Hype, Crowds, Media Attention

[Neil Gendzwill]

I haven't bought any non alpine gear in a while. Is alpine stuff really that much more than decent softboot or ski gear?

It's comparable to higher end stuff, problem is there's no entry-level gear aside from used.

[scrutton]

Yeah, it is. As someone already posted.....

When we talk to people on the hill (quite often actually) you can just watch the enthusiasm drain from there face as you first tell them they have to get it off the internet, then when you mention the cost, they stare blankly over your shoulder.......

It didn't use to be though right? The boots were always pricey, but the bindings (crap though they were) and the boards were comparable to high end at the time snowboard prices.

[OhD]

I like the idea, but are you talking at the SES or ECES? We did this and it's super fun, but trying to get the mountain to help us set up for it is a pain. We try to keep our askings to a minimum so we can concentrate more on the grooming. ...

Do like the X-Games, which seem to be pretty successful: Make the limbo bars out of sharpened steel I-beam so there's the ever-appealing carnage aspect (and you don't have to keep re-setting them - BONUS!). Include a few gaps and a money booter through a slot between two massive glass plates.

Make a companion video game. Arrange for the television audience to award style points or vote a rider into the trees. Get sponsorship from an erectile dysfunction drug (the catch-phrase possibilities are staggering...).

Just a few thoughts...

One more thought - consider how much fun we'd have if 99% of the people at the resorts rode just like we do, all on gear made in China.

[MUD]

It didn't use to be though right? The boots were always pricey, but the bindings (crap though they were) and the boards were comparable to high end at the time snowboard prices.

Correct, My PJ was about the same with bindings as my Mystery Air with bindings..... If I remember correctly.:o Maybe slightly more.

M vs. standard Air were about the same.

I think the boots were even close actually.

[heroshmero]

I, for one, really like the idea of marketing outside of snowsports.

I had Sean Martin make me an extra wide all mountain board last fall. At SES I spoke with him about it and thanked him for making a board that could not be purchased from any of the major board manufacturers. We talked about how there really aren't any boards out there for big footed riders like me. He mentioned an idea he had about marketing wider boards to big and tall stores. I thought that was a really interesting idea.

Michelle, its too bad that you haven't gotten any traction with getting carving into skateboarding and surfing magazines.

Getting some carving scenes into a major movie would be a great promotion of the sport. Not just a Warren Miller film but a typical Hollywood movie.

[heroshmero]

Correct, My PJ was about the same with bindings as my Mystery Air with bindings..... If I remember correctly.:o Maybe slightly more.

M vs. standard Air were about the same.

I think the boots were even close actually.

Well, I think everybody can agree that carving lost some amount of gear availability and affordable pricing when Burton dropped out of the game.

[pokkis]

Films like this is required to get attention

http://vimeo.com/20295244

[NMU Alpine Boarder]

As someone who got a degree in Sports Marketing/Promotion, I've kicked around ideas that we could use to further our sport... As Michelle has already mentioned, money is a huge hurdle to clear for many ideas... I do think there are some possibilities out there however...

First and foremost, social media ain't going away... I do believe that companies like Bomber, Donek, Apex, ect. should be trying to utilize these outlets whenever possible... It's an outlet to post photos, videos, product info, etc... This can be done with little to no startup cost... The trick is getting people to come out and add you on Facebook... These pages need to appeal to both the hardcore alpine nut who owns a plate, 2 pair of boots, and 4 metal boards, but at the same time, they need to catch the eye of the new carver... Your new carvers will likely only know that they saw some dude or dudette laying trenches at their local hill and that it looked cool... From a PR perspective, these are two vastly different groups of people and each has their own preferences... Retaining both is not easy...

