Seeking Advice: Is it reasonable to move from F2 Silberpfeil to Kessler KST?

[RRrider]

Looking for some advice here. I noticed during the olympics that the state of carving boards has moved on from when I bought my last board, and I'm considering upgrading. I'm looking for some guidance as to whether or not how I'm thinking about it makes sense.

Present Situation: I have a 2006 F2 Silberpfeil with TD3 bindings plus I have a 2000 Prior all mountain (detuned carving) board with TD1 bindings. I'm 5'7" and about 150lbs. Both boards are in the 156 - 158 range (I forget exactly which is which). I have been riding since late 80's, carving on a hard boot set up since early 90's, and am pretty good but by no means expert. I don't live near the mountains, so I tend to do a couple of trips a year. I like to carve, but often ride when there are others about so I tend to make lots of tight turns instead of super high speed GS turns. I also ride with a lot of skiers so I sometimes go anywhere including over the odd mogul or two. But clearly on the carving board, I am optimising for carving. I have no intention of racing; however, I ride a race spec motorcycle and never intend to race motorcycles either :D

Potential upgrade: I'm really intrigued by everything I read about the Kessler KST with the plate system and I'm thinking of upgrading my F2 board. For my weight, the bomber website recommend the 156cm board (55-75kg). This smaller length fits my secondary use case of all mountain cruising even if it detracts from high speed carving.

My logic for considering the upgrade is that the technology has really changed since 2006, and I believe on the new setup, I'd be able to carve easier, enjoy the improved edge grip and shock absorber effect provided by the plate system (my older knees in particular could enjoy the shock absorption), and yet still be able to do what I presently do on the F2.

So what do you think? Make sense? Am I missing something? Should I be thinking about something else? TIA!

Sidenote: The other board that has caught my attention is the Donek FC Metal 163, but it seems less different than my F2 and so maybe less worthwhile and maybe not as good as the kessler.

Edited March 2, 2014 by RRrider

[philw]

I rode an f2 SL 163 at 62kgs and that was a hot board I had to push to get the best from. I switched to a 156 K SL which is easier to ride and works at a broader speed range. It has much less "rebound", which is a shame, but it's a good trade because everything else is good.

I ride resorts fast but legal, including moguls etc on that board. It works from walking speed up to faster than is safe. I can't see you would want a plate for one of these though, and standard F2 race bindings are my choice.

When I first switched, I found I was riding faster than I felt because of the damping.

Most people here rode much bigger boards on what they call "carving" terrain. On my Kessler, the whole resort is my carving terrain, not just the motorways.

[Unicorn Poop]

Get the Kessler. Don't even second guess it.

[snowmatic]

ride faster - ride smoother - ride effortless - ride KESSLER

(even if now on Kessler The Cross Light on picture / not on The Alpine)

Kessler the Alpine didn't give You the same ride like F2 Silberpfeil. It's different!

Assign the length to the recommend weight, body length and riding preferences!

Plate is not a must. Try it out at first without a plate.

Ask Kessler and Bomber for compatibility of Kessler 156, maybe 162 to TD3 bindings, or ask for recommended bindings.

You ride Intec's or bails with lever?

[RRrider]

I ride intec. I like the easy step in.

As as for trying without plates first, having never ridden on plates, I wouldn't know how to compare or what I was missing. Or is the feeling, at this board length, the plates won't make much difference?

thx!

[Corey]

I've ridden about 7 different plates and currently own a Bomber Boilerplate - and I vote no plate to start. I generally prefer the feeling of a board without the plate, but they really do make it easier to ride in choppy conditions. You can always add a plate later if you want.

If you can afford it, the Kessler will be awesome! However, we don't know your riding ability. I'm somewhere between an intermediate and expert rider, and I couldn't really feel a huge difference between a 182 Coiler NSR and a 185 Kessler. For me, I'd rather buy the Coiler and a great set of bindings for less money than the bare Kessler. Or whatever brand gets you excited!

Kesslers used to be less durable than some other boards because they compromise certain things in order to be as fast as humanly possible in a race course. I don't know if that's still true, but that's not a trade off I want or need!

