jp1 Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 Loupa5, "The other day I wax my board with what ever I could find. Then after about three to four runs at the local slopes I was getting of the lift and I about did a face plant. I'm not sure why but I think the wax froze. The board had no slide..it felt like someone laid a carpet underneath me. Really scared the sh#t out of me." What is, "what ever I could find" ? Just curious, because of my own ignorance when I started skiing I was reading about waxing. Not having 'ski wax' around, thought what could it hurt to use a car wax? I found out quick, exact same results as you experienced! Another thing that WILL cause same results is Riding on a lift 'Thru The Guns' ! If you get the base of your board blasted by a gun and it freezes to it, it feels like you have studs in the base when you 'try' to get off of the lift! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jp1 Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 Everytime I ride I towel dry board before putting into the car. I visually check & feel edges for damage. If damaged, touch up as soon as I get home before waxing. I use Swix F4 paste wax (usually an 1"-1 1/2", along each edge is the only worn area) every time out. I use to 'hot wax' entire base every 5-7 times out, but this year, have gone to 'Rays Way' as recommended by Tuner instead. I know my equipment is NOT my problem :). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roman Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 Do you know of any place you can get these in the US? I've been trying to find someone who sells their stuff here but no luck. have you tried to reach them directly? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JK moscraciun Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 So after reading this thread the bug bit my ass... what should I pick up for those who want to DIY?Who makes the best edge/base sharpening tools? What about files or polishing stones, do I need them all? Ive only hotwaxed before and left the edges and base to the selfdeemed experts at the local shop, but now Im willin to drop the coin to do it myself. The EC guys swear by everything offered by the swiss company Tooltonic.. Usually all tool and wax manufacturers offers some good information's along with the usual marketing blabla you can find some videos to! just google some ex: videos http://www.holmenkol.com/en/service/video.html pdf(manuals) http://www.tokous.com/InfoCenter.htm http://www.toko.ch/en/preparationprofessional_tools_edgetuning.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigdyno Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 I tried using the long skinny dinner table candles to wax my board but found that the short, fat ones that smell like cinnamon work best. See here: http://www.swixschool.com/web_tysk/index2.html http://www.slidewright.com/index.php and especially here: http://www.tognar.com/ these are just some sites I found. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobdea Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 Everytime I ride I towel dry board before putting into the car. I visually check & feel edges for damage. If damaged, touch up as soon as I get home before waxing. I use Swix F4 paste wax (usually an 1"-1 1/2", along each edge is the only worn area) every time out. I use to 'hot wax' entire base every 5-7 times out, but this year, have gone to 'Rays Way' as recommended by Tuner instead. I know my equipment is NOT my problem :). don't bother with the swix paste if you're using the wizard, it works better. the swix paste tends to be slow as **** at first. Also, it has solvents that dissolve any real wax on your base. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carvedog Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 I tried using the long skinny dinner table candles to wax my board but found that the short, fat ones that smell like cinnamon work best. Better cinnamon than those damn potpourri candles. Got a good laugh at that thx. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Gilmour Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 Everytime I ride I towel dry board before putting into the car. I visually check & feel edges for damage. If damaged, touch up as soon as I get home before waxing. I use Swix F4 paste wax (usually an 1"-1 1/2", along each edge is the only worn area) every time out. I use to 'hot wax' entire base every 5-7 times out, but this year, have gone to 'Rays Way' as recommended by Tuner instead. I know my equipment is NOT my problem :). How do you get the F4 to work?.. I have tried for years unsuccessfully to make that stuff work as well as hot wax.. what's the trick?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobdea Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 I'm going to have to disagree on this one. My dad has been riding the same Nitro board for 15 or 16 years. He has never tuned this board once. Never been waxed, never been sharpened. He claims its because he doesn't want to go faster. My board on the other hand, is waxed about yearly.Just for fun, my brother, dad, and I occasionally like to switch our boards around to try something new. I notice no loss in agility or the ability to initiate my turns when I am on his board... and I'll remind you - we are talking about the difference between a relatively fresh tune, and a 15 year old board that has never been tuned. wax only lasts about four full days out on the hill to have your base really dry. your board is dry as sh it in the sahara well. because your old man has goofy ideas and rides a deck older than R kelley's latest girlfriend does not mean it's good to do it that way. I'm not trying to be a dick here and I've stayed out of this thread until now because it made me snicker but you ought to listen up. I've put in my time as have many others here, some racing, patrolling, doing events, teaching or just riding 150 days a year because they are economically advantaged and we tend to agree. tune your ****. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loupa5 Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 I found it in a shoe box, still waiting on my order from Tognar. Wow, your right about the "Guns" I didn't think about till now. Its possible my board got blasted on the way up. Loupa5, "The other day I wax my board with what ever I could find. Then after about three to four runs at the local slopes I was getting of the lift and I about did a face plant. I'm not sure why but I think the wax froze. The board had no slide..it felt like someone laid a carpet underneath me. Really scared the sh#t out of me."What is, "what ever I could find" ? Just curious, because of my own ignorance when I started skiing I was reading about waxing. Not having 'ski wax' around, thought what could it hurt to use a car wax? I found out quick, exact same results as you experienced! Another thing that WILL cause same results is Riding on a lift 'Thru The Guns' ! If you get the base of your board blasted by a gun and it freezes to it, it feels like you have studs in the base when you 'try' to get off of the lift! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
queequeg Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 Never been waxed, never been sharpened. He claims its because he doesn't want to go faster. My board on the other hand, is waxed about yearly.Just for fun, my brother, dad, and I occasionally like to switch our boards around to try something new. I notice no loss in agility or the ability to initiate my turns when I am on his board... Well ... if you only tune your board once a year, the difference between your board and your dads is going to be Nil. You have to wax regularly or your base dries out. Otherwise, not everyone is going to be able to feel the difference between a well maintained base and a neglected one. Like I mentioned in a prior post, tuning and good equipment have a much more gratifying effect as you improve. (Obviously I've never seen you ride, but it is just my experience that the effects of good base maintenance are more obvious as you get better). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Gilmour Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 Well, to people on this BBS asking about tuning importance is about the same as asking the above question. If you ever prepped a new board strictly following the Dominator instructions... you would think you are being pushed from behind.... provided it is not -5 out. You can send a board to be professionally tuned. Send it to PTC in Massachusetts- they do a good base job...and lord knows your base really needs it.. it might even take many many passes through the machine to get old base burn out. but wax it yourself. Youll have to spend 2-3 hours to load the base by warm waxing. And though you can recycle wax... in my experience it isn't as good... it's like washing clothes in dirty water....they get a bit cleaner..better than not washing at all...but not really clean. Likely in PA... there aren't that many skilled tuners....and as I said before.. on loose granular... or frozen granular... it doesn't seem like a huge difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWriverstone Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 ....and as I said before...on loose granular...or frozen granular... it doesn't seem like a huge difference. ...and those are the ONLY conditions we ever see in the Mid-Atlantic (well, that and pure 7-11 slush!). Scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobdea Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 ...and those are the ONLY conditions we ever see in the Mid-Atlantic (well, that and pure 7-11 slush!).Scott in slush a good wax is key. the difference between cruising through cat tracks or walking, I hate walking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jp1 Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 bobdea, interesting observation about the F4 if using the wizard. I never felt slow as **** with the F4, and because it left the base 'shiny' like after a hot wax, I felt it was doing its job. It didn't seem to last more than a couple of hours until the very edges, about 1" to 1 1/2" in seem to dull, thus why I was waxing them every time out (between hot waxes). It sounds like you are using the Rays Way (wizard) system? If so, does it leave the same result (shiny, appearance wise) as hot waxing? The reason I ask is because I just got a used board that the base had the appearance of being spotty (dried out/not shiny in areas) and no matter what I did (or how many times & how much pressure) with the wizard, could not get the whole base to look shiny. Like the entire base was not taking the (Dominator Graphite Zoom/All Temperature) wax? I finally ended up hot waxing it last night, now the whole base has a shiny finish, as I have been use to in the past. I'll try to refrain from using the F4 and strictly use the wizard as a touch up also now, and see the results. John Gilmour," How do you get the F4 to work?.. I have tried for years unsuccessfully to make that stuff work as well as hot wax.. what's the trick??" I never said, nor do I feel it is as good as hot waxing, I used it as a way to 'touch up the wax worn off of the edges between hot waxes'. Thought process was, base was shiny again (not dried out looking) and most always glide as good or better than others, so felt it was better than not using anything !? By the way, most all of my riding is in Pennsylvania. I have noticed when I go to Vermont that the wax usually seems to last 2 to 3 times longer before the base starts to get that dull look. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotts.Scheinman Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 A proper tune and wax can be the difference between a great day and a crappy day. Read about it, learn, ask questions, do as much of it as you are able. It is important.Think Snow nothing else needs to be said Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carvedog Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 Safe is when you have more control, NOT when the snow has more control. Wise words. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kex Posted January 31, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 (can I say 29.031% then?) Ok... I know this is hard to believe.... but when you are on edge you are actually still putting P-tex on the snow. if you look at the area near your edge it will be very white and dry (since you never tune) this drags in a turn and makes it harder to turn.... Not waxing would have made my board grabby and when you are on a pitch as steep as Aztec... the "normal force" is near zero- so you don't have much weight to overcome a grabby board. So you really need a slick board to let you thread it until the edge grabs. Just trust us and believe that there wouldn't be a healthy tuning industry if tuning did nothing.. or...if you're a troll you can keep debating. I'm sorry if you think I am trying to be a troll. It is not my intention. I am merely trying to get an actual reason as to why waxing is important. As far as I can see, going faster is the only reason to wax. I'm not asking for opinions or unfounded statements, I'm asking for a technical explanation as to why its important. I do ride on more than PA conditions... I do yearly trips out west, usually to Sun valley, and typically visit Vermont once or twice in addition to some PA riding, so I have experience on all snow types and all conditions. I may not have as many years or boarding days per year under my belt as many of you, but that's why I'm asking you guys. I do have 14-15 years of boarding experience, which makes up almost 3/4 of my life, as well as being an engineering student, so I do feel that I know enough about the sport and physics to make a reasonable opinion. Speaking of physics, that explanation given makes no sense at all. You are correct in saying that on a steep hill, your normal force is low, but that actually means the wax has less of an effect on you. In this situation, gravity put its usual amount of force on you, but because of the extreme angle, it causes you go accelerate down the hill at a faster rate. A board with old wax on it will have a higher coefficient of friction(u) than new wax, but F(friction) = uF(normal). Since your normal force is lessened considerably, so is your force of friction, meaning the "smoothness" of the base has less effect. Slower board is not safer. The reason an unwaxed board is slower is because it does not slide as quickly on the snow. Hence the snow "grabs" it more to cause it to be slower. This means you must put more effort into making the board to what you want, because the snow is trying to hold it in place. Safe is when you have more control, NOT when the snow has more control. John G. your idea of making everyone wax the same is good, but then that puts people out of jobs and in this economy.............. Until there is a rule that states everyone must wax the same, everyone will be looking for that little edge in the competitions. With your board "grabbing" more, its the same as i was talking about above. It is the result of your board having a higher coefficient of friction due to old wax. It does not mean you have to put more effort into making the board do what you want. As carvers, we turn and control the board through angulation. And angulation, as you know, is raising a side of the board up vertically to make the edge bite. The direction of this motion is completely independent of the friction in your base. Also, friction is a constant force. It will not cause your base to suddenly grab the snow once you are going mach 2. It will be a constant slowing factor from when you first start moving until when you next stop. "Safe is when you have more control, NOT when the snow has more control." I completely agree with this statement, however I dont believe a new wax gives you more control. I'll relate it to walking down a sidewalk. With your argument, a new wax is better. This is equivalent to saying a lower coefficient of friction is better. Ice has a very low coefficient of friction, its what causes us to slip on it. Are you saying that you have more control over yourself on an icy sidewalk than on a clean one? The fact is you dont have more control on an icy sidewalk. Its actually better to be on a snowy sidewalk than an icy one, because we can grip snow with the treads on our shoes. This is the same reason we prefer hero snow to boilerplate. We can grip the snow with our edges better than we can grip ice. friction is our friend. Anyway, if anyone can give me an actual explanation as to why my logic is flawed, I would love to hear it. I feel I am open minded, and my views on edge sharpening have been changed. Obviously, considering that so many people are telling me that it is important, I cannot completely disregard their opinions, but what I am looking for is not unfounded claims, just an explanation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueB Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 