roman Posted January 30, 2009 Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 i'm shure there are some good ones out there. but none i know is as good as any of the tooltonics. specially the 'roto-finish' works awesome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtslalom Posted January 30, 2009 Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 I love the comment about EC not having to tune their boards because they never ride on sub-par conditions. That's funny. Tuning your board is a must. I know a guy who gets down right crazy tuning his board with as much as a 7 degree bevel on the sides. He made me a believer after watching him ride mach 5 down the front face of whiteface on a hard day. To each their own but I know that I tune every 7 - 10 days on the snow. For those who don't think it is necessary you must not be from the east coast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roman Posted January 30, 2009 Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 normally i go with 1-2 times fully (stone)grind the base a season and a weekly treat with the diamonds to keep'em sharp. for me it works best that way in the swiss alps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
queequeg Posted January 30, 2009 Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 i'm shure there are some good ones out there. but none i know is as good as any of the tooltonics. specially the 'roto-finish' works awesome. Do you know of any place you can get these in the US? I've been trying to find someone who sells their stuff here but no luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kex Posted January 30, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 why question if tuning is necessary?of course it is why else would all those tuneshops be so busy? The reason for this is also being addressed similarly in another topic. Why do some people wear neoprene knee braces? For the most party, they don't help to support the knee unless they also have a metal structure built in. Its a psychological effect. if it makes you feel more confident on your knee, you wear it. With edges, if it makes you feel more confident about getting high on edge, you tune. I'm not saying there isn't a purpose to tuning. I believe I acknowledged how I can see a tuned edge helping in icy conditions when I posted the topic. But in hero snow, I think tuning your edges serves no purpose. Thats why I was asking for other peoples POV's first off.Wax... If you don't your board will be harder to turn particularly in dicey situations. If you don't wax, you might not get the board around in time... eat it ..and get injured. I'm sorry but I cannot think of a single situation where it is safer to have a waxed board than a non-waxed board. Maybe I'm just not understanding what you meant with this comment, so please explain this more in depth. As I see it, a non-waxed board will go slower, which is safer. period. Edges, I can see coming into play with safety, but not wax. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
queequeg Posted January 30, 2009 Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 I'm sorry but I cannot think of a single situation where it is safer to have a waxed board than a non-waxed board. Maybe I'm just not understanding what you meant with this comment, so please explain this more in depth. As I see it, a non-waxed board will go slower, which is safer. period.Edges, I can see coming into play with safety, but not wax. Wax is not just there to make you go faster. Waxing your base will make the board more agile on the snow, permitting you to initiate your turns more easily. Also, because the board is gliding more easily, you will feel your edges better than if you had not waxed, and you are always safer when you get more precise feedback from your board. Waxing your base increases control. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Gilmour Posted January 30, 2009 Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 Ross Hindman and myself live in Copper now and will be offering our tech services during USASA Nationals.We haven't determined cost yet, but it would include race prep the night before, plus on-hill support, ie overlays at the start, ect. You would have to provide your wax and overlays, or if we used our wax we would have to figure out a wax budget for you and make it work with that. For X-Games the athletes Ross was teching for had over $150 in wax at wholesale prices on their boards. This is why our prices will not include the actual wax, because it can vary so much depending on how over the top you want to go with it. We are already booked for the Open Class SBX day. Send me an email if you know anyone interested. Great...so I'll assume Peter will stay in Aspen... :) Besides... why do you guys need to go faster...You should just have one tuner making everyone run the same wax.. then rider will count for more. ________ Glass pipes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Gilmour Posted January 30, 2009 Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 Wax is not just there to make you go faster. Waxing your base will make the board more agile on the snow, permitting you to initiate your turns more easily. Also, because the board is gliding more easily, you will feel your edges better than if you had not waxed, and you are always safer when you get more precise feedback from your board. Waxing your base increases control. what he said.... Not waxing makes a board feel sluggish with drag. Certainly if your tires were inflated to 50% you wouldn't feel safer would you? Where wax makes the MOST difference other than flats is ironically on Steeps. You NEED GOOD WAX on real steeps- it makes it far easier to bring the nose around. ________ Extreme Vaporizer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tpalka Posted January 30, 2009 Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 As I see it, a non-waxed board will go slower, which is safer. period. That's why I prefer to drive a sputtering 1-cylinder junker rather than a faster and responsive car :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kex Posted January 30, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 Wax is not just there to make you