Good luck in your choice! There are very few 'bad' boards out there, it's all about finding the one that jives with your riding style.

[Puddy Tat]

Ok I've never ridden a Kessler, but you could consider a Coiler NSR built to your weight in whatever length you want. The cost would be much cheaper (probably 60% of the cost of the Kessler)

I'm also not a racer however I compared my 185cm NSR to a Kessler at NES this year and the overall shape of the board was close enough that I couldn't really see the difference. Yes I realize that what's going on in the board makes a ton of difference. But Jack's GS article "The new hotness" indicated that at least a few years ago NSRs and Kesslers were fairly close. While I'd love to have a Kessler/Oxsess, etc, as a freecarver I'm not sure I need the few extra "horsepower" that those boards have.

The downside is you would be one Bruce's build list and wouldn't be getting the board until next season.

Dave

[RRrider]

I've ridden about 7 different plates and currently own a Bomber Boilerplate - and I vote no plate to start. I generally prefer the feeling of a board without the plate, but they really do make it easier to ride in choppy conditions. You can always add a plate later if you want.

If you can afford it, the Kessler will be awesome! However, we don't know your riding ability. I'm somewhere between an intermediate and expert rider, and I couldn't really feel a huge difference between a 182 Coiler NSR and a 185 Kessler. For me, I'd rather buy the Coiler and a great set of bindings for less money than the bare Kessler. Or whatever brand gets you excited!

Kesslers used to be less durable than some other boards because they compromise certain things in order to be as fast as humanly possible in a race course. I don't know if that's still true, but that's not a trade off I want or need!

Good luck in your choice! There are very few 'bad' boards out there, it's all about finding the one that jives with your riding style.

Thanks! So regarding plates, tell me if I'm misreading this, but what I am taking away from this discussion is that for carving through bumpy ice, the plates really help absorb the chop and keep an edge (i.e. in the ruts on a race course) but the tradeoff is you have less direct feel of the board, and are able to maneuver the board a little less easily on other terrains. Therefore for my more all mountain riding, going without the plates (at least at first) probably makes sense.

sounds like given their quality, going Kessler is a no lose proposition (except of course for price and durability :)). It may be a little harder to ride initially as it sounds like the downside of the tremendous carving grip it has, is it is harder to do "slop" (e.g. non carving sliding around, lazy transitions, etc). How about tuning the board? Can any old shop tune these boards, or do you have to be really particular about who touches the board? I'm assuming that waxing and edging is waxing and edging and no special expertise is required?

I notice you are riding a much larger board than I am! Do you go through black moguls on a 185? wow!

Really appreciate everyone's help. I'm very close to giving Bomber a bit more of my hard earned money!

[Corey]

You've got it right, from my point of view. ;) Everyone has different tastes. Plates are a bit of a filter that remove some feedback. Each user decides if they want that feedback or not. A loose analogy is mountain-bike suspension. One without suspension feels more 'spirited' than one with, but when there are lots of bumps you'd rather just relax on a full-suspension bike and ride over the chop. If the groom is good, I'd rather leave the plate off. I haven't ridden enough off-piste with the plate to form an opinion, but the extra 4(-ish) lbs really sucks on the chairlift and for jump turns. At SES this year with lots of fresh snow that got bumped-out by noon, a plate was freaking awesome.

The modern race (and race-inspired) boards are completely happy slipping as needed, and transitioning from sliding to carving and back again without much drama. The only concern is that race boards are usually a little stiffer for a given rider weight, but again it seems that modern stuff isn't as stiff.

Haha, I avoid moguls like the plague most of the time. I survived (and even had some fun) in some soft moguls on a blue run with my 167 AM board at SES. Later in the week I rode similar moguls with a 182 with a plate - still survived but it wasn't fun! Keep in mind that I've got about 1 hour total time in moguls and have MUCH to learn...

On board length: If I were only allowed one board, it'd be a shorter board. It's way more fun to ride a 162 slalom-type board on wide open runs than it is to ride a 185 GS-type board on narrow runs! GS boards suck on narrow stuff, unless you are quite skilled and can bend them into tight radii. Even that gets tiring pretty quick.