Meeting people on the hill is another aspect that I've put thought into... I'm going to catch some grief for this theory, but here it goes... I think that if you want growth, the most "untapped" potential is sitting here in the Midwest... No matter where I ride at in Southern WI, IL or MI, I always seem to catch people's eye... You stand out like a sore thumb... Last year, I had a buddy do the Burton Learn to Ride program out at Chestnut Mtn. in NW IL... I rode my carving gear while he was in his 2 hour lesson... When I met him afterwards, I got the usual comments/questions about alpine from the 3 instructors that were working with the LTR group... All 3 thought it was very cool... Fast forward to October this season... I attended the Windy City Ski Show... I'm walking around in street clothes and go up to the Chestnut Mountain booth... One of the instructors that worked with my buddy is manning the booth... He instantly recognized me as the guy with the raceboard... As we get to talking, he tells the other Chestnut workers how cool I looked and how awesome it was to see someone ride like I did... According to them, I was the ONLY alpine rider that went to Chestnut last year... For that guy to pick me out, in street clothes, 8 months later none the less, shows me that I made an impression on him by exposing him to alpine...

So what was the point of that story? Here in the Midwest, a lot of people don't know what a "good" rider is... They aren't up to date on the latest tech either... But if you are on Alpine gear, you instantly fall into that category... It's instant credibility... If a shop out here was to maybe carry a few (as in 2-4) carve boards, I think that shop would have a very unique conversation piece... Alpine gear is way up on the "bling" scale... Plates and metal boards catch eyes... Would it translate directly into sales? Not necessarily, but it would expose our sport... It would however, get people here in the Midwest to check out websites, facebook pages, ect... You could then use those as your hook to catch possible sales down the road... That is where you can tie in that Demo Tour...

I think in the East and West, there is much more of a skiing/boarding "upper class" that knows about alpine and chooses not to partake... I think here in the Midwest, our sport has a better chance to grab a hold since no one knows about it... Look at what the Minnesota guys have done with the G-Team...

I know that I kinda babbled and this got long... I had to multi-task while typing this, but I hope my ideas came across.. If there is anything I can do to help promote the sport, I am more than willing to be a part if it... Like I said, I have a degree in PR and can always use an extra project to put in the resume...

[queequeg]

I think it is very possible that most people are happy skidding and aren't willing to put forth the effort carving takes.

+10 I think carving will always be (somewhat) limited by the fact that most people just don't want to put the effort into learning a technical sport. But I feel like we are falling short of our potential in terms of the number of current riders.

Films like this is required to get attention

http://vimeo.com/20295244

that movie kicks ass!!!!

[Michelle]

Films like this is required to get attention

http://vimeo.com/20295244

What a great trailer! If they showed this even at independent film festivals it would be a big hit! I am on the board for the Breck Film Festival and we have an outdoor sports category that this would fit into perfectly.

THESE are the untapped markets that I am talking about!

Such great ideas - keep 'em coming!

[Michelle]

Has Bomber thought about putting together a 'PRO' team?

We have a "Pro" team! However, we can only sponsor them with gear, and not $$. If F2 says "I'll give you $10,000 to race on our stuff", and Bomber says "i'll give you a pair of bindings and a plate to race on our stuff" - who do you think they'll pick?

Our pro team is our pro team because they believe in our products and love us, and know that we are much easier to work with than "other" bigger companies.

[Michelle]

Make a companion video game.

does anyone know how to make a great snowboard game? This would be something cool to be able to hand out to people if we did a "tour" but again we couldn't pay anyone to do it.

[Mxjas38]

Bumper stickers and Bomber stickers ,Paypal volunteer donation to BOL or your post gets flamed!!!:AR15firinSell us back a sticker kit to promote Hard booting. When do you want my $10.

Yes this is what I was thinking. Maybe helmet stickers that say something like "Please, Ask me about my snowboard!" along with the Bomber logo. And a stash of business cards in our pockets.

Also I will be racing BX at USASA nationals on Hardboots in Open class. I will gladly hand out business cards for you.

Jason

[Michelle]

Also I will be racing BX at USASA nationals on Hardboots in Open class. I will gladly hand out business cards for you.

Jason

Jason, you rock! Send me your address, I'll gladly send you some or you can order them here for free

http://www.bomberonline.com/store/accessories/hard_boot_card.cfm

just click "check or money order" when you check out.

[kieran]

for all that people may despair about the limited visibility of hardboot snowboarding, it seems to me that the current niche participants are keeping a niche industry alive. bomber, donek, prior, coiler .. not to mention the stuff over here in eurolande.

what happens when this is no longer a niche?