go faster. Waxing your base will make the board more agile on the snow, permitting you to initiate your turns more easily. Also, because the board is gliding more easily, you will feel your edges better than if you had not waxed, and you are always safer when you get more precise feedback from your board. Waxing your base increases control. I'm going to have to disagree on this one. My dad has been riding the same Nitro board for 15 or 16 years. He has never tuned this board once. Never been waxed, never been sharpened. He claims its because he doesn't want to go faster. My board on the other hand, is waxed about yearly. Just for fun, my brother, dad, and I occasionally like to switch our boards around to try something new. I notice no loss in agility or the ability to initiate my turns when I am on his board... and I'll remind you - we are talking about the difference between a relatively fresh tune, and a 15 year old board that has never been tuned. I can see no way in which waxing helps to increase your agility... Especially from a carving standpoint where you turn by changing your angulation, not by skidding your board back and fourth. Perhaps you can give me a techinical description on how it increases your agility? what he said....Not waxing makes a board feel sluggish with drag. Certainly if your tires were inflated to 50% you wouldn't feel safer would you? Where wax makes the MOST difference other than flats is ironically on Steeps. You NEED GOOD WAX on real steeps- it makes it far easier to bring the nose around. I agree it makes your board sluggish, in fact that was my main point on why it was safer, because it causes you to ride slower. Somehow I think using tires at 50% as an analogy for old wax is a little bit of an exaggeration... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Gilmour Posted January 30, 2009 Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 ...............me I understand the snow might be different there. ________ COLORADO DISPENSARY Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carvedog Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 I agree it makes your board sluggish, in fact that was my main point on why it was safer, because it causes you to ride slower. If you are stuffing the nose in, you want to have a slower, stickier board? Sluggish is not good. Trust in this. And the truth shall set you free. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingCrimson Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 If you are stuffing the nose in, you want to have a slower, stickier board? Sluggish is not good. Trust in this. And the truth shall set you free. My Burton would do this if you were on a flat run flat basing, between ice and slush it felt completely binary, going between ass hauling and locking the brakes. The decelleration was so sudden that it was alarming. A week later with the snow even worse but fresh wax, it had a much more consistent feel over a wider range of snow. The new board...well I've never had it poorly waxed, plus it has the PTC structure :1luvu: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philfell Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 Slower board is not safer. The reason an unwaxed board is slower is because it does not slide as quickly on the snow. Hence the snow "grabs" it more to cause it to be slower. This means you must put more effort into making the board to what you want, because the snow is trying to hold it in place. Safe is when you have more control, NOT when the snow has more control. John G. your idea of making everyone wax the same is good, but then that puts people out of jobs and in this economy.............. Until there is a rule that states everyone must wax the same, everyone will be looking for that little edge in the competitions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loupa5 Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 Snow...whats snow! We don't get snow in the east coast, more like packed ice. The other day I wax my board with what ever I could find. Then after about three to four runs at the local slopes I was getting of the lift and I about did a face plant. I'm not sure why but I think the wax froze. The board had no slide..it felt like someone laid a carpet underneath me. Really scared the sh#t out of me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zone Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 I love the comment about EC not having to tune their boards because they never ride on sub-par conditions. That's funny. Tuning your board is a must. I know a guy who gets down right crazy tuning his board with as much as a 7 degree bevel on the sides. He made me a believer after watching him ride mach 5 down the front face of whiteface on a hard day. To each their own but I know that I tune every 7 - 10 days on the snow. For those who don't think it is necessary you must not be from the east coast. That's one guy's opinion riding out West. I know the Swoard guys are pretty fanatical about tuning their boards and don't mind riding icy conditions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zone Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 I love the comment about EC not having to tune their boards because they never ride on sub-par conditions. That's funny. Tuning your board is a must. I know a guy who gets down right crazy tuning his board with as much as a 7 degree bevel on the sides. He made me a believer after watching him ride mach 5 down the front face of whiteface on a hard day. To each their own but I know that I tune every 7 - 10 days on the snow. For those who don't think it is necessary you must not be from the east coast. That's one guy's opinion riding out West. I know the Swoard guys are pretty fanatical about tuning their boards and don't mind riding icy conditions. And you're right. east coast you don't tune you're toast (hey that rhyme sort of...