hadn't seen much traffic.

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[Pat Donnelly]

http://www.bomberonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Carving-the-Steeps.pdf

[philw]

On the original question... well you can very occasionally get real ice and that's not possible to ride on, but you'll know when that happens as the slopes will be empty. In 30 years I only found that once (Cervinia, after a rain storm which froze). So don't worry about that.

 

You also get some slopes, sometimes corduroy, where it's too hard to be fun. So if it froze really hard and it's early morning then it can be teeth clatteringly nasty and you'll be lucky to get an edge in. You can carve but it sounds and feels uncomfortable. 

 

Or it could be that, or you could be just in need of more practice. If it's truly tough then try shorter turns and control your speed that way.

 

Was anyone else (skis or board) managing to rip it? None of that stuff is particular challenging, so if it was quiet it may be because it was out of condition. Picking slopes which are in condition is a good idea generally.

[Corey]

My clinic from 2013 about riding steeps:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OCE8hH5j5Ws

- Tip the board up high

- Do a J-turn to control speed

- Early edge pressure

Sometimes it really is too icy to carve steep stuff at whatever your current level is. Work on lower angle runs and then come back to the steeps once confident.

[BlueB]

My clinic from 2013 about riding steeps:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OCE8hH5j5Ws

Sometimes it really is too icy to carve steep stuff at whatever your current level is. Work on lower angle runs and then come back to the steeps once confident.

This ^^^

Your next best bet is to euro carve it. Body will act as an anchor and speed will be less.

Last but not least, if the slide is necessary to control the speed, slide the top part of the turn and carve from fall line to the next edge change.

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[Neil Gendzwill]

On the original question... well you can very occasionally get real ice and that's not possible to ride on, but you'll know when that happens as the slopes will be empty. In 30 years I only found that once (Cervinia, after a rain storm which froze). So don't worry about that.

You also get some slopes, sometimes corduroy, where it's too hard to be fun. So if it froze really hard and it's early morning then it can be teeth clatteringly nasty and you'll be lucky to get an edge in. You can carve but it sounds and feels uncomfortable.

It's pretty much spring conditions in Whistler right now so if it's shadowed or cooler in that section it can be setup pretty hard. Monday and Tuesday were weird, brilliant sunshine and +10 so a lot of slush/corn but in the shade higher up there was refrozen corn, hard to set a good edge when it's that crusty and rough.

[lowrider]

 I hate ice! It's winter it's cold and there is going to be ice unless you are very lucky. On top of everything that has been said perhaps one other factor is relevant.  Relax.  Sounds simple but your body reacts to certain inputs and for me ice is right up there waving all the red flags. Once you calm yourself down your muscles work better your brain can react to the in-puts your body is picking up from the board. It would be totally out of character for me not to mention that Plates help you maintain traction in less than ideal conditions and ice is one of those conditions.

[billyt.]

I guess if you moved out west you wouldn't have to deal with it that much?  For me, it is the sound you hear.  Usually after runs get skied off, I try to get to edges of trails to get better edge hold.

[Zone]

Check the Zinal videos.

EC is a blast in those conditions.

[Jack M]

Your next best bet is to euro carve it. Body will act as an anchor and speed will be less.

 

 

I strongly disagree with this advice for a new carver of 20 days.  Or anybody for that matter.

[trailertrash]

Fake it 'til yah make it braaaahhhhh

[BlueB]

I strongly disagree with this advice for a new carver of 20 days. Or anybody for that matter.

I know you would.

However, he's 20 year snowboarder.

EC is just another trick in the bag.

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[trailertrash]

The problem is he probably isn't actually carving competently on the easier terrain. He's riding the side-cut, sure, big deal. His speed is dictated by the angle of the slope not his control of the board. He's probably not controlling his speed by forcing the board to turn tighter. This is the typical progression of the new carver. They can ride the side-cut on a green trail and think they are carving. They get to a blue slope, make a few carves and get going too fast and have to skid a turn to slow down. When they get to a black they are a train wreck.

 

EC would be a Band-Aid here for lack of skills. Bad idea. Learn to ride first, save the parlor tricks for later.

[Beckmann AG]

^+1, more or less.

Riding effectively on steeper terrain, especially on hard snow, is a matter of energy management. If you cannot fluidly manipulate both edge angle, and pressure distribution (both 'net' and from tip to tail) at will, it's simply not going to happen.

