Should we offer a Sub-Forum for Softboot Carving?

[John Gilmour]

I think you're a snowboarder first. ;)

Or maybe a slalom skateboarder first?!? Wassup John! It's big Mig, from slalom racing (Fullbag)...

I was a slalom skateboarder first.... started in 1972- rode snurfers in 1976

I did not want this to be my first post on Bomber, but I'm just too curious: :D

What hardboots did you switch too in 1983? And what binding and board were you using?

I became a dealer for koflach mountaineering boots (I think I became a dealer for Koflach, Ess and Atomic) and used Koflach Valuga lites in red- and modified my Sims Bindings to accept this hardboot using extended wire bails to make the straps fit over the hardboot. Later I took soccer shin guards and shoe gooed them together to simulate the heel support of a hardboot to try and make it easier for my friends to ride my boards in soft boots and bolted this to the heelcups. I used a skateboard spacer block and drilled a bunch of holes to be able to set the highback lean... this was pre-highbacks... the semi flexible uerthane spacers got stiff in cold weather and eventually would crack the soccer shin guards despite many layers of duct tape.

I don't remember seeing anyone on them until a couple years later, and even then it was mainly lace up plastic mountainering boots in "regular" bindings.

Those lace up ones were too soft and the heel would not engage in the footplate properly-in 1985 I switched to the Koflach Albona which was ridden a lot by Damian Saunders of Avalanche.

I discovered carving on soft groomers and groomed spring slush (no man made snow in my area back then) in 1983 with my Burton Powdergun (I started riding in 1979). I stitched a leather loop at the top of my Sorel-type boots to hold the heelstrap high enough on the back of my leg so that it acted like a hiback on heelside turns. After seeing it worked really well in less than ideal pow conditions, I gave it a try on the groomers and was amazed.

Next board was the first Elite 150 (square tail). It was nice having edges and p-tex but it felt like a piece of **** compared to the Powdergun. You could only skid turns, even in pow.

Yes those boards had pretty much no side cut or tail...the Sims FE Pros were much better then...particularly the 1600FE and 1700FE, I also owned a X-2000 which was the old style laminate- it was a horrible board and was stolen from me by some guy who stole a bunch of historic decks- same Sims model Craig Kelly rode to win the US open before switching to Burton.

By the way, carving to me has always been about making round turns and leaving just a thin track, no skid.

And to keep this topic related, I voted yes. There's no snowboard forum on the net that caters to softboot carving, or where softbooters with a carving style can feel welcome (at least I never stumbled across a good one).

I raced (and rode exclusively) on hardboots back in the late 80s and early 90s on the provincial circuit, with guys like Jasey-Jay and his brother, and even got a couple podium finishes (he probably doesn't remember me though, I am a lot older... LOL). Even if I did pretty good, I got fed up with the elitist attitude of some of the racers and went back to softies and freeriding. My local area had better pow than groomers anyway. I started considering getting back into alpine carving since I got back into racing slalom skateboards 5 or 6 years ago. So I started lurking more and more on Bomber. This poll prompted me to become a member.

I'm sure fin is a good enough businessman to see that a specific softboot carving forum is a good thing for futur business and the futur of alpine/hardboot carving.:)

So you carve in both hard and softboots?

[John Gilmour]

:lol: Thats rich.

Think Snow!

Time will tell. Current stiff softboots are stiffer than some old hardboots from the 1980's...I would have never expected that to happen..I thought comfort was paramount to selling a softboot.

[emorris]

I do think the softboot technology (in terms of flex profiles and internal heel retention and preventing foot rolling) is currently progressing faster than hardboot technology. IMHO.

I would tend to believe that the faster progress in soft boot technology is due in large part to the much larger market for soft boots. Truthfully, it all comes down to the financial realities. Look through Google Patents (much faster and easier to navigate than the US Patent and Trademark Office site) and count how many patents there are for soft boot gear.

The reason I voted yes for a separate soft boot forum is not because I ride soft boots and want to convert the world to soft boot carving. I believe that welcoming soft boot CARVERS and those interested in learning about CARVING in general, might enlarge the pool of hard boot carvers. And that would be good for Bomber, Coiler, Donek, Prior and anyone else making gear for hard boots. And the knock on effect would be more new and innovative products developed for the sport, and potentially more reasonable prices as manufacturing volume increased.

