bobdea Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 How would you avoid getting banned from the hill, for stealing the business from their school? you talk to them first! lots of coaches operate with full consent of the resort..... particularly when you're offering stuff that's a little out of the mainstream you're all set. for things like a camp the resorts like the business, they'd rather have you there than at the place down the road. if said resort offers such instruction then it's a little harder but even then the resorts will give people a lot of leeway. call it a intro to snowboard racing camp or something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philw Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 MEDIA ... Snowboarding needs a new type of magazine. ... It also should be inclusive of skiing, maybe with an illustrated serial of ... least, it should have a fair dose of mockery of the jibbing culture. ...media fuss would work to the benefit of it's promotion. It should have an internet counterpart too, probably combined with a forum. There are a couple of things in there which I like a lot, although I'm not sure a magazine is necessary to pursue them: Get closer to skiing, because that's where you'll take people from, and that's probably where skate-snowboarding is losing people to. You're simply not going to get beginners into alpine. So your target is jaded skate-snowboarders and skiers. This market is less price-sensitive too. Take the p***. You can't fight huge marketing budgets on equal terms, but when they're selling something which is inherently lame it's an obvious weakness. Facebook works brilliantly for some snow-related businesses I'm aware of (eg cat, heli, and GoPro). You need cool video, and just a little viral stuff will go a long way. I think that's a better approach than a magazine. How about some sort of reader-moderated facebook/ blog type thing, which would be a bunch of stuff contributed by people here about the sport? Ok, perhaps it's a lot of effort. Today, if I type "carve snowboard" into google, this site doesn't get on the first page (my country). Maybe it is possible to do better than that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueB Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 0 interest from our local ones, to put any logistic or financial support in the prep phase. No access to their web site either, even if I prepped the promo material. On a recent 3 hour project, they even managed to find a way to deny 66% of the bonus due for literally landing the business to their lap. One of the concerns that resort had, on the conversations few years ago, is that if we (me) promoted the alpine too much, thy would have to carry the alpine stuff in rentals or deal with the people inquiring about it... Please do not quote this post - I'll probably delete it later on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beckmann AG Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 Quote: Originally Posted by Beckmann AG In other words, bake your own pie rather than fighting for a slice of pie that has shriveled and grown stale. No disrespect meant here, but to just sit back and let things happen as they will have not gotten big companies like *Burton* and others where they are now. if you don't market to new people, your passion will never grow. To sit back and just let what happens, happen, is what we've been doing. Trying to be innovative, and with latent attitudes as this, we'll go nowhere and eventually die our own death - because it's what we created. this is the attempt to make an effort, to change that destiny. It's the ONLY way it's going to happen. Yes, we have a lot of advocates out there and as I said they are invaluable to the sport, but it's the industry that needs to stand up and do something to make it grow. THAT'S what I am addressing. You misunderstand. Though the ingredients may need tweaking, Bomber is already baking a better pie. Participant numbers in the ski industry have been essentially flat for what, the last 30 years? Skiers, softbooters, et al participate because they identify, in one way or another, with a given mode of glisse. If they want to carve a turn, they will. Be there to support that interest. I am not suggesting that 'you' sit back and do nothing. Clearly, Bomber industries is making an effort to innovate and provide a quality product, and runs events to involve and encourage the end user. Obviously, you are using a different business model than Burton, as your market is a different market. Burton has chosen to sell quantity rather than quality. Bomber has chosen the opposite route. The industry as a whole will do nothing to aid you until they have something to gain, and they are clearly preoccupied with gathering the low-hanging fruit borne of the 'dumbing down' of skiing and snowboarding. Certainly, you need to 'market to new people'. Make sure those 'new' people, are also the 'right' people. Slow growth is solid growth. Rapid growth is simply pulp. I think you probably need a generation shift... a new generation needs to re-discover snowboarding, to realize that you don't have to be a skater, to feel that you don't have to be burnt off by skiers. The shift began about three years ago, at least here in my backyard. I've got knee-high children gawking at my gear, doing comparative analysis with their own boards/skis, and claiming most emphatically, that what I have is 'cool'. With each passing year, the new hired instructors are less likely to sneer at my rig, and more likely to ask insightful questions about how to ride better. Taking the 'red pill' is in vogue. I casually passed a parked pack of park punks from the local academy this afternoon, and by the lift base, at least one of them asked, with obvious enthusiasm "Can we carve with you? You can seriously rip on that thing!" (Heck, I'm merely competent). The youth is aware, and they take notice. Make it accessible, and they will partake. Particularly if your offering is a bit 'edgy' or rebellious. Old boards, used boards, new boards; ski boots, soft boots, moon boots, it matters not. The sensation of a carved turn isn't exclusive to the latest technology. Quote: Originally Posted by BlueB How would you avoid getting banned from the hill, for stealing the business from their school? Of course you would probably want/have to do this through the resort and become an employee. I could do that here at Sugarloaf, as I know people and used to instruct here, or Beckman could if he wanted to.Although I can imagine a way to do it without going through the resort, only if the resort does not have any hardboot instruction already. This is a no-brainer. Stay in on-mountain lodging at Sugarloaf, get a free lesson for each nights stay. Can be touchy during busy periods, or if you are flying solo, but if you have a small group, and I know you are coming, you'll be accommodated. Hardcore in the morning, novices in the afternoon, compare notes in the bar. What could be simpler? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc H Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 For a while people in liftline were asking me if I was on a Teleboard. Got that on Monday and Tuesday while at the Loaf. All I say to them is "It is what it is" When you thinking of doing the carve camp thing? Im interested in attending. P.S. Got my Boiler plate, rode it this weekend. All I can say is I really love the thing. Helped my heel side out matter of fact. Its a great toy/tool to have. @ Fin, thankyou very much for producing such a great product. Now back to the topic of this thread..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kieran Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 This is a no-brainer. Stay in on-mountain lodging at Sugarloaf, get a free lesson for each nights stay. Can be touchy during busy periods, or if you are flying solo, but if you have a small group, and I know you are coming, you'll be accommodated. Hardcore in the morning, novices in the afternoon, compare notes in the bar. What could be simpler?combine this with accessible gear, and you'll convert or import many peoples to the sport. readily available secondhand (affordable) gear is probably the best way to go here. if you could maintain stock, offer to sell them the board / bindings / boots they learned with.as you've said though. who would cover that cost? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emdee406 Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 With years of experience on British snowboard programs, I am involved in a pilot for a new TV Travel Show and there will be a fair amount of actual riding in it. The Director is a former Full-Cert Instructor wanting to show ALL types of riding. I think he will allow me to slip some Alpine riding in there. We will always talk about the kit we use and I have a big contribution to the script. Fingers crossed we can interest either the Travel Channel/Discovery and if so, it could enlighten several million people who think snowboarding starts and ends with the "Ginger Ninja/Flying Tomato"... I will keep you posted. Martin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kieran Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 The Director is a former Full-Cert Instructor wanting to show ALL types of riding. I think he will allow me to slip some Alpine riding in there. We will always talk about the kit we use and I have a big contribution to the script.so thats why you snapped up the aggression stealth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xy9ine Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 A bit of ribbing: I'm sure you have been notified of at least last 2 WES. Did you show up? ;) We'll do few more session at Whistler this spring, more then likely on Sundays. Just a heads-up. i've been juggling babies; opportunities to desert them for a full day are scarce. hopefully i can make something happen this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelle Posted February 25, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 Maybe we should start wearing sparklers on our helmets and build some huge kickers in the middle of a PGS course? HA HA you are almost there Ace! Huge kickers in the middle of a PGS course - isn't that boardercross? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelle Posted February 25, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 Facebook works brilliantly for some snow-related businesses I'm aware of (eg cat, heli, and GoPro). You need cool video, and just a little viral stuff will go a long way. I think that's a better approach than a magazine. How about some sort of reader-moderated facebook/ blog type thing, which would be a bunch of stuff contributed by people here about the sport? Ok, perhaps it's a lot of effort. Is your point that a FB page would be different than BOL because "your" friends and "my" friends would see it and get more exposure? I totally agree with this, and that's why I started a FB page. However, up until the SES I didn't have a lot to put up there. Now I have some content and would love to put some pics and videos there so people, and their friends, can see them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelle Posted February 25, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 Although I can imagine a way to do it without going through the resort, only if the resort does not have any hardboot instruction already. Careful. I have known people to be banned for life from Vail resorts for teaching without consent. We would definitely be smart to let them know about it. However, for liability reasons I don't know if they would let us "teach" something officially. I guess it would depend on the resort. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelle Posted February 25, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 With years of experience on British snowboard programs, I am involved in a pilot for a new TV Travel Show and there will be a fair amount of actual riding in it. The Director is a former Full-Cert Instructor wanting to show ALL types of riding. I think he will allow me to slip some Alpine riding in there. We will always talk about the kit we use and I have a big contribution to the script. Fingers crossed we can interest either the Travel Channel/Discovery and if so, it could enlighten several million people who think snowboarding starts and ends with the "Ginger Ninja/Flying Tomato"... I will keep you posted. Martin Martin, this is awesome. Let me know if I can help in any way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Ace* Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 If anyone has Netflix on demand pull up a program called 'School of Surf, Red Bull Riders Cup'. This is exactly what the sport needs! Watching it now and getting inspired big time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelle Posted February 25, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 One other thought, if you think the demo tent idea is good, has Bomber and Donek ever considered building a low cost demo board that would be able to handle the basics and would appeal to a large audience, 160 - 166cm (not much larger than a freeride board), all-mountain capable. Does anyone (Jack) remember the Toaster? It was designed to be exactly this - a low cost binding that someone could get as a "beginner" binding to get started. It was a pain to make and didn't last long - I couldn't even find a pic of it. We then got the XBones, F2, and Ibex all meant to be a lower cost binding that would give people options. This is also how the Pilot started. A long while ago we had an industry meeting discussing exactly this point - how to get people into the sport as entry levels? Sean came up with the Pilot and it has not only taken off, but lasted. Awesome job! But it is definitely one of a kind. Boots are the other problem, as there are so few companies making them and they are all European, so getting them to do something different will NOT be easy. Also, the molds are very expensive so they would have to use existing molds for the boots with "cheaper" functions. All said, yes i agree that to get more people involved, we need better entry level gear. GOOD POINTS GUYS!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 I'm drifting from the original question. I'm not sure I can envision crowds like the one pictured forming to watch alpine events. It would take a lot of marketing money to make that happen. We're not going to get that out of thin air. It will take knowing people in high places. Although there was that Jeep King of the Mountain thing that had what I called "Super-Y" which was half PGS and half BX. Funny side story - I saw one on TV where Chris Klug won (I think beating Jasey Jay in the final) and Picabo Street was the commentator. She all but licked Klug's face during her interview after he won. Toaster - yeah, I handled one at Sunny Breeze. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 This is a no-brainer. Stay in on-mountain lodging at Sugarloaf, get a free lesson for each nights stay. Can be touchy during busy periods, or if you are flying solo, but if you have a small group, and I know you are coming, you'll be accommodated. Hardcore in the morning, novices in the afternoon, compare notes in the bar. What could be simpler? Yes Erik! You just need to market it! He's talking about Sugarloaf's ski-n-stay packages, which include a free "group" lesson each day. But if you want to do alpine snowboarding, guess what, you are getting a private with Beckman! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emdee406 Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 so thats why you snapped up the aggression stealth. Got it in one! I'm planning to wear a fluoro one piece and a pair of original Raichle boots too... I might even throw in the odd carve! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emdee406 Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 Martin, this is awesome. Let me know if I can help in any way. I'll keep you posted, thanks for the offer. One thing we could do is refer people to the Forum as a way to get more info and yes, affordable equipment is a key thing. We have the same issue with Slalom Skateboarding, really expensive kit (relatively speaking), and an older user group. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pop0tart Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 I am 23 and I literally have hundreds of reasons why I think carving will NEVER catch on. The only hope for the sport to get media attention, at least in my opinion, is for the sport to have a young American poster child who can win gold in the PGS, and then get arrested a few times, have tabloid photos (if he/she can make tabloids, that is) of him/her smoking weed, and then have all of America watch to see if that person can repeat olympic gold 4 years later. Basically, we need someone along the lines of Michael Phelps, Bode Miller, or at least Lindsey Jacobellis. As far as the products go, carving products seem to be more performance over style, which is fine for us, but consumers love style over performance. Even Catek bindings come in 5 different colors. My TD3s with their red and yellow are styled like a McDonald's. Most in my generation wouldn't be caught dead on the slopes with a product like that. On a final note, boarder x riders don't wear speed suits. According to one interview, there was a gentleman's agreement not to because nobody wants to see a guy in a nut-hugging suit. Our sport just isn't very bro, and the racing niche seems to already be filled with skiing events. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loc Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 I am 23 and I literally have hundreds of reasons why I think carving will NEVER catch on. The only hope for the sport to get media attention, at least in my opinion, is for the sport to have a young American poster child who can win gold in the PGS, and then get arrested a few times, have tabloid photos (if he/she can make tabloids, that is) of him/her smoking weed, and then have all of America watch to see if that person can repeat olympic gold 4 years later. Basically, we need someone along the lines of Michael Phelps, Bode Miller, or at least Lindsey Jacobellis. As far as the products go, carving products seem to be more performance over style, which is fine for us, but consumers love style over performance. Even Catek bindings come in 5 different colors. My TD3s with their red and yellow are styled like a McDonald's. Most in my generation