[Unicorn Poop]

The difference between no plate and plate isn't as big as I think you're thinking. It's not going to be this wonder product that smooths out the bumps like full suspension compared to a rigid mountain bike. Since you ride motorcycles, the difference is more along the lines of having your damping turned up as hard as possible (no plate) vs. where they should be (plate). You may not notice a difference if you're just not skilled enough to know what to feel for or if you don't push it hard, but you will feel some difference. Either way, a plate isn't going to save your knees, so don't think it's going to ride like a Cadillac with the plate.

As far as the length of the board goes, don't be afraid of something a little longer than what you're on. Unless you're married to the bunny hill at some 400' landfill with a population density rivaling India, a longer length isn't going to kill you and be this unmaneuverable plank of wood that just drops straight down the fall line and nothing else. Here's some first hand experience for ya: I have a 1.68 Kessler without plates and F2 bindings and a 1.85 Kessler with Hangl plates and F2 bindings. I'm 170 lbs. and I can bend that 1.68 inside itself. Linked C turns with two or three cat widths worth of groomers? No problem! Comparatively, the 1.85 is not all that much harder to turn going slow. I'm talking about getting off the lift, working my way through lap traffic on a cat walk (one cat wide trail), slowing it down and avoiding the lawn ornaments at the bottom of the run, ect... With the addition of about 3- 5 MPH, the 1.85 is just as easy to bring around as the 1.68. That's where the similarities end, though. The 1.68 is a very playful, friendly board that's cool doing whatevs. The 1.85 is a monster and it'll let you know in no uncertain terms that it does not have time for your nonsense. Anway... Kesslers are all decambered at both ends, so their running length when not railed is much shorter than their overall length. I haven't measured it but I believe the running length (when flat on the ground or being skidded at low speed) of the 1.68 to be around 125cm and the 1.85 probably has around 140cm. They act like short boards when you want them to. I also have a 196cm Coiler that's fully cambered and acts like a 196cm board all the time, and that thing is just a nightmare to turn outside of a carve. I have to carry so much speed to get it to skid around to a hockey stop, it's scares the hell out of anyone in my line of fire.

Keep in mind, too... You're right in the middle of the weight range for the 1.71 Kessler as well. I haven't ridden one of these, but have talked with someone who's 150 lbs and who has ridden both a 1.71 and a 1.68, and he said the 1.71 is much easier to turn than the 1.68.

Now, as far as the plate goes... I've only ridden my Hangl plates and nothing else, so I don't know if the BP is any different than this, but I heard all the same things you did about plates and was expecting some wet noodle edgeless turd at low speeds and the feeling of floating above the snow as I charged through 6" chop at high speed. Neither was the case. I can still pedal the board at low speed and still feel everything at high speed. Where the real difference is, is the weight. I've yet to throw it on a scale, but I suspect that between the board, plates, binding and boot, I have about 40 lbs. hanging off my leg if I don't use the foot rest. That crap gets real old real fast, and my foot is always numb by the top if I don't have a foot rest.

Either way, get a Kessler, no question. If you ever get up to Utah before you get one, you're welcome to spend a day on my 1.68, and I'll see if I can find a local with a 1.71 for you to try as well.

Edited March 3, 2014 by Unicorn Poop

[Puddy Tat]

... So regarding plates, tell me if I'm misreading this, but what I am taking away from this discussion is that for carving through bumpy ice, the plates really help absorb the chop and keep an edge (i.e. in the ruts on a race course) but the tradeoff is you have less direct feel of the board, and are able to maneuver the board a little less easily on other terrains.

Therefore for my more all mountain riding, going without the plates (at least at first) probably makes sense.