Also, friction is a constant force. It will not cause your base to suddenly grab the snow once you are going mach 2. It will be a constant slowing factor from when you first start moving until when you next stop. This is true only on uniform surface. Snow conditions change a lot from one patch to another. Don't tell me you never experienced going just fine, then slowing abruptly just a split second later, when riding in spring conditions, on an ill prepared board. This is the same reason we prefer hero snow to boilerplate. We can grip the snow with our edges better than we can grip ice. friction is our friend. But not in the way you explain. On good snow board goes furter in, so it's the increased latteral plane that opposes the skid, not increased friction of the surface's texture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philfell Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 Kex you have been so far off in this entire thread, do you really beleive what you are saying or just laughing at the responses? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kex Posted January 31, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 Kex you have been so far off in this entire thread, do you really believe what you are saying or just laughing at the responses? I guess you didn't even bother to read when I said I wanted an explanation. Do I really believe what I'm saying? no, i just spent 20 minutes writing a reply for sh*ts and giggles -_- I'm sorry, but it's just hard for me to believe that a fresh wax is as important as you all say it is, in a sport where 90% of the time less than 20% of your base is touching the snow. Maybe if we were all people who bombed down the hill flat on our bases, but that's not what I do, and I assume its not what you do either. please dont post any more spam like this. If I'm far off, tell me whats off, don't just leave comments for no reason. your post in no way contributed to this topic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobdea Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 I guess you didn't even bother to read when I said I wanted an explanation. Do I really believe what I'm saying? no, i just spent 20 minutes writing a reply for sh*ts and giggles -_-I'm sorry, but it's just hard for me to believe that a fresh wax is as important as you all say it is, in a sport where 90% of the time less than 20% of your base is touching the snow. Maybe if we were all people who bombed down the hill flat on our bases, but that's not what I do, and I assume its not what you do either. please dont post any more spam like this. If I'm far off, tell me whats off, don't just leave comments for no reason. your post in no way contributed to this topic okay, I have a challenge for you, go to a large resort that is making snow and fine a gun that's running wet where the rest of gun are getting enough air. take a run at full speed on a waxed board first then a board that's not seen was in a decade. if you get up to the same speed on the unwaxed board........ this reminds me of the threads where people claim their asym factory primes and koflach boot are just as good as the new boards. wax makes the most difference on wet snow, luckily most snow is wet unless it's -20 your unwaxed board will work great on the coldest day of the year, just sharpen the edges to deal with the ice. The second it gets a touch wet you're ****ed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeoffV Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 This thread has been bugging me since it was posted. I've tried to refrain from posting but I can't take it any more. For those that are challenging if tuning and waxing makes a difference are most likely not at the ability yet to notice a difference between a good and bad tune. I'm sorry but I'm calling BS on that. I CAN notice a difference between no tune and a good 3 and 1 degree tune, base grind and wax. Honestly for those that are questioning if a tune makes a difference let me challenge you guys. How many years have you been carving? The only argument I will except is that you can get away with less of a tune in soft West coast conditions vs. East Coast but either way there is a difference and a benefit's to tuning. Give me the exact same board that has not been tuned for a few years and a tuned board and through me to wolfs on a scrapped down slope and you will see the difference. Or better yet, have Bordy test this out on a race course and let him tell you first hand how much of a difference a tune makes. Are you trying to tell me that Bode Miller doesn't need to tune or wax his skis because it wouldn't make a difference? There are people that make a living tuning and waxing skis/boards for racers. Tuning is far more critical for us free carvers than it is for jibbers. We are on edge 80% to 90% all day long. A warn down dull edge will not hold in chalk or icy conditions, period. Ok, I'm getting off my soap box now:o Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kex Posted February 1, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2009 Why is everyone talking about racing? no sh*t you are going to wax if you race, the whole point of racing is going fast. Did you even read what I was asking? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trailertrash Posted February 1, 2009 Report Share Posted February 1, 2009 Kex, I think you have it in your head that tuning doesn't matter and you are just waiting for somebody else to agree with you. Ease off the contradictory tone in your posts and you might find it gets a little easier here. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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