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carvingchef Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 It’s amazing how a thread that started with “How important is a well-tuned board?" shifted to “what’s more important tuning or technique” each individual can decide for himself or herself, you will never have everybody agree on something<O:p</O:p going back to the original question a well tuned board is important and it makes a difference, more noticeable on icy condition than on hero snow but it does make a difference, I am an intermediate carver at best and when I go on hero snow I am a better carver, so snow conditions make a difference too, but usually I don’t know the snow conditions until I get there, however if my edges are sharp that doesn’t make me a worse rider on hero snow but it sure helps if it’s icy. If my riding sucks on a board with dull edges, it could be me or it could be the board, if my board is properly tuned and I still suck, then I know it’s me and I’ll work on my technique, if I know my board is tuned I never worry about the tuning while I’m riding I just work on my technique and having fun in the process<O:p</O:p <O:p</O:p Maybe not perfectly analogous but consider the difference between poor and high quality cutlery. Perhaps a resident chef hear on Bomber could weigh in. Sharpened cutlery, tools and the like bring real pleasure when they operate efficiently. Most knives will cut, just a matter of how well. <O:p</O:p That is a different analogy and I don’t know if it was directed at me but I keep my knives extremely sharp, it makes cutting a lot easier, precise and faster, there are probably a lot of chefs out there with better knife skills then me but if you give them a dull knife and a leg of veal and give me a really sharp knife and a leg of veal I promise you I can de-bone that sucker better and faster than they can, the dull knife just doesn’t cut it<O:p</O:p <O:p</O:p My $ .02<O:p</O:p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pokolikrat Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 Very. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Gilmour Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 Slower board is not safer. The reason an unwaxed board is slower is because it does not slide as quickly on the snow. Hence the snow "grabs" it more to cause it to be slower. This means you must put more effort into making the board to what you want, because the snow is trying to hold it in place. Safe is when you have more control, NOT when the snow has more control. John G. your idea of making everyone wax the same is good, but then that puts people out of jobs and in this economy.............. Until there is a rule that states everyone must wax the same, everyone will be looking for that little edge in the competitions. Ha Phil, A very famous racer from the 1970's once told me. If you're not cheating you really aren't racing. I know you could never get guys to use the same wax... likely you'd bust them with cera f in a coke vial... ________ Portable Vaporizer Reviews Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
photodad2001 Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 Snow...whats snow! We don't get snow in the east coast, more like packed ice. The other day I wax my board with what ever I could find. Then after about three to four runs at the local slopes I was getting of the lift and I about did a face plant. I'm not sure why but I think the wax froze. The board had no slide..it felt like someone laid a carpet underneath me. Really scared the sh#t out of me. Not scraping enough off. Too much wax can do that. I also like to take one of those green scotch brite sorta scrubby thingies and run it up and down after scraping. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Gilmour Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 snipped...I can see no way in which waxing helps to increase your agility... Especially from a carving standpoint where you turn by changing your angulation, not by skidding your board back and fourth. Perhaps you can give me a techinical description on how it increases your agility? Somehow I think using tires at 50% as an analogy for old wax is a little bit of an exaggeration... (can I say 29.031% then?) Ok... I know this is hard to believe.... but when you are on edge you are actually still putting P-tex on the snow. if you look at the area near your edge it will be very white and dry (since you never tune) this drags in a turn and makes it harder to turn. Today I carved Aztec while riding with Ray S. (Virus Ray who was on his metal board all dialed) I was in 2008 soft boots, 2007 soft bindings and on a 2005 powder split tail board If I had not tuned and waxed...friends would be making funeral arrangements for me. Not waxing would have made my board grabby and when you are on a pitch as steep as Aztec... the "normal force" is near zero- so you don't have much weight to overcome a grabby board. So you really need a slick board to let you thread it until the edge grabs. If you don't believe me- get me a plane ticket to PA- and take me to a slope at your resort the same pitch as Aztec. I'll send you down it on an untuned unwaxed board. Then I'll carve it on my tuned waxed board. This will never happen because there is nothing steep in PA other than ice formations along the highway- and AFAIK they don't groom those. Just trust us and believe that there wouldn't be a healthy tuning industry if tuning did nothing.. or...if you're a troll you can keep debating. Seriously... got to svst.com buy yourself a 2 degree side edge, and a laser cut file. Splurge for a nice diamond stone. And while youa re at it...get a nice ceramic white polishing stone. Watch several decent online tuning vids. Watch ski tuning vids ONLY not snowboard tuning vids... most of the snowboarders have no f'ing idea of what they are doing. like this one by some idiot who tells you to put a 2-3 degree base bevel in yoru board... (you can throw the deck away after that) Skilled carvers ... you can cringe when watching this.. he suggests 2-3 degree bottom bevel!!! Holy crap... can we say "snow saucer"? Fricking bozo is using electrical tape to make a bevel...and of course it won't be consistent.. he even says use scotch tape... moron. He says the boards are sharp from the factory.... not....... unless you order a Madd with a PTC tune. How much base bevel is ok?? very little for carving.. You get almost a degree off of any sanding belt. Peter says .3-.5 at most meaning it will be .5 near tip and tail and then down to .3 