How important is a well-tuned board?

[Call me jack]

I would imagine that technique is more imortant than tune. Although in more high performance areas (ice) with more skill riders (or just all same skill level riders) equipment quallity would be the determining factor

As the demand on the riders technique and skill increases, and riders ability to meet that demand increases, the abillity for his equipment to perform at the level the rider is demanding becomes more important. Otherwise the riders overall performace will be compromised.

[Fastskiguy]

Just try to skid a bit on a board with no base bevel then put a 1 degree bevel on it an you'll see a huge difference. Yeah, 1 degree, not that much, only on the edge, a few mm wide, can't matter, right? Well...it does when you pivot the board. Makes no difference in a carved turn, can't tell'em apart. Kinda funny that way.

And for sharpness, well, that's important too.

[carvedog]

Some seem to be implying that not sharp edges shouldn't make that much difference.

Whether the snow is perfect or not, if I have just honed my edges ( I also never file between waxings but just use polishing stones or diamond stone if burred bad), my confidence factor in the edge lets me charge so much harder and the reward from the confidence is the edge doesn't go away.

Works for me.

Sharp matters. Smooth matters. Beveled base and edge matters. Wax - not so much as long as it's not too soft on a cold day. But it still does matter.

[Phil]

I think about this question all the time—the fundamental question of...what's more important for the *average* rider—the gear? Or technique? (Yeah, yeah...I know..."Both!")....

Scott

I have to say that I agree with the entirety of your post, unlike how I felt about your "black diamond" post. ;)

I would never go so far as to say that you should not have your gear tuned well, but I believe that people go overboard and put too much importance on it. I tune my boards once or twice a season (I am an ~80 day/year rider). When I used to race, I tuned them much more. As a freerider, I really don't see the need. Edges have to be pretty dull before they will not bite with good technique. In fact, I used to spend time with an ex-WC ski racer that often would detune the whole edge when we had hero snow just because there was too much bite for the level of skill that they had (my words, not theirs).

[philfell]

I think about this question all the time—the fundamental question of...what's more important for the *average* rider—the gear? Or technique? (Yeah, yeah...I know..."Both!")

But seriously—pick a sport, any sport—and chances are high that even if you're an "advanced amateur" in the sport...someone who is on the U.S. team will be able to take old, beat-to-hell gear (including a dull-edged board) and still kick your butt all over the place.

To me, this completely undermines the notion that gear is critical. My point is that while I certainly don't seek to use crappy gear...I've always believed that what's in your brain (and through extension, muscle memory) is WAY more important than the gear you're using. For example, what if your board's edges are dull, but you are a master of weighting the entire length of the edge perfectly...and perfectly shifting that weight to precisely where it needs to be at any given point in a turn? (No, I'm nowhere close to that!)

Now I suppose if you think you could kick an Olympic team member's butt if you're riding a sharp board and they're on a dull one...then that's different. :) But I doubt many here would say that...

Scott

I disagree. Just because someone with more skill than you can beat you on worse equipment DOES NOT mean equipment dosen't make a differance for YOU.

Tuning is important, if you have ever ridden a professionally tuned board you would never question this. Your boards ride better, this means you have more potential to have more fun. Who cares about weather someone else is better than you, it's your riding.

You can feel good boards when you ride them, just because Chris Klug could get on an old prime and beat you while you are on a new Kessler dosen't mean you should not think about getting a Kessler.

If I were to race in the Baja 1000 in the trophy truck catagory, I would still finish last, more than likely I would not finish at all. That still does not mean I would want a truck that is not maintained or had street tires on it.

[Bobby Buggs]

I have gone more than a season without a tune on my glass Coiler:smashfrea

If your relying on the tune you may be looking in the wrong place.

[philfell]

That *is* very well said and true...BUT...many people (in many sports) obsess far more over gear and arcane minutiae than technique. Gear can be lost or damaged...but technique is part of YOU forever.

Scott

Yes technique is the most important, but is a part of the total equation. Why focus only on technique when that is other things in your control that can make a differance in you riding?