Like I said before, I don't think that the soft boot carving forum should be a place to discuss backside 540's, butters, grabs or things like that. But it is a great place for mature adults to discuss carving. Surely some portion of these new members to the site would purchase a hard boot set up. If we had to accept that some of these new members will prefer to carve in soft boots in order to increase the exposure of hard boots, isn't that a pretty small price to pay for all of the potential benefits?

[Bubba]

butters

Not too hard to butter or boardslide a race board on a nice box, just have to be careful!

Maybe that also contributed to my hosed up ankle.

[lamby]

I voted no, because if you file it away in another place it will just be neatly tucked in where I'm less likely to come across an interesting discussion.

[b0ardski]

I voted no, because if you file it away in another place it will just be neatly tucked in where I'm less likely to come across an interesting discussion.

Isn't that the idea.

[Jack M]

Well, you did not see anyone BX'ing in Hardboots in the final did you?

Touché. However I didn't see any of them carving like I like to either.

I find myself surprised when I clip into my softboot set up and can have the feeling of being completely locked in like with hardboots..yet with less foot roll, and more heel retention...just not the stiffness and weight.

Aren't you painfully crushing your foot to accomplish this? That is what I have to do any time I am in softies in order to get any performance. Ouch, no thanks.

And Jack coming from the Loaf....with its hard snow... I know you would find it hard to believe it....and I would react exactly the same way if our places were reversed. I would still tell any east coaster to buy hardboots and a carving set up first before ANY BX set up for the East Coast Snow bulletproof hardpack...though I hear the East Coast had a banner snow year.... far better than Aspen.

We are now. We had nothing for 6 weeks since mid-January, and then we got like 5 feet of snow in one week.

Selling my Kessler 185cm PGS for $999 + shipping...never base ground.... I'll buy a new one for next year..but likely shorter.

The 2011 SG 170 and Kessler 171 look to be a freecarver's dream. If you're into $1500 boards.

[photodad2001]

Aren't you painfully crushing your foot to accomplish this? That is what I have to do any time I am in softies in order to get any performance. Ouch, no thanks.

I think that comes from what we used to do. I don't have the newest boots, but from my start in 86 to just a couple years ago I always cranked down the ratchet so tight it felt like I was flattening the arch of my foot. I found that I didn't have to tighten so far while teaching my daughter. I always went for comfort when out on the green and blues with my daughter and one time Grandma and Grandpa came up to watch their precious angel ride (not me, my duaghter) and I took a couple runs with the relaxed fit and it worked just as good if not better than over tightening. Could just be a force of habit or expectations that we over tighten. I think overtightening also weakens the boot which makes you have to tighten even more. Just my opinion though.

[Mig]

Mig , welcome to Bomber!!

So this thread did serve a constructive-positive purpose. I.E Bringing another lucker into the light!!

Glad you have your experience and positive outlook on the forum.

Yes, the Powdergun RULED!!!!

Thanks for the welcome!

Powdergun is still on the wall, right above my bed:

With this framed picture of me using it back then, as a reminder to always keep it fun:

[John Gilmour]

Touché. However I didn't see any of them carving like I like to either.

-They don't carve as it is slower...

Aren't you painfully crushing your foot to accomplish this? That is what I have to do any time I am in softies in order to get any performance. Ouch, no thanks.

To the contrary..I have more foot crush in hardboots (but years ago your experience was the same as mine) - but then again I have a custom Strolz liner in my hardboots... I am far more comfortable in the soft boots in part because of the inner lace wrap that is a part of the outershell that wraps around the liner. Also my Softboots are not comfortable for the first 10 days of use..they break in and mold to my foot- in contrast my Strolz liners are comfortable sooner...but still I had 3 trips to get my outer shell blown out to eliminate hot spots

We are now. We had nothing for 6 weeks since mid-January, and then we got like 5 feet of snow in one week.

The 2011 SG 170 and Kessler 171 look to be a freecarver's dream. If you're into $1500 boards.

I don't mind $1500 boards...(what I hate are $600 boards that ride like $100 boards) I feel I could be having more fun on newer gear. And compared to other sacrifices I have made..ie.. living in ski town for 6 months of the year without snow just to be able to ride every day in season.... the extra $700 seems cheap. THe 171 Kessler is also on my short list....but I gotta sell my 185cm first.

My current set ups for soft boot carving....