A couple of things on this. If you are riding all-mountain, I wouldn't get a stiff slalom board. I'd look into something a touch wider, softer, and more forgiving. I personally ride AM on a 171cm, Donek Incline, which does jump turns down double black steeps, launches stuff, rides pow and lets me put my hip on the snow when I'm back on groom when I'm travelling within the "speed envelope" of the board. Outside of that speed envelope the board starts to chatter and requires alot more attention to keep from blowing out. Corey is using a 167cm Coiler AM VSR for this type of riding. His board is more carve oriented than my Donek and will outperform it at speed.

If you are more carve than AM then I'd consider a carve or freecarve deck instead of an AM board. Personally most of my current purely "carve-oriented" decks are Coilers (Schtubby , NSR). The Schtubby is getting relegated to freecarve these days as I'm starting to ride outside its performance envelope much of the time as my riding ability and the speed I'm able to carry comfortably through turns increases.

Plates. I've only ever ridden the Donek AF Plate which is a semi-isolation plate. I just finally got it this year and as such this is the only plate I've had a chance to ride. Personally I didn't notice any of the differences that people here are mentioning about riding full isolation plates. That is to say "Lack of board feedback", "the turns get bigger", "you need to modify your riding style", the board is difficult to skid". I put the plate on my 185cm NSR expecting things to be a complete sh!tshow, and noticed "nothing". That is to say there was no change in riding style, no more difficult to skid, the turns were just as tight or tighter, however bumpy snow became smooth and I was able to carve through it at higher speeds and with much greater control. While the plate was on I skid turned the 185cm NSR down "Old T-Bar" at Sunshine; which is so named because it is the cutline for a removed T-bar lift. It is perhaps slighty wider than a narrow lane of traffic. So the Donek AF plate doesn't, for me appear to, have the issues I've heard of, and mentioned above. This being said I can't speak to full isolation plates like the Bomber plate, Donek A or F plates, VIST, Coiler etc..

Cheers,

Dave

Edited March 3, 2014 by Puddy Tat

[BlueB]

Silberpheil = fun, on propper groomed run. Now, which generation? The older ones were more of a classic shape, radial cut, cambered boards. New ones are decambered nose, and some variable radius. I actually liked the old one better for tip-and-rip style. TD3, especially SI is a bit of overkill for your body spec, but ok on a narrow board.

4WD, fun and versatile, doesn't excell in anything. TD1 SI is completely wrong choice of binding for an AM board and your weight. I'd get the softest plastic plate binding you can find and standard bails, for whatever AM/freeride board you might get.

Kessler SL is very versatile. It can replace both boards of yours, to some extent. The factory spec will probably be too stiff for you for real AM ride (bumps, chop, not too deep fresh)... I'd use medium flex bindings.

It would do more turn shapes then Silber, but would be less predictable.

No sub plate, is my recommendation.

Your options:

1) Keep what you've got, get much softer bindings for 4WD to explore new possibilities.

2) Keep Silber, replace 4WD with a more AM suited board, like ATV, Proto, Nomad, etc. with softest bindings.

3) Replace both boards with Kessler SL and softer bindings, get a pow board for soft days.

...

4) Become full blown gear junkie, like lots of us here ;)

Have fun.

[lowrider]

If you are the kind of person that wants the latest greatest bling just keep spending your money. If you are content with a board that rides well in the conditions you usually ride and want to improve the ride-ability in less than ideal conditions screw on a plate and be prepared to be amazed at how it will enhance your present ride. One fact that doesn't change is that a plate will enhance the properties of any board in less than ideal conditions no matter how much you paid for it. Perhaps the perfect board does exist but if you haven't found it a plate will improve your present boards ride. From glass only boards to the latest metal or carbon fibre. Ride-ability under all conditions is what makes a board your favorite a plate will help you get there.

[BlueB]

Maybe it's more fair to say the plate will improve carvability in crappier conditions? At the same time, it would increase the weight you have to drag around and injury risk in crashes.

For all-mountain / freeride / pow, plate is counter-productive. For those, you ride the terrain, rather then plowing throug it.

For the record, I'm an amateur plate builder, myself. I have ridden Apex, Vist, Hangl, Plan-B (of my own design/make) and various non-sliding risers. I would never claim a plate will improve rideability in all conditions...