Technique takes work and is something you will ALWAYS be working on. Other things you can do to make riding more enjoyable that do have an effect are things like tuning, having proper equipment (not only boards, boots and bindings, but good goggles, outerware, ect.). You should minimize things that could have a negitive impact on your riding experience, that way you get the most out of the time spent on the hill working on technique.

[bigdyno]

I think that skill development and good equipment are codependent. You will improve until you plateau on shabby gear. Improved gear will allow you to build skill, rinse, repeat. Once you have established skill, you will most likely be able to ride poor equipment better than when you did not have said skill level. I just think it is easier to develop skills with the best tools possible. You try photoshopping with an Apple IIE.

[ARCrider]

why question if tuning is necessary?

of course it is

why else would all those tuneshops be so busy?

[Phil]

why question if tuning is necessary?

of course it is

why else would all those tuneshops be so busy?

For the same reason that I keep bike shops busy: I suck at biking, so I try to compensate by putting a lot into my gear, so that I can get better. Better gear makes me better, right?

Again, I am not saying that tuning is not important, just over utilized in place of technique.

[carvedog]

For the same reason that I keep bike shops busy: I suck at biking, so I try to compensate by putting a lot into my gear, so that I can get better. Better gear makes me better, right?

Again, I am not saying that tuning is not important, just over utilized in place of technique.

Me no follow. How can a tune be used instead of technique?

Your sh!t is either tuned or it is not. Taking one minute to run your edges every time with a stone before you go out carving is not out of line either.

Tuning will definitely help you ride a little better in almost all conditions. Used doesn't mean over utilized.

I am just shocked that there is any division about this at all. It's not like we are sliding rails here. Most are carving. How can it not help?

[Phil]

How can a tune be used instead of technique?

It can't. That is my point. A lot of people worry so much about tuning all of the time and continue on with poor technique. I am saying spend more time developing the technique.

Taking one minute to run your edges every time with a stone before you go out carving is not out of line either.

Sounds easy enough, but I still just don't see where it is necessary. I like to just grab my board an go. I do not see taking a stone to a board as being the same as a tune, though.

I am just shocked that there is any division about this at all. It's not like we are sliding rails here. Most are carving. How can it not help?

How can it not help? Sure it can help.

I just think that a lot of people waste a lot of time and money on tuning that would be better spent riding and learning.

[gdboytyler]

get a PTC tune and you'll realize.

a waxed base is not nearly as important unless you are racing.

I disagree here. I got a PTC tune on my custom Donek 165 and Madd 158 SL. Couldn't tell the difference.

I still might send my new Coiler to PTC at the end of the season, but mainly because I don't want a local shop screwing up my board.

[NateW]

I am just shocked that there is any division about this at all. It's not like we are sliding rails here. Most are carving. How can it not help?

I've been A/B testing two boards with very similar specs (one an alpine prototype from a local builder) and it wasn't until the 2nd day that I realized how different the tunes were. On normal packed-not-icy snow the two boards rode very similarly, but when it turned icy, the 1-day-old board with the fresh tune and 1/3 bevel felt completely different from the not-tuned-in-20-days board with 1.5/2 bevel (bevel numbers are base/side).

Way better edge hold with the sharper angle and fresh tune. I can only guess whether the fresh tune or the sharper angle makes more difference, but the total difference was huge.

So basically I'm saying that I don't think it makes much difference until/unless it's icy. When it's icy a good tune makes a big difference. When it's soft, the difference is pretty subtle.

[Fleaman]

Bordy!, Bordy!, Bordy!

Make a video.

[philfell]

It can't. That is my point. A lot of people worry so much about tuning all of the time and continue on with poor technique. I am saying spend more time developing the technique.

Sounds easy enough, but I still just don't see where it is necessary. I like to just grab my board an go. I do not see taking a stone to a board as being the same as a tune, though.

How can it not help? Sure it can help.

I just think that a lot of people waste a lot of time and money on tuning that would be better spent riding and learning.

First weather a person tunes or not has nothing to do with their technique. But a person with bad technique will have a better time on a well tuned board. Plus most people tune in the evening, a time when they can not work on technique, so them tuning does not take any time away from working on technique. Your first point makes no sense.