1 used Rossignol 168 Judge $180

1 set of Union Bindings $150

1 NOS Rossignol demo 159cm $150

1 Set of Catek FR2

1 2009 Salomon Sick Stick Demo 160cm (perfect condition) $175

1 Pair Rome DAvid Bowie Bindings 70% off $70

(this board can barely carve heelside at all)

These are all powder boards, That I force to carve... mostly because bottomless powder is one of the times you DON"T want to be on a carving board in hardboots.

Unfortunately both my Kessler BX's arrived with damage.

I can't wait to get on a New Kessler BX and try to outfit it to carve...I spec'd a deck for Kessler a few weeks ago 166cm.

I also want to buy that UFC Virus deck in just about any size... it's a hardboot board that gives me extreme terrain versatility- without noticeably sacrificing performance so it can deal with powder deeper than 4 inches as well as super hard conditions without having to change anything.

Realistically between a Kessler BX with softboots and a Virus UFC you'd be hard pressed to ever feel you took out the wrong deck in Colorado.

If I were on the East Coast any of the 170 cm Priors, Coilers, Madds, Doneks, Virus, Kessler, SG all would work just fine... I probably wouldn't bother with softboots for 90-95% of the days on the East coast....just for the 2 days right after a snow storm when it is a mess. On the east Coast I likely wouldn't ever bother to ride my rossignols either...I'd have to go with something beefier.

[gdboytyler]

Aren't you painfully crushing your foot to accomplish this? That is what I have to do any time I am in softies in order to get any performance. Ouch, no thanks.

I think that comes from what we used to do. I don't have the newest boots, but from my start in 86 to just a couple years ago I always cranked down the ratchet so tight it felt like I was flattening the arch of my foot. I found that I didn't have to tighten so far while teaching my daughter. … I took a couple runs with the relaxed fit and it worked just as good if not better than over tightening.

One of the reasons I started riding hardboots was because strap bindings were killing my feet. In my older bindings, I really had to get the straps tight to keep my heel down when I was carving on my freestyle board. That was the older Burton strap bindings and Flow bindings from 4 or 5 years ago.

With Burton C60 strap bindings and K2 T1 boots, I only have to keep the straps snug and my heel is kept in place. The heel cup in the Burton C60’s are pretty deep. Softboots and strap bindings have come a looong way.

[svr]

That image is exactly what has kept me riding. It is all about the feel and what it means to each of us...who cares what the masses want, lets ride for the feel of it and enjoy it no matter what our interfaces are whether they be hardboots or softboots, we are all snowboarders and have a lot more in common than you think.

cheers,

sandy

always searching for the perfect turn, both in powder and on corduroy.

[Mig]

Thanks for the answers, John.

So you carve in both hard and softboots?

Softboots exclusively since I gave up on racing in the early/mid 90s. If I can find cheap boots and bindings that will fit and hold up to my size, I will give it a try again. I'm thinking some used boots with new moldable liners, and sturdy bindings.

[Mig]

I think that comes from what we used to do. I don't have the newest boots, but from my start in 86 to just a couple years ago I always cranked down the ratchet so tight it felt like I was flattening the arch of my foot. I found that I didn't have to tighten so far while teaching my daughter. I always went for comfort when out on the green and blues with my daughter and one time Grandma and Grandpa came up to watch their precious angel ride (not me, my duaghter) and I took a couple runs with the relaxed fit and it worked just as good if not better than over tightening. Could just be a force of habit or expectations that we over tighten. I think overtightening also weakens the boot which makes you have to tighten even more. Just my opinion though.

One of the reasons I started riding hardboots was because strap bindings were killing my feet. In my older bindings, I really had to get the straps tight to keep my heel down when I was carving on my freestyle board. That was the older Burton strap bindings and Flow bindings from 4 or 5 years ago.

With Burton C60 strap bindings and K2 T1 boots, I only have to keep the straps snug and my heel is kept in place. The heel cup in the Burton C60’s are pretty deep. Softboots and strap bindings have come a looong way.

Three things aleviated my foot pain over the years until it finally disappered completely:

1- Switching to Burton P1 straps when they first came out.

2- Switching to the Burton Driver X when they first came out (this reeeeally changed everything for me).

3- Getting used to NOT overtightning everything with the newer gear. You gain comfort, without loosing power, and without any heel lift.

