Softboot Racing

[Neil Gendzwill]

Don’t think hard boots are well suited to modern bx courses. 

[scottishsurfer]

The biggest thing for me id like to see would be a much much much greater variety of turns where no single set up has an advantage over the whole course, think a formula 1 track vs a nascar oval.

[Jack M]

13 hours ago, bigwavedave said:

I haven't read through all this, but I'm pretty sure you can ride whatever you want in USASA races. I haven't been in quite a while, but you used to see a lot of competitors racing gates, some placing pretty well and occasionally winning, in softboot set-ups.

These would often be competitors whose "specialty" might have been halfpipe or slopestyle, etc, but they were going for the overall snowboarder award competition. Do they still have that in USASA?

You also used to see alpine boards racing and winning in BX, but I think they banned them along with speed suits and ponytails.

Indeed most kids racing gates in USASA are on softboots, as is to be expected.  The ones who are serious about getting on the podium at nationals* or going further with racing are on hardboots.  (* that is, if there are other kids in their age group on hardboots.  I didn't see any kids younger than 13 on hardboots this year)

I've said this elsewhere but here at Sugarloaf at Carrabassett Valley Academy, there's a group of kids who went to nationals last year and saw that the fastest kids were on hb's, so they got themselves on hb's this year.  They asked me to help coach, it was great.  They generally cleaned up in the USASA Maine Mountain Series this year.

I'm with BlueB and Neil, I don't think hb's are banned in FIS BX, and I assume USASA would follow suit.  I do recall hearing that square tail boards were banned for safety reasons.  Makes sense.  I think hb's are a disadvantage in BX because they're not as good for recovery if you get into trouble, and that's part of why you don't see them anymore.  Silver medal in the 2006 Olympics went to a hardbooter from Russia, and it was a very close race.

I think there is a prize for overall USASA snowboarder, but I can't find it on their site.

[Emdee406]

The courses changed over the years which definitely put hardbooters at a disadvantage. I recently competed in an SBX race, and there were 2 pretty fast guys on roundtail F2 alpine boards, but the didn't make it past the quarter finals.
@Jack M is right, the FIS banned square tail boards for safety reasons after a couple of bad injuries, that's the point that many alpine boards mysteriously started having more rounded back ends.  

[charliechocolate]

How are square tails unsafe or cause injury? I just can't imagine it or maybe the ban was a knee-jerk reaction to a freak accident.

[BlueB]

Tail corner into rib cage? 

Anyways, why would one want to race BX on a sqare tailed board anyways? I wish all my boards had slightly rounded off tails... 

[Emdee406]

People were hit by board corners, and people getting suddenly thrown switch were catching their tails and going down hard. 

3 hours ago, BlueB said:

Tail corner into rib cage? 

Anyways, why would one want to race BX on a sqare tailed board anyways? I wish all my boards had slightly rounded off tails... 

People were using their GS boards, which of course had square tails. 
The early courses had no design consistency, so one week it would be super flowing and mellow, and the GS guys would crush it, the next course was like a park run, and the freestylers would get the top 10 spots. 

[softbootsurfer]

OK...I feel somewhat familiar with running gates, back in 60's skateboarding, setting/running cones, 16 years in aspen running Slalom and some GS, not aware of anything that made me a better Carver than those two...Surfing though, on a point break, is a different Line, as is the way I like to Carve...same reason, why, way back, a lot of folks were upset with the Snowboard Gate sets, too much Ski sets...I don't like BX, breaks the line while you're flailing through the air...plus the crash, I saw this guy take, at the Milkland X games, scared me to death, of course, nothing but admiration for those folks! Banked are fun and the ones they have here, are fun on the way home...the Fantasy gate sets, I have in mind, would be between what is now a Sl and a GS, you would use as much contour as the hill would allow, think more Surf, less Gate ...and that is never gonna happen ...really, the SB'ers can, have, use any Nastar course, the ones I've done here,  through the years work just fine for running gates in SB, knowing someone, made it a cheap thrill eh ?...someone or something, that makes us turn, such as a set of gates, can help us learn a lot, in a short period of time...

[John Gilmour]

On 3/28/2020 at 2:24 PM, pokkis said:

Some years back one lady riding with soft boots beat on time most of men on race track

Remember who this Burton rider was ?

Petra Mussig..I think. Burly beefy German Chick. Andy Coghlan ran in softies for a long time.  I was at a US open Banked slalom (maybe 1997 )and Terje was the forerunner  and slaughtered everyones qualifying times by well over a second. Everyone in HB  was like "****ing, Terje just give him the trophy and cancel the race!" So funny.

Here are my 2019/2020  soft boot racing results. 

https://skiracing.nastar.com/index.jsp?pagename=results&page=comp&compid=1002169

The gear....not haha race optimized except look a Booster Strap!