[lowrider]

Maybe it's more fair to say the plate will improve carvability in crappier conditions? At the same time, it would increase the weight you have to drag around and injury risk in crashes.

For all-mountain / freeride / pow, plate is counter-productive. For those, you ride the terrain, rather then plowing throug it.

For the record, I'm an amateur plate builder, myself. I have ridden Apex, Vist, Hangl, Plan-B (of my own design/make) and various non-sliding risers. I would never claim a plate will improve rideability in all conditions...

The nuance of my wording was pretty specific perhaps the placement of periods requires improvement. "Ride-ability under all conditions is what makes a board your favorite a plate will help you get there". In those instances when your un-plated ride doesn't do the job the use of a plate will "Improve the ride-ability in less than ideal conditions." You spoiled west coast cherry picking riders are too touchy ! The plates I make are lower than anything commercially available and lighter as well so perhaps I'm tainted in my opinion. After buying a lift ticket I tend to stay till I can no longer stand up so if I am not riding perfect conditions I am at least trying to keep riding all day long. A plate makes it easier to do that if it's light and low. I agree with your statement Blue B. If you re-read mine I think I was saying the same thing.

[kieran]

is there not one of the california lot who has a silberpfeil carbon? i do seem to recall reading a most effusive account of its ride characteristics.

[Unicorn Poop]

You spoiled west coast cherry picking riders are too touchy !

I moved out here about 8.5 years ago from Vermont, and I couldn't agree with you more. I still laugh whenever someone says it's icy out here. That having been said, there have been a few mornings where I've thought, "it's a touch hard... I'll go have a beer in the lodge and wait a few hours for it to warm up." West Coast problems, right?

[RRrider]

So now I'm thinking about board length. As I'm middle of range for a 156, and I'm the very bottom of the weight range for the next size up, and I do like to go through moguls, I rejected going for a longer board. But the comments above about longer boards, and especially that my weight range is right in the middle for a 171 really caught my attention. HOw can this be?

below is the table from bomber for kessler KST board (it didn't cut and pastes into this HTML editor very well), but it suggests that the 156 and 171 are appropriate for 55Kg - 75KG (or 80KG), but that the in between boards are for heavier people. Can this be true? really? I kind of thought you had to be heavier to ride a longer board. Why would a 168 be for a 65KG person but add a little bit to 171 and suddenly a 55KG person is OK? Shouldn't this be a linear, or at least a continuous, relationship. I don't understand the ups and downs? Does my question make sense?

http://bomberonline.3dcartstores.com/Kessler-KST_p_180.html

[Puddy Tat]

You are taking about two essentially different boards.

The shorter board (156cm) is a slalom sized board built with a smaller sidecut radius (SCR) to make tight turns.

The longer board (171cm) is a GS sized board built with a larger SCR in order to make larger turns and run at higher speeds.

Hence boards designed for two different applications will have weight ranges based on their respective length for that application.

If you want to make tight quick turns all day long get a slalom board. If you want to lay into a turn at speed, have a coffee and read a newspaper before you have to stand up, get a GS board. :-D

Dave

[Unicorn Poop]

I would like to respectfully disagree, Dave.

The way I see it, SCR has no bearing on a boards turning ability once angulated to the point where the waist is off the snow. At that point, it's all tip and tail and the turn radius will be dictated by stiffness of the board in relation to the weight of the rider. Compare the 1.68 with a weight range of 65-95kg to the 1.71 with a weight range of 55-80kg, and it's apparent that the 1.71 is not as stiff. At low lean angle, the smaller SCR of the 1.68 will have it making smaller turns, but with the same 68kg rider (RRider's weight), the 1.71 will turn inside the 1.68 when railed because he will be able to flex the board more.