[Mig]

That image is exactly what has kept me riding. It is all about the feel and what it means to each of us...who cares what the masses want, lets ride for the feel of it and enjoy it no matter what our interfaces are whether they be hardboots or softboots, we are all snowboarders and have a lot more in common than you think.

cheers,

sandy

always searching for the perfect turn, both in powder and on corduroy.

[dano]

I don't mind $1500 boards...(what I hate are $600 boards that ride like $100 boards) I feel I could be having more fun on newer gear. And compared to other sacrifices I have made..ie.. living in ski town for 6 months of the year without snow just to be able to ride every day in season.... the extra $700 seems cheap. THe 171 Kessler is also on my short list....but I gotta sell my 185cm first.

My current set ups for soft boot carving....

1 used Rossignol 168 Judge $180

1 set of Union Bindings $150

1 NOS Rossignol demo 159cm $150

1 Set of Catek FR2

1 2009 Salomon Sick Stick Demo 160cm (perfect condition) $175

1 Pair Rome DAvid Bowie Bindings 70% off $70

(this board can barely carve heelside at all)

These are all powder boards, That I force to carve... mostly because bottomless powder is one of the times you DON"T want to be on a carving board in hardboots.

Unfortunately both my Kessler BX's arrived with damage.

I can't wait to get on a New Kessler BX and try to outfit it to carve...I spec'd a deck for Kessler a few weeks ago 166cm.

I also want to buy that UFC Virus deck in just about any size... it's a hardboot board that gives me extreme terrain versatility- without noticeably sacrificing performance so it can deal with powder deeper than 4 inches as well as super hard conditions without having to change anything.

Realistically between a Kessler BX with softboots and a Virus UFC you'd be hard pressed to ever feel you took out the wrong deck in Colorado.

If I were on the East Coast any of the 170 cm Priors, Coilers, Madds, Doneks, Virus, Kessler, SG all would work just fine... I probably wouldn't bother with softboots for 90-95% of the days on the East coast....just for the 2 days right after a snow storm when it is a mess. On the east Coast I likely wouldn't ever bother to ride my rossignols either...I'd have to go with something beefier.

You can't find ANY freaking groom at all out there with the kessler? Did you hock your hardboots? What the hell are you putting in the hot chocolate? Have the cougars broken you or fed you their meds? You DO realize that informed hardbooters view you as a living carving legend...

Don't go all Howard Houghs on us now...

[heroshmero]

Don't go all Howard Houghs on us now...

Limpsinking is trying to get some from a chubby canadian chick in a janitor's closet and not being up to the task.

Dano, you are just killing it man!

[Jack M]

Thanks for the welcome!

Powdergun is still on the wall, right above my bed:

With this framed picture of me using it back then, as a reminder to always keep it fun:

That is awesome. Except for the earmuffs of course. ;)

[John Gilmour]

You can't find ANY freaking groom at all out there with the kessler? Did you hock your hardboots? What the hell are you putting in the hot chocolate? Have the cougars broken you or fed you their meds? You DO realize that informed hardbooters view you as a living carving legend...

Don't go all Howard Houghs on us now...

There is groomed snow here (best anywhere IMHO) ... but this year it has been soft snow- often a bit too soft for hardbooting.. I find that the Kessler likes to go about 20+ mph before it starts to turn nicely. I've almost fallen over trying to turn it at under 10mph if I've even slightly over edged.

I can do with much less effective edge...than the 185cm Kessler PGS has..I'd go as far to say that I could do just fine with 20cm less effective edge. If I were back East at say wind stripped Jay Peak...or Killington on a windy day... or Mt. Tremblant.... I might want some of that effective edge.

Things were not always that way..when I first got into carving..I just wanted more and more effective edge.... but now..I still go fast... but I can manage as much edge hold as I want with less board. I don't have sheer ice to deal with anymore.

I still have my hardboots Deluxe 700T...though again... I think I don't need all the stiffness in them... I think I need some of it with the Kessler.. but probably not with other decks. If I could redo it all I would go for softer hardboots... ones ironically that flex more- but deform less laterally....there is a lag from when I tell the boot to turn.

I certainly would NEVER give up hardbooting..I just want to be able to push the gear hard and have versatility- any turn- any speed- any condition. I like being able to alternate between hard and soft gear- I get to ride more.

To stay on topic....Which is why there has to be a place for people to learn to carve with different techniques with different gear.