wouldn't be caught dead on the slopes with a product like that. On a final note, boarder x riders don't wear speed suits. According to one interview, there was a gentleman's agreement not to because nobody wants to see a guy in a nut-hugging suit. Our sport just isn't very bro, and the racing niche seems to already be filled with skiing events. Nailed it. Carving will never blow up. There's really no sex appeal in what we like to do. I love watching movies from people like Jeremy Jones, T. Rice etc because what they do has variety, danger, suspense, thrill, etc. Seeing freestyle competitions is exciting and awe inspiring. What can you really do with a carving movie? Turn left, turn right, cross over, cross under. YAWN. I mean who's gotten laid because they can euro carve? :D I hate to say it but even I'm in agreement with my mountain buddies when I say alpine is for hipsters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Stevens Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 Snowboarding in N/A is in decline. Well... Maybe it's flatlining. All you're left with is grabbing more market share. I'd say the best way to do this, and pop0tart is onto it in part with what he's saying, is to give it a sex(y)change. Alpine, as it is, doesn't have much style. Most people make it look bad with their riding alone... The equipment can really chuck an average rider around, where it kind of looks goofy, all hula-hoop-hands-in-the-air sort of thing. This, you can't do much about... Ultimately, you'll only stoke out the kids if you're a pinner. For sure, though, the rest of the picture is up for a change... I think the revolutionary alpine manufacturer will forego the robot boots and cigarette boards. Additionally, you shouldn't have this discussion without mentioning the clothes... All velcro and straps and just supersoo 90's. If "alpine" or "carving" just looked more normal, maybe new people would try it, or longtime riders would more seamlessly embrace their natural evolution from jumping all the time as a kid, to turning all the time, looking for different performance and experiences, as an adult. Couldn't wider boards, step in bindings that look like soft bindings, and hard-under-softboots do everything even the above average carver would want, without the baggage of looking too different, save for the binding angles? Snowboarding in general has done well because it has defined fashion for a big group of young folks, for many years. Alpine, along the way, just kind of went into "genetic drift"... Now, the only element improving is the technical nature of the equipment at the high end. Don't fight it, Bomber. Embrace the stylistic elements the rest of the industry is emanating at you. Promote a more "snowboard-y" brand of carving. You are leaders in this niche market, so why not jump start a new visual direction for alpine? I think, if the designs were right, it would give the 'turner" a lot of what they're looking for, with the best of both freeride and alpine together at last. I think this would taste good, like chocolate and peanut butter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NateW Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 Build a race course where hard boots will shine, and start the racers in groups of 4-6 like BX. It would basically be a BX course with smaller berms, or no berms at all. I can't think of any reason why this sort of thing would be any less entertaining than BX. Maybe more so, if they speeds are higher. Tailor it around boards with ~15m sidecuts, for example, with minimal skidding, just full-on railing all the way down the course. For bonus points.... ....bill it as a BX race, and invite all the usual BX competitors in addition to the top-tier alpine racers. And watch the softbooters get smoked by hardbooters when there's no berms to keep them on-course through the turns. Perhaps that would be mean. But it'd be fun to watch it unfold... :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Gendzwill Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 Alpine, as it is, doesn't have much style. Most people make it look bad with their riding alone... Really. I'd say just the opposite. The average soft-booter looks horrible to me, whereas most alpine riders are above-average skill-wise to start with and look great in comparison. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newmax Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 One thing I think that needs to happen is a Freecarve competition. Get alpine snowboarding AWAY from Sl and GS racing. I think that will make it much more appealing to the general public. +1 on that, Alpine races (SL and GS) are somewhat terrible to watch. :( agreed. i have little interest in racing, and believe it has relatively limited spectator appeal, however i can see growth in hardboot allmountain / freecarving. you don't even necessarily need comps - just talented riders getting exposure in magazines & video. with skiers staring to learn to love their edges, and 'mature' snowboarders looking to differentiate themselves from the spinning & jibbing crowd, i can see potential for a hardboot / freecarve rebirth.granted, the lack of readily accessible hardware is a major hurdle to overcome... are there any decent aggressive freecarve vid clips out there? i've scanned youtube w/o much luck. not much interested in the extreme carving thing, more hard charging of variable terrain... In Europe, we (or the main organizers, Ben & McFussel) have the Freecarving Masters in Soelden. Grown out of the idea, to create a little competition, that is NOT racing based, but carving-style based. In the end, after 3 years, I have to say that it's always been a great fun, to compete in front of a jury. And it's been a great meeting event for alpine riders. But the attraction to others (Skiers, SBers) was unfortunately not too big, so the event changed more into a great testing/meeting session for hardbooters, like SES. If anyone has ideas, on how to improve such a competiton (Limbo-carving is also a -creator...), to attract people, I'd love to hear them. Max Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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