and then likely flat between the feet. most schitty tuning... this guys end result would be worse than factory..lol.. I would be so pissed if this guy tuned my board. I have had people (Often unknowledgeable ski tuners) tune my carving boards and put a 2 degree base bevel in them...and I just have to throw them away. This guy is a much better tuner... ski guy... You likely won't need the super aggressive panzer file. I don't agree with the full length stroke... your file will likely clog and cut unevenly at the end. - IMHO I think 6-12 inch strokes are plenty. tune with your ears- listen to that cutting sound of the file on the edge. use less pressure as you continue to hone the edge and shorter smother cuts. Practice on a schitty pair of old skis and then file your edges.. Throw away that 15 year old snowboard piece of garbage and get a job bagging at a local supermarket for 3 weeks and buy a better board (last years model at discount) and tune it from day one. Oh.. and tuning... makes no difference on loose dry granular... not as far as I can tell. But you will notice it once you ride real snow fast on good terrain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingCrimson Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 Not scraping enough off. Too much wax can do that. I also like to take one of those green scotch brite sorta scrubby thingies and run it up and down after scraping. My old man told me that it's only necessary to do so with base structure. Apparently, file cards work too. Any thoughts on this? Gilmour- With all due respect, as far as I know, bevelling that much is perfectly acceptable for a jib board. At least he isn't recommending that the edges be rounded, which is very common down here. IMO, expecting him to tune the board for only carving is the same as reading a photo caption for a resort's daily photos that says "Hard carving" and expecting to see anything but a softbooter skidding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Gilmour Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 yeah.. I now and most snowboard tuning videos are for park boards on youtube... that is why for carving you should ignore that stuff.. after all this is for BOL not transworld. as for clearing a base, scrape well. and you can use a super open structure material that looks like red scotch brite (the grens tuff tends to pollute the base and can dull edges) .. I prefer to use rotobrushes to clear out wax from the structure. use hte brass horse hair one at slow speed one pass light pressure, then go to the regular horse hair brush at medium speed with water and more pressure, then use a grey nylon rotobrush at top speed full pressure with misting water, finally like 20 passes at high pressure with water using the white brush.. Panasonic drills are nice for this.. fast recharging packs and they don't overheat like some others... but someone might know of a better drill as this was from like a decade ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tenorman Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 hi kex i agree with all the excellent posts above extolling the benefits of tuning but yet you seem unconvinced. however, all the posts concentrated on the performance and safety benefits of tuning but none mentioned the potential cost savings. being an inveterate cheapskate i try to make my equipment last as long as possible. regular waxing actually hardens your base making it more scratch resistant so over the long haul you save money on base repairs and grinds. if you visually inspect your edges regularly, you will see tiny little burrs and scars that accumulate overtime if you don’t remove them regularly. eventually they become case-hardened to the point where a file just skips over them without biting and you will be forced to spend hours with a diamond stone removing the case-hardening before you can even think about using a file to restore the edges. at that point the edges will be too dull for anything except soft snow conditions and even YOU will have to consider sharpening them. it takes less than a minute to run a stone along both base edges and side edges before you put your board away after riding. even if i never hit any rocks or hard ice i still stone the edges as it removes the day’s accumulation of possible case hardening and it can restore the edges to close to its original sharpness. obviously, if conditions are sub-optimal (i.e. ice, rocks etc.) you will have to make more than 1 pass with the daily maintenance stone but even 2 or 3 passes per edge won’t cost you more than 5 minutes a day. it will likely save you from having to pay for expensive stone-grinding of the edges if they get case-hardened to the point where they can’t be easily (or even possible to be) restored by hand. i also wax EVERY time I ride. it may seem expensive but then again I am a cheapskate and want my base to last—i am sure it has saved me money in the long run. there are things to do to mitigate the cost of frequent waxing. the best money saving tip i ever saw was posted on bomberonline about 10 years ago by SEAN MARTIN of DONEK snowboards. if i recall correctly, he posted that he only waxed his entire board about once a year. however, he also posted that he regularly waxed his board on the binding platform area (from a few inches in front of the front binding to a few inches behind the rear binding.) also he said he applied the wax a bit more generously along both edges. his rationale being that the edges and the area between the feet used up the most wax and that little wax was required toward the tip or tail. in addition when he scraped his snowboard he saved the wax scrapings in a pot for future use (or reuse.) he mentioned that in most cases very little gets absorbed and that most of the wax ends up on the floor anyway and that everyone would save their wax scrapings if they ever took the time to calculate how much the stuff costs that ends up in the garbage. KEX, hopefully this appeal to your wallet along with the previous excellent posts about increased performance and safety will cause you to at least reconsider your position on tuning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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