 Boots:  3 season old 32 Binary Boa 9.5Mens with booster Straps, and 2005 Superfeet custom cork insoles,  2019 Icebreaker Merino Men's Ski+id OTC Socks (totally love these! They grip inside the boots and never seem to smell like anything than delightful fresh laundry).

Bindings: 2015 Union FC forged carbons with 2018 carbon highbacks- running "Gilmour bias" 1/4" inset on front toe. 45-42  degrees front foot and I think 26 degrees rear with 1/2" toe overhang rear. 21" stance

Board: Jones 156cm Hovercraft (with a pathetic  122cm of effective edge) 3 degree side 1 degree bottom bevel, shit loads of detuning ...or the nose grabs and shimmys like crazy....to make it really feel like 105cm of effective edge).

Pretty short powderboard to run NASTAR  GS on. I was bummed I didn't get any Hardboot race times in this season for the ranking as the Snowmass finals were canceled and they will have to run off my slow Powerboard results....still might be ok since I still got Platinums which was not easy- I had to hop turns, set very high and early, and then get into saving bacon mode once it started to get out of hand .

 

So this year was ALL SOFTBOOT POWDERBOARD RACING... a new category....might need a new handicap. Better runs were at Snowmass as some Aspen runs were late in the day and heavy rutted.

Now earlier I had been misclassified as a Telemark skier (at Aspen MT.) , had to redo those runs,,,, so if they have different classes for skiers (of course also for handicapped skiers on mono) why not a race equipment vs recreational equipment (soft boot) for snowboarders?

Edited April 2, 2020 by John Gilmour

[pokkis]

1 hour ago, John Gilmour said:

Petra Mussig..I think.

Åshield Lofthus

[John Gilmour]

Oh yeah forgot about her. Amy Rhodes (Rose)  was another fav- that girl had guts- but she broke her back.

[dhamann]

On 3/29/2020 at 4:53 AM, patmoore said:

take the ski course on skier's left or the snowboard course (stubbies) on the right

no wonder the handicaps! i told myself to try to Okemo for daily nastar but never happened. definitely next year.

 

the evening adult race league nastar course sets at crotched and definitely pats peak are more appropriate to slalom boards, or softies. i ran a K68 once or twice, but SB most weeks. way too much skidding with a GS board except for the last four gates. reference back to the reason for choosing the appropriate gear in bx; recovery. i'll also point out that the pats peak course is set over the top of rather significant ruts from previous training. it was downright dangerous at some times and horrible beyond being challenging. good thing most of the skiers/riders are really good and can navigate around potential season ending injuries. from what i can see of @patmoore video above... that looks like more of a gs set course to me. the Innkeepers race might be set with more flow intentionally like an EICSL race, so kind of turns into a wax race at that point.

 

would it be fair to say that there isn't any nastar GS course or usasa bx course set that's going to compare to a high level WC course (snowboard specific)? so equipment choice ultimately shouldn't matter. maybe it's more about tuning and maintenance along with technique and skill with regards to us regular folks. and of course luck with a side of liquid encouragement. there's stiffer/softer equipment and boards with large/small sidecuts in both HB or SB. read that one again. each have their own advantages/disadvantages. also have their own limits. also have their own fun factor. to each their own and go with what's most comfortable under your feet. no excuses. i try not to beat myself up too much about chasing gates. especially in a recreational setting. we're still snowboarding. have fun. fourth place, come and get it.

[Jack M]

10 minutes ago, dhamann said:

would it be fair to say that there isn't any nastar GS course or usasa bx course set that's going to compare to a high level WC course (snowboard specific)? so equipment choice ultimately shouldn't matter.

I can tell you that once I got on a real GS board, my times dropped significantly in beer league (NASTAR) at Shawnee Peak.  Previously was using freecarve boards like Proteus 175 and Nirvana 174.  I feel like the course at Shawnee is pretty legit.  Sustained pitch all the way, good amount of offset, never a wax race. 

[dhamann]

@Jack M ya but what socks did you ride?  I liked the course sets at Shawnee when I did either usasa or the moonlight challenge thing. The Maine series usasa courses were fun and the only time I could race a true GS board. River was awesome too. Clean courses with a couple outlier gates. A couple. Not my experience at some other mountains. 

 

The space on a trail has a lot to do with a set too. Or building bx courses for 90lb kids and sending it with 200lbs+. It can be sketchy to race but also a different kind of challenge just to ride for adults.

[Jack M]

Virus Xylonator socks, of course.  I think the USASA trail at Sunday River is pretty legit too.  I've seen the Olympic trail at Park City, I think it's comparable.