[Michelle]

what happens when this is no longer a niche?

Exactly. This is what we are trying to avoid!

[valsam]

Racing just don't look good to the eye any more,EC is what gets people head's to turn!

Some kind of exhibition of super EC style riders like Patrice Fivat or many others out there that are on that level of ECing or even the Casper carver style with the right promotion would definitely give hardbooting a new life!

Also racing but some kind of racing like linked-turn limbo contest like (but with some kind of point system -+ for time and skids, finess etc) kieran said!

[scrutton]

how about getting carving into a major movie...loan out the equipment, and a talented rider to stunt double...needs only be a short clip...

[Beckmann AG]

How can we get this kind of crowd for ANY hard boot event? Heck, I'd even take 1/2 these people for ONE race.

Don't bother. You have a niche market that expresses, daily, an enviable loyalty to both your product and your customer service. Trying to go mainstream is, quite simply, a waste of money.

Presumably, you have data on who buys Bomber products, and who participates in hardbooting. Look to draw more from that demographic, and forget about trying to attract those not predisposed to this mode of recreation.

In other words, bake your own pie rather than fighting for a slice of pie that has shriveled and grown stale.

Snowboarding, and hardbooting in particular, are very young developmentally. It appears that the SES is well received, and looks to grow a bit each year. (Or so it seems from this side of the computer). Position yourself for the eventual growth as the sport matures, and let the growth take care of itself. Human nature more or less assures that as the sport gains participants, the younger segment will push for competitions that suit their needs. The inclusion of younger riders, as seen and referenced at SES '11, is a move in the right direction.

Meanwhile, let the current race formats die their eventual death.

You already have an enthusiastic sales staff working more or less Pro Bono. Take the next step and figure out how you can:1. Provide the tools to close the deal, and 2. Reduce barriers to participation.

To wit:

Quote:

Originally Posted by zoltan

Develop a binding which will allow ski boots to work somewhat well on a board. That would take a huge cost out of the picture for demoing a carving setup for new users. It would also create a very easy entry point for skiers interested in our sport.

Yes, but ski boots are so incredibly stiff that people, especially newbies, tend to spend their time fighting the boot and therefore hating the sport because they think it's too hard.

Scenario: Two days ago I was exchanging pleasantries with Michaud in the Spillway lift corral. A skier sidles up, expresses admiration for our endeavors, indicates his recent acquisition of hardbootin' stuff, and inquires about instruction. I depart for work, and Jack shares a chair.

The next day he finds me, and we get to it. He's equipped with an old Prior, a pair of manky TD1 with flat front and inboard cant on the rear, and Tecnica Icons, (quite possibly the worst ski boot ever produced).

A few minutes of wrenchery later, and he's grinning and shaking his head in disbelief at how relatively easy carving can be.

If I can do that with a TD1, what do you suppose is possible with a TD3 or OS1?

With no disrespect intended, I submit that if you can't facilitate enjoyment at the entry level with a ski boot, you may wish to reconsider the way in which you configure a prospective rider.

In truth, they are fighting their interface geometry, not the boot. The stiffer boot simply highlights the problem.

It's a great idea for ease and $$ point of view, but I would rather not introduce a new person to the sport with a ski boot.

Are you really that willing to give up a new participant? I'm not advocating ski boot use for the masses, but as Zoltan points out, ski boots can certainly eliminate the more obvious roadblocks.

I'm willing to hold a small stash of demo boards and grippers, but the obvious question is, who covers the liability?

[Jack M]

I agree about the ski boot thing, especially having taught a number of beginners on ski boots. Whenever I meet a skier who is curious about getting into carving, I point out that they can use their ski boots and switch back and forth between the board and their skis. That usually generates a spark.

[BobD]

Seems like the best way to promote anything at the moment is on Facebook. If the bomber FB page linked to great videos once a week, and BOLers "liked" those videos, then the potential audience, as more and more people like them is huge.