If you keep your gear maintained, most people will do fine by running a course stone over their edges and it will make a differance.

To put things in a perspective you may understand. I ride mtn. bikes often in the summer. I by no means am a competitive bike racer, but I do like it very much. When by derailure is out of adjustment or "tune" my bike shifts like crap. Yes I can still ride it, I will enjoy riding it more if I tune it. Yes Lance Armstrong (yes Lance rides Mtn. bikes very fast he was 2nd place in the Ledville 100 last summer) can still beat me on a poorly adjusted Huffy even if I'm on the best bike in the world. Does this mean I should work more on my fitness and not care if my shifting is not adjusted properly? Or should I take the 30 seconds to adjust the barrell adjuster and fine "tune" things, then go riding?

A properly maintained machine allows a person to perform better regardless of the individuals ability. Will a good tune turn someone into a World Cupper? NO. But it will help that person perform better on their equipment.

[Phil]

First weather a person tunes or not has nothing to do with their technique. But a person with bad technique will have a better time on a well tuned board. Plus most people tune in the evening, a time when they can not work on technique, so them tuning does not take any time away from working on technique. Your first point makes no sense.

O.K, so when I used to see some at the mountain where I used to work tuning several times a week (and again, I am not talking about taking a stone to the edges) for extended periods of time DURING THE DAY and I would ask them why they are tuning the same board AGAIN, the answer was always the same, regardless of who I asked - it's icy today and my edges just aren't biting.

So let's assume they tuned three times a week and all totaled they took an hour (go to the tuning area, set up, tune, tear down, clean up, go back) each time. I would bet you that I could have taken three of those hours one week and two the following - still allowing them a full tune every two weeks, but working on technique for five hours that they would not have otherwise - they would have better edge hold on any conditions - and still have good edges.

Does that make sense?

Good Lord. All I am saying is that I know a lot of people that are too obsessed with keeping good edges but pay less attention to learning better technique. The guys that are disagreeing with me have all put their time in learning the technique. :rolleyes:

Let me remind you how I started in this discussion:

I would never go so far as to say that you should not have your gear tuned well...

[John Gilmour]

first off.

Wax...

If you don't your board will be harder to turn particularly in dicey situations. If you don't wax, you might not get the board around in time... eat it ..and get injured.

I landed with ALL my weight on my neck 9 days ago..30mph to ZERO into a mogul. If my edges had been sharp I likely would have ridden it out.

The guy who tunes my boards used to be .....me.... until I tried 5 well recommended people (Pro tuners) in the Aspen Valley- I found this guy, Peter, who tuned for the Swiss and Canadian National teams (Read ICE) and he does the best edges I have ever seen. Totally smooth yet sharp- with perfect blending and nose and tail bevel. I attribute the top 20% of my riding ability to his tuning expertise. The other tuners I tried... not worth it........at all a waste of time and money- I would have been better off buying a new file. Peter is the ONLY tuner I have found who I was happy to spend 1/3 of my grocery money on my tuning budget.

Years ago... maybe 1986, I was at Flatton, err Stratton in VT. Just before a big race. I was riding a SIMS x-2000- same model board Craig Kelley rode before he defected to Burton- he won the US Open on it- but with Koflack Valuga 4000 lites.

I was bombing down lower standard...and some guy blows past me on a Sims Kidwell (a much shorter board) he waxed... and I was left wondering why I was riding such a huge plank if a guy could dust me on a shorter board in soft boots. And to top it off he could ride that board anywhere.

So if you don't wax and tune your edges.. why are you even bothering to ride Alpine? You may as well ride a freeride deck that you wax and sharpen.

Anyway...how important is tuning?

It's totally a big deal. Your riding will plateau without a good tune...and a good tune can give you the confidence to totally bury your self into the boards g-forces with confidence.

I scored a nice place to live in Aspen... what were the biggest deals to me were the garage with the tuning bench- and the ski locker. So Peter.. nice guy, gets fired from Durrance ski shop. He's a tuner without a bench. Last thing I ever want is for this guy to leave Aspen Valley. I landed on my neck because I could not find the guy and my edges were dulled out.