[scottishsurfer]

So further to my previous point my ideal slalom course would something that has a multiple different styles of turns where no single set of hard/soft/long/short combination has an outright advantage throughout the whole course. Id like to see multiple different radius of turns vastly varying amounts of horizontal and vertical offset between gates hell i wouldnt even be adverse to after a couple of fast sweepers having to then rip and hold a turn back up the hill to make the next gate. Id also like to varying speeds from tight and slow to high speed swoopers. Id also prefer courses to be much longer maybe 2mins in length. Its never going to happen but a man can dream of racing on interesting and wildly different courses atleast .

[Emdee406]

The courses at Park City can be interesting... it’s a dogleg so you can’t see the last half of the course, and the ‘inside’ course is very different to the outside. 
The guys who set it seem to love to put more offset on the last 4 too, so you really have to crank them...always fun while trying not to twat yourself on the skier gates!

Consequently I haven’t ridden it in hard boots, or anything over 160cm, in about 10 yrs, but Platinums are still very achievable. 
(Below on a 152cm powder board in softs)

Somewhere like Steamboat, where the hill is straight though, you’d definitely be faster on a GS set up  I rode that one on an SG 170 and there was no comparison  

 

[west carven]

howdy

yeah! so why is there no softboot racing? it could be a gateway for kids to maybe be thinking about alpine.

this whole thing about alpine vs softboots will beat your ass is stupid. don't be an alpine jerk it turns softbooters off.

maybe softboot racing would get kids to learn how to carve and not jib/jumping. how many vid of u.s. kids carving have you seen? 

[Atom Ant]

I have long maintained but usasa should restrict hard boots through some certain age groups. It would allow the kids with natural talent to shine through the kids with richer parents, and probably end up attracting a broader range of children interested in trying it (racing in gates).  Parents with talented kids would get an early heads up, since all age groups are represented in one race they get a look at the hard boots gear, and so happy opportunity to attempt at least to plan ahead.  

I only shake my head when I see kids below the age of 16 on custom fully plated boards and $1,000 boots.  These parents want the best for their children, but they perhaps are ignorant to what they're contributing to; more at fault are the governing bodies who keep such a loose rule set as to allow such a thing.

Always will be a rich kid sport.... But good God.

 

[Jack M]

On 7/9/2021 at 6:13 PM, west carven said:

yeah! so why is there no softboot racing? it could be a gateway for kids to maybe be thinking about alpine.

There is lots of youth and highschool softboot racing in USASA, which is why we support them through subscriptions and advertising on this forum.  It's part of our Mission Statement.  In fact, USASA gets more participation in gates than halfpipe.

January 2020 USASA Maine Mountain GS.  The only other event that day was SL.  There was no freestyle or BX event bringing this crowd. (picture does not contain the whole field)

On 7/9/2021 at 6:13 PM, west carven said:

this whole thing about alpine vs softboots will beat your ass is stupid. don't be an alpine jerk it turns softbooters off.

Of course one doesn't put it condescendingly if one wants to encourage kids to try racing on alpine gear.  But it's a fact borne out in every race.  All else equal, experienced kids on hardboots simply dominate.  That is how the kids I help coach at Carrabassett Valley Academy came to be interested in hardboots - they went to nationals on softboots thinking they were all that, and got smoked by hardbooters.  Because they are competitive by nature, they wanted a piece of that action.  Others are ok with forfeiting to hardbooters because they only use racing as cross-training for boardercross.

On 7/9/2021 at 9:22 PM, Atom Ant said:

I have long maintained but usasa should restrict hard boots through some certain age groups. It would allow the kids with natural talent to shine through the kids with richer parents, and probably end up attracting a broader range of children interested in trying it (racing in gates). 

I think that would reinforce the perception that hardboots are weird or that they don't even exist.  Younger kids in hardboots are typically new at hardboots, or they don't have the muscle to get the most out of them, and don't really have an advantage yet.  Last year there was a new hardbooter in 7th grade at CVA.  His parents are both teachers, and he was using free hand-me-down and purchased-used equipment.  Hardly rich.  He's into it and will have an advantage over other kids who come to hardboots later.  A certain 15 year old we both know has been in hardboots since he was 7 and I think he's a great hope for US racing.  I wouldn't call his family rich.

[Atom Ant]

Sometimes I think this forum tends to be overly focused on the specifics of what someone might have written and perhaps as a result miss the overall message... or at least not clearly infer its understood in responses.  Jack, you personally have done more for this sport than most anyone so I never, and never will, question your desire to see it grow and thrive.  I think we can agree, however, that this sport is maddeningly expensive to participate in simply as a rec rider, let alone a aspiring racer.  My comment was more geared towards an overall desire to reduce the cost in some way for youth to evolve into competitive racers.  I personally experienced this as a youth-- my parents could not even come close to affording alpine equipment and told me to forget it.  So I did.  Later, when I graduated college I self funded and did pretty damn well.  