The key, if there is one, is to use all of the available area of a turn to dissipate energy. On flatter terrain, you can get away with using only the bottom third. On more demanding terrain, you need to use at least 130 degrees, and on the steepest, perhaps more than 180.  And that's on good snow.

On the hard stuff, grip requires gliding, not skidding, or pivoting.

Do it right, and you almost can't discern uphill from downhill. Do it wrong, and it's just a bunch of noise.

 

 

 

However, he's 20 year snowboarder.

'20 years a slave' can be worse than nothing, if all of that time is spent developing and cementing sub-optimal movement patterns. Seasoned softbooters often bring too much 'athleticism' to the party, and need to develop an understanding that the board can do most of the work. This kind of 'detox', if you will, can take quite a bit of time, even under the best of circumstances.

More often than not, it's a matter of a rider interfering with, and not creating, 'board performance'. Hard snow is about subtlety, not 'oomph'.

 

There is more to it, of course, but these are just a few things to consider.

Edited February 12, 2016 by Beckmann AG

[BlueB]

EC would be a Band-Aid here for lack of skills. Bad idea. Learn to ride first, save the parlor tricks for later.

Yes I agree. If you reread my post I suggested it pretty much as a band aid for his current skill level. Basically I said he can go back to slightly flatter, or if he found himself on steep try to EC, or drift the top portion of the turn wich is considered propper technique.

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[AcousticBoarder]

I'm in the same boat, so everything I am about to say is what I need to work on too haha. As others have said, you need to really commit, but stay relaxed too. If you tense up, you will affect what the board is doing. Make sure you are getting nice and low, front knee should be close or at 90 degrees. Get your edge pressured early so you make nice "C" shaped turns rather than "J" shaped ones, and end traveling up the hill a but before transitioning. Plant your front heel for heel side, and drop that back knee hard for toe side. This will help control your speed.

The "on edge style" video in the video section is almost all done on blacks, so take a look there too to see some technique tips. Good luck out there!

[jtslalom]

Jatkinson,

On steep icy conditions i find myself staying much closer to my board as compared to packed powder conditions. I think that some new carvers still have a tendency to carve by ankle flex ion and simply leaning over as your board starts to carve. It is fun and relatively easy to do on most green and some blue slopes. However that same technique wont help you as the slopes get icy and steep. My experience has lead me to be even more agressive under these conditions. Concentrate on flexing your knees more and driving both of them down to the snow to make your turns. Along with ankle flex ion your knees are absolutely crucial when making high board angled turns. This will help bring that board around your turn and back across into transition.

I think a great article for you to read is "the physics of a snowboard turn" I think it is one of the best articles written and totally gives me the idea of exactly what I need to do in order to carve a good turn. Read this and definitely watch videos of GS champion. FIS skier Ted Ligety. You will so much from his videos.

Good luck

[jatkinson]

Thanks for all the feedback from everyone!  The short answer to my question seems to be yes, this terrain is carvable, but my skills aren't there yet. 

 

Planning to head back out this weekend to put this into practice.  Which of course means that there will be a pesky 2 feet of fresh snow, zero visibility and a million people all over the mountain to interfere with my progression. 

You are welcome whistler powder heads :)

 

My thoughts on the highlights of this thread so far....

 

http://www.bomberonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Carving-the-Steeps.pdf

Great link.  I hadn't found that one yet.  Thanks!

 

- Tip the board up high
- Do a J-turn to control speed
- Early edge pressure

I was trying to do this, but probably not committing enough to get the board to a high enough angle and early enough edge pressure.

 

Your next best bet is to euro carve it. Body will act as an anchor and speed will be less.

Thanks Boris, but I think I will save this until I have a bit more practice.  Perhaps you can teach me the finer points of this if we ever manage to get together for that lesson...

 

The problem is he probably isn't actually carving competently on the easier terrain. He's riding the side-cut, sure, big deal. His speed is dictated by the angle of the slope not his control of the board. He's probably not controlling his speed by forcing the board to turn tighter.

This is probably at least somewhat true, though if I pay attention to my turn shape and think about pointing the board back uphill between downhill sections I am controlling my speed without skidding on moderate terrain.  Other than more aggressive angulation/inclination what do I need to do to get the board to turn tighter.