So I make him a deal. He gets to use my garage and ski bench for tuning and in return he is my personal tuner at no charge to me. Everyday I go to my ski locker and every single stick is tuned and waxed.

Of all the things that make me happy about Aspen... this is one of the biggest deals to me. So today- I go out to get a little exercise.. doctor told me it was ok to ride (though not to work...go figure) - "just be careful..." and of course I'm excited to ride and start wondering how much I've lost... but I'm on a freshly tuned board. I make a similar mistake to teh one that landed me on my neck..and this time I am in softer snow that can not edge as well... but with the sharper edges- I just dip the nose in while in the air- it grabs (on a powder board) and the board augers in... and voila no "neck plant".

In case anyone does not believe in tuning.. you can come by my place... and I'll arrange for Peter to tune your board... You'll think you got a new higher performing model.. And like me... you just might find yourself riding better than ever before.

Peter is so into it... he's the "Serial Killer" of snowboard tuning... he lives it. He is as much into tuning as Eric Brammer is into teaching.

I'm going to hook him up with Thanos of Dominator to try all the new protype waxes.

I''ll expect him to tune a few people at SES and eventually nearly everyone by the end of the sesh.. but if anything stops him from tuning my boards- I'm locking the door.

If tuning didn't make a difference ... there is no way I would bother to set this guy up in my garage.

One other story. I worked for a bunch of hockey players who owned a BIke Shop- Back Bay Bikes in Boston. We needed a way to get loyal customers.. So I instituted a program.. Buy a board from us and you got free tunes..as many as you wanted... for the entire season.

Next year.. want unlimited tunes? Well.. you could buy an unlimited tune card for $250 or just plunk down cake for a new board with unlimited tunes... and of course... that is exactly what people did. And if you tune a board ALL the time.. tuning is quick because you don't get 4 season untuned burred up horror shows in to tune- just touch ups here and there.

The concept was simple. If you kept coming into the store ... likely you might buy something (they did- hats, gloves, shirts- all the softgoods stuff that was 50% margin) . It created store loyalty and customers would bring friends with them since they were going to the shop every week.

I told customers to tune their board before EVERY TIME THEY WENT OUT. So these two dorky kids really took me up on the offer. They tuned every time they went out.. So their boards rode EXACTLY the same EVERY time they went out. SO the board was not a variable... just the snow was...and as a result their technique progressed a lot faster. Because the edges were Always consistent. I rode with them.. and even though they were not athletes by any means... they still rode better than all the rest of my customers.... and I can only attribute that to having consistently tuned boards... Oh the boards??? ...nothing great.. 1992 Avalanche D-series which $hitty wave wood cores. $hitty Avalanche bindings and midrange Airwalk boots So it was not the board construction, gear, or athletics, or instruction.. it was just tuning consistency that made them better.

What happened to those two guys? One was hit by a Jeep when crossing Route 9 in Chestnut hill and ended up being a perfume sprayer in a department store- his brain was never the same.. and the other guy... he's probably a great rider still hunting for another store with unlimited tunes.

For me- Peter is my unlimited tune guy.. and as a result I keep getting better each season.

________

Ford Proving Grounds History

[shredliner]

first off.

For me- Peter is my unlimited tune guy.. and as a result I keep getting better each season.

Interesting story.

Any chance you could freelance Peter to Copper first week of April for the USASA Nationals?

He'd get a lot of business and I would LOVE to learn from someone like that.

[John Gilmour]

He likes all the carvers. But he has clients here too (mostly skiers). He is being flown to Switzerland in 2 weeks to tune there.

So long as you don't have a much much much nicer garage ...

________

Easy Vape

[queequeg]

I took an early season summit county trip (Nov-15) this season, and on the second day I got my board tuned at Precision Ski & Golf in Frisco, on the recommendation of another Bomber member. I typically tune myself, and think I do a reasonably good job though certainly not as good as a professional. I ride my own tunes 90% of the time. The next day we had good hardpack carving conditions at copper with just a tiny bit of ice showing through here and there, good conditions for feeling out the tune.