RR- The reason for the 1.71 having a lower weight range than the 1.68 is because of what Dave said- slalom vs. giant slalom. What wasn't mentioned was that the 1.68 is a SL board designed for a heavy rider, while the 1.71 is a GS board designed for a light rider. Think of Kessler's alpine lineup like this- the 1.50- 1.68 is their slalom line, and the 1.71- 1.85 is their giant slalom line. Despite being a GS board, you would most likely find the 1.71 easier to handle than the 1.68 because it is not as stiff. An easy way to get an idea how stiff a board is, is to look at the weight range. Keep in mind though, weight range is suggested. If you were to get on the 1.68 and drop 6kg over the summer, the board won't magically turn into a brick. You'll still get it to bend around just fine. It won't be optimum and may give you a hard time in adverse conditions, but will still be quite rideable. The thing you have to remember is these Kesslers are light years beyond what you're riding now and will make you a better rider within a couple runs. I started out on some POS 10- 15 year old Nitro and fought that thing every step of the way; turns were a matter of survival, not progression. I hopped on the 1.68 and made almost a season's worth of progress in literally five turns. Since you're an infrequent rider, something softer is in order. Due to their decambered design and previously mentioned firsthand experience with several Kesslers and other traditionally cambered boards, I recommend the 1.71. And hey, if you don't like it, you can always sell it to me. I'm always looking to add another. ;)

[BlueB]

Let's not confuse the issues. Leave the type of turn where the board is decambered beyond the "clean carve", out of the equation. The Sl board designed for a 60kg rider will carve a tighter turn then GS board designed for the same 60kg rider, period.

157 is an SL board.

171 is a GS board.

168 is neither, it is the only freecarving board in Kessler stock shapes. I got told it's stiffer then 171.

[BlueB]

I agree with your statement Blue B. If you re-read mine I think I was saying the same thing.

Do we agree then that a board would be more carvable in poor conditions with a plate, while it would be more ridable in all conditions without a plate?

[lowrider]

Do we agree then that a board would be more carvable in poor conditions with a plate, while it would be more ridable in all conditions without a plate?

Can't necessarily agree with second point. Lets try more rideable in" good "conditions. If you would be interested in trying an experiment with one of your plates and design it to hinge and articulate in the middle you would come up with what I believe is a plate that is better than " any board without a plate in all conditions." The crucial trait is to make a plate that pedals like a board without a plate. I can't see it commercially available because of the complicated construction The tricky part is to make it both low profile and light. I have built a prototype but it in neither light or as low as my other plates. In the conditions I ride a plate it is more advantageous than to ride without. I'm jealous of you and all west coast riders my three kids included.

[lonbordin]

Can't necessarily agree with second point. Lets try more rideable in" good "conditions. If you would be interested in trying an experiment with one of your plates and design it to hinge and articulate in the middle you would come up with what I believe is a plate that is better than " any board without a plate in all conditions." The crucial trait is to make a plate that pedals like a board without a plate. I can't see it commercially available because of the complicated construction The tricky part is to make it both low profile and light. I have built a prototype but it in neither light or as low as my other plates. In the conditions I ride a plate it is more advantageous than to ride without. I'm jealous of you and all west coast riders my three kids included.

I'm going to side with lowrider here... I ride in crappy conditions and I can do so all day with the plate (Bomber 4mm). If I rode in the west it would be different... but alas I do not.

OP should try to upgrade to a smaller board made by a reputable manufacture.

Edited March 4, 2014 by lonbordin
forgot about OP

[BlueB]

LR, what I'm trying to say is that in the conditions where I do not want to carve, or carve the edge, I want direct snow feel, direct input, minimum weight and setup that's rather "giving". Plates and risers I tried so far do not give me that...

Yesterday I came down a double black, just once, no one else on the run. Slope had old snow, ice in the patches, medium sized moguls, crunch and death cookies, semi covered by about 3" of wet fresh, small avalanche marked down the midle of the run. I was on ElDIablo with super soft bindings. With any of the plates I tried before, or with a racier board, I'd have to sit and cry. Lightly equiped as I was, I was able to make it down and still keep self respect.

One needs to distinguish between trying to carve a board at every expense and trying to ride a board in most efficient manner. Very often it is better to ride the terrain features, slarve if you needed to slarve, slash if you needed to slash, olie if you needed to olie, switch if I needed to switch... Plate doesn't help me there.

Edited March 4, 2014 by BlueB