 

Do it wrong, and it's just a bunch of noise.

I have noticed that when I feel like I am really on my game I am able to carve quite quietly on even very hard/icy slopes. When I am not at my best it seems a lot noisier.  I realize that this is probably not exactly what you meant by noise, but would be interested to hear if anyone else thinks of the sound they make while riding as an indicator of how clean the carves are.

 

Concentrate on flexing your knees more and driving both of them down to the snow to make your turns. Along with ankle flex ion your knees are absolutely crucial when making high board angled turns. This will help bring that board around your turn and back across into transition.  I think a great article for you to read is "the physics of a snowboard turn" I think it is one of the best articles written and totally gives me the idea of exactly what I need to do in order to carve a good turn.

Be more aggressive with the knees - yes.  Cool article on physics, but now my head hurts a bit.  I was competent at math and physics a very long time ago but that has all left me at some point, meaning I will have to blindly assume that the math is right and stick to accepting the principles explained in the article.

 

Cheers,

JJ  

Edited February 17, 2016 by jatkinson

[RobertAlexander]

Just try one turn and crank it as high and tight as you can make it, and totally complete it (the half circle). If you can not do one like that  where you speak of,  go back to blue/green for a while, and do it there first. There is a lot more force going on in the blacks than the blues. But you need to find out where you are first, skill wise.

[Beckmann AG]

I have noticed that when I feel like I am really on my game I am able to carve quite quietly on even very hard/icy slopes. When I am not at my best it seems a lot noisier.  I realize that this is probably not exactly what you meant by noise, but would be interested to hear if anyone else thinks of the sound they make while riding as an indicator of how clean the carves are.

Astute observations.  I will often suggest to clients that they might use audible feedback as a means of self evaluation.

 

Hard snow, and particularly water ice, will mess with your head in part due to the sounds produced. One thing you can do, that isn't too difficult, is spend time simply standing on, or sliding 'badly' across, hard surfaces. (You don't have to arc turns, you just have to be there.) The more you do this, and realize that you are still standing despite the clashing and banging, the more you condition yourself away from a tense state of being as soon as the surface gets loud.

Absence of extraneous muscle tension generally allows the board better grip on hard surfaces.

While there is some validity to being 'aggressive', this should be taken as being assertive and directed with your movements, rather than passive and lazy.  Unfortunately, it is too easy to associate 'aggression' with 'conflict'.  From there, it's a short hop to 'full body clench' and nothing good will come of that.

 

If you are inclined to read, there's also this:

http://beckmannag.com/hardboot-snowboarding/riding-ice

[Erik J]

When it's super icy I keep my upper body as quiet and compact as possible. A dip of the shoulder too far to the inside of the turn and out goes my edging.

Foam earplugs can cut down some of that brutal scraping noise, leaving your concentration ahead of you rather than under you.

Really look ahead into your turns. Lead with your eyes and head.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Other than more aggressive angulation/inclination what do I need to do to get the board to turn tighter.

 

For me the tightest arcs occur when I commit to the turn early and with some aggression.  I believe the technical term is "hucking it".  At the end of one turn, when you are straight across the fall line or even turning uphill a little bit, switching to the opposite edge so that you are carving the downhill edge produces the tightest turns for me.  It takes some real faith in your edge, especially when you are going from toeside to heelside, because you are literally throwing your body blind from one edge to the other and trusting that the edge will hold and you will not become one with the trees.  When it works it is a lot of fun.

 

If you don't let the previous turn complete, ie you are still moving downhill somewhat, then it is easy to just feather into the turn and then the most pressure occurs late in the turn.  In that situation you have wasted a good portion of the turning motion transferring the load to the new edge, so you don't really bend the board as much, you don't control the speed as much, and you end up going faster than you maybe want to.

Edited February 17, 2016 by Neil Gendzwill

[gdboytyler]

Do what Olympian, Nevin, does. The free carving demo starts around 1:45. I had to play it in slo mo to really notice how quickly he got the board inclinated, which helped him control his speed without skidding.

When I first watched the video, I thought Nevin was counter-rotating. Then, I flipped the video to show him riding as a regular foot and the counter-rotation disappeared, LOL. Are his turns considered, "cross under"?

Does anyone know if Nevin is riding a slalom board in the free carve section? The board looks to be on the short side or maybe he's tall?