[Corey]

We likely all have that friend that's into some sport and passionately tries to convince you to try it. Hang gliding, scuba, rock climbing, baseball, bowling, car racing, etc. It gets pretty annoying after a while, you just want to say: "Buddy, if and when I want to do _______, I'll definitely come find you. Lay off until then." I don't want to be that guy to someone else.

Look to draw more from that demographic, and forget about trying to attract those not predisposed to this mode of recreation.

This is the approach I've been taking locally. If someone asks the usual questions (what is that, is it like snowboarding, etc.) I politely give them short but accurate answers. If they continue to ask questions I'll ramp up the sales pitch dramatically.

I've only managed to get two different people on loaner setups after hundreds of basic inquiries. One bought a used board/boots/bindings setup from me and basically vanished, another did one run where he pretty much straightlined to the bottom (all 350'! :p) of a gentle blue run and proclaimed alpine snowboards as dangerous and impossible to control to anyone that listened. But I've still got an adequate loaner board I keep just in case. The latest guy I'm gently working on converting is 120 lbs... Nothing of mine is going to work for him so I'm working on getting him to carve his soft setup instead.

I think the best advertising is ripping it up as best you can on your local slopes. Ride under the lift when you're having a good day, go elsewhere when you're fighting to stay upright. I stand out like a sore thumb on the average small prairie hill as I'm one of very few not doing the heelside bulldozer from top to bottom. People look. Some jeer, more cheer.

[crucible]

I think one of the key aspects about growing our sport that hasn't been discussed is quality instructional programs, along with an entry level pricepoint package for board, binding, and boots that would follow the example of Burton's "Learn to Ride" program at the grassroots level.

Face it, in alpine, there are no shortcuts - you have to put your time in on the hill to master a carved turn.

A entry level pricepoint package along with a an alpine supported grassroots instructional program might make it easier to try us on for size.

I only can think of a couple of manufacturers and retailers like Sean Donek and Dave Morgan from YYZ Canuck who have even put an equipment starter package program out there.

They are to be commended, as well as people like Boris "Blue B" who stand out and plant the alpine flag proudly in the local Vancouver scene.

[forrest]

Has anyone ridden on a new set of ski boots? The last ski boots I used where of the old stiff variety and they are less forgiving than snowboard boots. My girlfriend just bought a new set of ski boots this year and frankly they are soft. These are a intermediate to advanced boot and they are noodles compared to old style boots. The stiffness seems much more like a snowboard boot. Shape skis have brought about a softening of ski boots that I think brings them quite close to snowboard boots. With a binding that has a fair amount of suspension like the TD3 I believe new ski boots can be used in a fairly comfortable manner.

This may all be wrong since I have not been able to ride with new ski boots. anyone able to confirm or deny any of this?

[michael.a]

I typed up this big long spiel but f it, Im a brutal bastard but Im not going to tear apart some of the stupid ideas here or whats better or whatever, AND MAKING CARVING GEAR AVAILABLE EVERYWHERE IS ECONOMICALLY UNVIABLE AND SUICIDAL, but I think have the answer, I dont even want to give it since I want alpine boarding to stay a niche sport, but I worked with a few marketing gurus and this is what I learned from them, most important is the rule of 3 in small scale marketing:

More carving sessions. I mean lots more. TONS MORE. and more important are the weekend meets. They can be informal. But 3 carvers MUST show up. Minimum 3. If only 2 dont bother to show up. Ride together. Youll break the conformity barrier immediately. If it can be regularly held all the better.

Next is take advantage of the bystander effect. Again it can be totally informal or formal. A small booth or tent or even god damn flag with some music with one but better 2 people standing in the middle going on about alpine boards some boards as example it doesnt matter what, but there must be 3 "paid" actors as the audience listening in. It will immediately attract attention.

Word of mouth wont work here quite honestly, but more talk to friends about those wicked Gs you pulled or how sweet this or how next year your gonna go to the olympics or whatever, it doesnt matter, but MAINTAINING THE AIR OF EXCLUSIVITY. its snobbery but it works. because thats what makes it cool.

Niche sports that broke off from larger sports like kiteboarding started off from windsurfers, finding an audience from non winter sports dudes wont work. Our target audience of course is snowboarders but imo its skiers.

thats it. :)