There needs to be some guard rails put up in my opinion, less this become a equestrian-esc pursuit.   Your point is true about kids getting whooped at Nationals and then wanting alpine gear--my point is many of those kids have parents who are already stretching the budget as it is.  Throw in plates to the mix... many just toss the towel in (and I know several personally).  There should be a leveling, equipment wise, to whatever extent deemed appropriate (my suggestion--which isn't dissimilar to auto racing / karting, or some other... I am speaking to the overarching issue here more than anything).   Make the sport more affording, if never "affordable" to as many as possible for as long as possible.  Create a glidepath to an AllFlex beyond a parent's check.  Much of anyone's success in a sport is mostly circumstance (Malcom Gladewell's book "Outliers" speaks to this well) and that will never change; in our case: living near a mountain or having a second home near by, having parent's who may meet the colloquial definition of "rich", access to a program--perhaps a private school, and so on...

USASA should be creating a glidepath to FIS--they claim they do and are correct to some extent; my point is for sports where expense and the ability to overcome it play a large part in results, where possible, they should be looking at how to ensure access is at its greatest for as long as possible, or appropriate.  I am not sure they are doing this to the extent they could.

I feel we might be a bit closer on this, in a general sense, than is being recognized.

I agree on the "hope" you mention, but absolutely will not even broach commenting on anything else regarding that in a public response as people are keen enough to connect the dots and that would be incredibly inappropriate.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Jack M]

Thanks for the kind words, AA.

2 hours ago, Atom Ant said:

There needs to be some guard rails put up in my opinion, less this become a equestrian-esc pursuit.

It already is and has been for a while.  Skiing is the same way if not worse.  That goes for racing and freestyle.  The guardrails you would need to implement would have to limit not just equipment but also training and travel.  It's simply not going to happen.

The reality, generally speaking, is that beyond the "weekend program" or USASA level, a teen is simply not going to be competitive if they are not attending a private academy, training on hill 6 days a week, and traveling around the country to events.  On-snow summer camps give another advantage.  After all those expenses, adding a couple of plates to your bag is a rounding error.  At that point the difference between a used pair of UPZs and a new pair of Mountain Slopes is negligible.  It takes money.  A lot of it.  Or a ton of work, sacrifice, and creative fundraising, a la Justin Reiter living in his truck.

If you cannot pay to play at the NorAm and FIS levels, you can stay in USASA and NASTAR your whole life as a weekend warrior.  Nothing wrong with that at all, it's fun.  It's just an expensive sport.  Like horses or sailing or motorsports.  Even more traditional sports like hockey and soccer become prohibitively expensive at the elite level.

[Dave Winters]

Great discussion.

For what it's worth, the Slash and Burn Banked Slalom in Steamboat officially bans hardboots. And there's even a kind of gentlemen's agreement on not using BX race boards. I think the idea is to level the playing field as much as possible to make it a test of raw  talent rather than gear.

Edited July 18, 2021 by Dave Winters

[Atom Ant]

Dave Winters,

I am conceding the win to Jack, as reality is, well... what it is.  However, the Slash and Burn rules and only particular gents agreement is what I'm talking about.  Not hard to set limits for youth through, say, age 12 or whatever in USASA to level the playing field and allow talent to rise before further progression becomes a matter of money (primarily, in my opinion).  I think it would help in the development of third party financial support, and maybe just keep the sport more about riding "fun" for a bit longer before serious competition interviens (or seriously competitive parents).  

Jusy dreaming here.  This ship has sailed.

 

[Jack M]

5 hours ago, Atom Ant said:

Not hard to set limits for youth through, say, age 12 or whatever in USASA to level the playing field and allow talent to rise before further progression becomes a matter of money (primarily, in my opinion).

Not hard, more like impossible.  You would have to somehow limit overall equipment spending then, not just hardboots.  Because the kid on brand new top-shelf gear is going to beat the kid on the 3 year old beater low-tech gear, all else equal.

Check out a Little League game sometime.  There will be a number of kids swinging $500 composite bats.

Several years ago I went to a coaching lecture given by Bob Bigelow, the only Massachusetts native NBA first round draft pick. He said how youth sports and parents collectively lost their minds the day that Tiger Woods became the youngest Masters' winner at the age of 21 in 1997, and Nike ran a commercial showing him driving a golf ball at age 4.  You might be interested in Bob's books. https://www.bobbigelow.com/solve-youth-sports-problems.htm

 

5 hours ago, Atom Ant said:

further progression becomes a matter of money (primarily, in my opinion).

That's kind of offensive.  The talent has to be there.  I get it, a kid with talent but no money is out of luck, but, life's not fair.  A kid with money and no talent is not going anywhere either.