My board felt like a brand new board, that was way better than the board I had been riding before. I can carve on ice, with my own tunes but this was totally different. I could hook into turns violently and aggressively on the ice, with no concern whatsoever. It refused to skid when I tried (actually, somewhat irritating).

And probably most critically, the amount of feedback the board provided beneath me was incredible - and that is where I think the main benefit lies. When your base is perfectly flat and waxed, with your edges are razor sharp - the board lets you know the instant your edges have bit. It feels totally different. With a base that is not as flat as it could be and edges that are sharp but not that sharp, the feedback the board gives you feels "latent" and wishy-washy compared with the type of response after the tune from Precision. The place where I actually benefited from the tune was not so much in the apex of my turns but in my transitions - I was able to speed up my transitions tremendously because of the early feedback I was getting from my board. Even with somewhat dull edges, once the board is high on edge, it will probably grip provided good technique. But early in your turn initiation when you don't have that much inclination yet, sharp edges make a big difference and can help you get the most out of your technique.

I would actually argue that a properly tuned board is less forgiving than a somewhat out of tune board, and that beginners would probably be better off on something with edges that are less sharp (though not dull) to make the board feel a bit friendlier.

As far as technique vs tune goes. Yeah, you can't make up for bad technique with a good tune, but the idea that a good tune is irrelevant is way off IMO. It matters. And like good equipment, the better you get, the more of a difference it makes in your riding.

[philfell]

Interesting story.

Any chance you could freelance Peter to Copper first week of April for the USASA Nationals?

He'd get a lot of business and I would LOVE to learn from someone like that.

Ross Hindman and myself live in Copper now and will be offering our tech services during USASA Nationals.

We haven't determined cost yet, but it would include race prep the night before, plus on-hill support, ie overlays at the start, ect.

You would have to provide your wax and overlays, or if we used our wax we would have to figure out a wax budget for you and make it work with that. For X-Games the athletes Ross was teching for had over $150 in wax at wholesale prices on their boards. This is why our prices will not include the actual wax, because it can vary so much depending on how over the top you want to go with it.

We are already booked for the Open Class SBX day. Send me an email if you know anyone interested.

[SWriverstone]

I think the bottom line is this...

Between getting a good tune...and getting better technique, the former is a LOT easier.

It's human nature—our default mode—to seek out the path of least resistance, hence our obsession with fancy gear. (If a good tune and slick gear makes me better, cool! All I had to do was spend money!)

If I can have both good gear and good technique, absolutely—I'd like to! But given a choice, I'd take technique any day.

Maybe I can say it better this way: I still think my technique is mediocre (though I might look better than that at times). When I lose an edge mid-turn, I always assume the fault wasn't with the board or the edge or the snow...but with ME. And I really believe that 95% of the time, that's true!

Even if a world-class tune would reduce my mid-turn blowouts by 20%...I would never be happy knowing that I'm "better" because I have a world-class tune. I'm only happy knowing that I'm better because...I'm better! (And not the gear.)

:)

Scott

PS - BTW, I just submitted a $136 order for tuning gear at Tognar's! LOL

[Erik J]

I think the bottom line is this...

TUNE YOUR BOARD!

But given a choice, I'd take technique any day.

Unless I'm missing something, you don't have to choose one over the other....TUNE YOUR BOARD!

Even if a world-class tune would reduce my mid-turn blowouts by 20%...I would never be happy knowing that I'm "better" because I have a world-class tune. I'm only happy knowing that I'm better because...I'm better! (And not the gear.)

A "better" rider will realize that a tune is part of the knowledge of being a better rider....TUNE YOUR BOARD! Stop being stubborn, stop justifying, tune your board and practice!

PS - BTW, I just submitted a $136 order for tuning gear at Tognar's! LOL

Now you are a better rider for incorporating tuning into your arsenal of carving knowledge.....TUNE YOUR BOARD!

[michael.a]

So after reading this thread the bug bit my ass... what should I pick up for those who want to DIY?

Who makes the best edge/base sharpening tools? What about files or polishing stones, do I need them all? Ive only hotwaxed before and left the edges and base to the selfdeemed experts at the local shop, but now Im willin to drop the coin to do it myself.

The EC guys swear by everything offered by the swiss company Tooltonic..