The odd thing.. Skiers used to carve..nowadays I see so many skiers skiing with their legs too close together for the newer carving skis to work properly. And the new carving skis don't carve well close together... so ironically it would seem that the new carving skis which are ridden with the old style technique 90%+ of the time... leave us as really the only carvers on the hill. The skiers for the most part still skid their turns and turn our slopes in to chop by 2pm. If the skiers would carve, IMHO the slopes would stay in much better shape for longer.

For people that only read online stuff (And never ride with me) ... As I comment recently more often on softboot carving...they may have thought I have given up on hardboots... which I have not at all... its just that many people give up on softboot carving immediately ....IMHO because their softboot gear gear is set up poorly...and go straight to hardboots..when IMHO they would be best off learning to carve a bit in softboots ----->and then they would be better equipped to make the jump to hard gear than if they never carved at all.

[Mig]

That is awesome. Except for the earmuffs of course. ;)

:lol:Yeah! And to make it worst, they were dayglow orange. I also had a pair of leopard print. Punk rock baby!

Seriously, what made me wear those back then was that we spent all day hiking to ride. Wearing a hat made me sweat way to much. So earmuffs were the solution. The fact that I still had hair back then also helped...:lol:

[QReuCk]

Sorry guys to up this somewhat painfull topic. I just have a few things to discuss and I think they haven't been covered yet.

Disclaimer: I am a softbooter, but I realize my opinion may not be that relevant in most of the discussions on this forum. I'll try to refrain posting too much useless material.

About going somewhere else: I am on several softboots (they say "snowboarding" but still) forums. Even some kind of moderator in a french one. If I want to learn about carving in general and how to improve my technique, I'll still go to carving specific sites. You don't even realize how irrelevant 99% of the answers are about carving in the softboots forums. At some point, you got to seek advices from people in the know. I think I can adapt the techniques mentionned on carving sites or choose what applies and what doesn't apply with my equipment/stance.

The specific case of extremecarving.com must be covered: They ARE inclusive with softbooters, but they are not inclusive with any other technique apart from there "EC technique". Even if I learnt a lot from them, I feel other ideas can be tried picking from here (appreciated a lot the "Norm" articles, even if it has to be tweaked a lot in order to fit with my stance angles).

Basically, I'm here because I feel I can learn a lot from some people here. Does this mean I will convert to hardboots? Maybe not. Will I try to convert you to softboot? Don't think I'm stupid enough. I'm with softboots for other reason than carving. Still I want to carve with my setup and I'll seek ideas where they are more likely to be.

If I have the feeling my opinion may be somewhat remotely relevant, I'll express it, but I believe it won't be really often. It could change if a softboot carving subforum appears and talk about this is welcome. Just hope there won't have any flamewar between forward stances and duck stances (realize that: even with the same gear, this difference implies a totally different carving technique).

Sorry for the noise. Back to silence.

[Petrol]

your post is not noise and there is no reason to say you're sorry

[b0ardski]

welcome to BOL Qreuck,

Nice to have another voice of reason on here & look forward to other posts from you.

When the softy sub forum appears, even though I only ride plates, I'll be lurking for info to help friends into carving and/or trying hardshells.

[Dr D]

Sorry guys to up this somewhat painfull topic. I just have a few things to discuss and I think they haven't been covered yet.

Disclaimer: I am a softbooter, but I realize my opinion may not be that relevant in most of the discussions on this forum. I'll try to refrain posting too much useless material.

About going somewhere else: I am on several softboots (they say "snowboarding" but still) forums. Even some kind of moderator in a french one. If I want to learn about carving in general and how to improve my technique, I'll still go to carving specific sites. You don't even realize how irrelevant 99% of the answers are about carving in the softboots forums. At some point, you got to seek advices from people in the know. I think I can adapt the techniques mentionned on carving sites or choose what applies and what doesn't apply with my equipment/stance.

+1 There is no better place to learn about carving than right here. one of the benefits to having a softboot forum is the ability to discuss the techniques (many of which are new) for softboot carving with other carvers. Perhaps with good moderators we can keep the hardcore hardboot zealots from flaming the conversations about softboot carving as long as they are in the appropriate forum. Its a win win. no more softboot discussions on the main board and a specific area for technique development and softboot carving in general. HINT: IF they learn to carve well in softboots many are gonna wanna graduate to hardboots thus growing the sport.

[Snowman]

Softbooters are rad! Give them their own forum so that they can talk about their radness there and we (the Hardboot Taliban) can have the carving community fourm back!

Think Snow!