Carving progression

[Québec man]

Maybe this video help for legs and knee 

It is SWOARD technic...maybe help...??

Edited December 24, 2016 by Québec man

[Corey]

Nice discussion! 

"Driving the knees" - I'm talking about tilting your boot tops towards the inside of the turn. As mentioned, thinking about pressing the sidewall of the board into the snow is what opened this world for me. For someone else; they thought of a boot full of water, and tipping it to pour the water out. 

Because of our forward-facing stance, you drop your knees down on toeside, but on heelsides it's more of a tilting action where you move your front knee sideways. (Left knee towards left for regular, right knee towards right for goofy)

The key is to break all these tips into discrete steps, like was done in the clinic. Right now you have so much to do/think about that it's easy to get lost. Pick one thing and make that change for a run until it's comfortable. Then add one more. And etcetera. 

And another huge thanks to Alan (Sunsurfer) for videoing that clinic! 

[JRAZZ]

Somewhat of an aside.  Watched the steeps clinic.  Tried the "load the nose early" tip.  Whoah!  That totally rocks!  It really does control the speed better!  Thanks!!!!

[Aracan]

Re driving the knee: See what Jörg does around the 0:45-0.55 mark. On toeside turns he drives his knee into the snow like nobody's business. In this case, it is not just a "lateral movement", as workshop said, and it has a LOT to do with flexing the boot. 

 

Edited December 25, 2016 by Aracan

[SunSurfer]

There are distinct differences between riding shallow binding angles < 50 deg, higher angles 50+ deg, Pureboarding style, and extreme carving style. Corey was not taking a Pureboarding clinic. I've been on one of Joerg's clinics and Corey's clinic.

Aracan, you are conflating two different styles.

[Aracan]

You must have missed the "in this case" part. I merely tried to point out that driving the knee can be more than a non-boot-flexing lateral movement as workshop7 claimed.

[Neil Gendzwill]

1 hour ago, Aracan said:

You must have missed the "in this case" part. I merely tried to point out that driving the knee can be more than a non-boot-flexing lateral movement as workshop7 claimed.

Yeah, but we are trying to help someone with speed control here, not with EC turns. 

[najserrot]

I think i now have pretty good picture what "driving the knee in the snow" means now.   Going up the hill some time next week to try theese out. 

next question "Loading the nose" --- is this the same as decambering the Board during the Down weighting to engage the New edge? 

[Aracan]

As SunSurfer will probably agree, "driving the knee" as demonstrated in the video I posted is not exclusively an EC-style technique. I fare very well controlling my speed on toeside turns where my knee touches the snow without making EC turns.

[RobertAlexander]

Just another thought on learning,  "reading the snow", very hard firm pack is going to be fast and your timing needs to be fast, as you cut in approx. 1 inch. The other side of the coin is snow that is softer, not set up as much, cutting in deep 3 inches or more, will be slower, and your timing does not need to be so quick, but this softer snow requires lots more energy out of your body, and will wear you out more quickly than in the firm pack.

   Also building stamina/conditioning of your body at the same time learning technique is a tough task.  I had 5 days of early season reasonable snow,  generally get an hour , then take a break, followed by 2 more 1/2 hr stints. Then we got some good fresh snow, groomed once, the night before and it was ripping time on the MK, but this snow  required lots of physical energy , 3 inch lines,   and am toast for a couple days.   Generally need about 10 good days of hard carving to get to a point of being able to stay out for 4 or 5 hrs with no breaks.   Point am trying to make here is,  you need to become physically conditioned and learn technique at the same time,  so pace yourself,  and do the happy spot method first, keep at it , it will happen, in time and practice.

And yes. Jorges Pureboard style, rear binding recommended angle is   25 to 40, so his rear knee hits early. front is 50 to 60.

Edited December 25, 2016 by RobertAlexander

[Buell]

On 12/22/2016 at 9:11 PM, najserrot said:

Also i feel like I am just "riding the sidecut" of the board.
 

I am pretty lightweight and have had a number of boards over the years that are too stiff for me.  On those boards, much of the time, the only thing you can do is "ride the sidecut".  I don't consider board type relevant for learning speed control (although race boards are harder to slow down), but too stiff of a board will make it difficult to impossible to accomplish some of the things discussed in this thread.  That said, a board that is too stiff today, might be fine for you next year as you progress.

Edited December 25, 2016 by Buell

[Buell]

3 hours ago, Neil Gendzwill said:

Yeah, but we are trying to help someone with speed control here, not with EC turns. 

Not quite EC, but if you want to slow down quickly, drag some of your body.  I will sometimes put a hip on the snow, combined with a real hard turn, as a speed check before starting a steep section of trail.

[JRAZZ]

3 hours ago, najserrot said:

I think i now have pretty good picture what "driving the knee in the snow" means now.   Going up the hill some time next week to try theese out. 

next question "Loading the nose" --- is this the same as decambering the Board during the Down weighting to engage the New edge? 

What I found out was to lean forward and put weight on the nose right from the beginning of the turn.  It makes the board turn faster at the top and then at the bottom of the turn you have a lot less speed.   The more I weighted the nose at the beginning of the turn the more control I had on speed (slower I was going) at the exit.   

[RobertAlexander]

2 hours ago, erazz said:

What I found out was to lean forward and put weight on the nose right from the beginning of the turn.  It makes the board turn faster at the top and then at the bottom of the turn you have a lot less speed.   The more I weighted the nose at the beginning of the turn the more control I had on speed (slower I was going) at the exit.   

Yes on this, weight forward at the initiation/beginning of turn, then as the 1/2 circle turn is made, evenly roll your weight rearward and load the board, for an unweighted transition, and maybe in the air a bit.  play with this and you will see what happens.    

The harder you hit it at the beginning, the quicker the board will turn, the swoop will happen early ,  and the less pressure at the bottom of the turn, which is good in some so so snow carve conditions, so you do not wash out at the bottom of turn.  

If you come in soft and easy at the beginning of the turn, the swoop will happen late and at the bottom of the turn, thus more pressure for wash out.

I guess there is a third method, and that would be to be even pressured through out the turn from the beginning until the end. Play with it.

I think we are all assuming a certain base level knowledge here, But I did not know the above at 2 years, knew it, just not doing it well.   Question would be , what is your skill level on softboots, years, etc. ?

   Am presently getting 2 local folks into hardboots, They both have been on softs since 1988,  and my opinion after seeing them carve on softs is that they are going to be ripping it first day. My goal is to get them to take it easy for a while.

Edited December 25, 2016 by RobertAlexander

[Corey]

7 hours ago, najserrot said:

next question "Loading the nose" --- is this the same as decambering the Board during the Down weighting to engage the New edge?

Yes, exactly. The idea is to bend the board a bit to start the turn. Otherwise you end up tipping the board to the next edge and it lazily starts the next turn. With that early pressure, you are in charge and make the board start turning early. 

On soft snow, keep your weight centered so you don't bury the nose and do a front flip. On hard stuff, I'm focusing my weight ahead of the front binding during that initial phase. 

The body-dragging stuff is something you can try in a few years, but I recommend ignoring it for now. 

[Beckmann AG]

Maybe take a step back and reconsider your situation.

>From your original post, it appears you have a cascading momentum problem.

 

Put another way, you pick up ‘speed’ with every turn, rather than dumping the desired amount with each direction change.

 

This situation usually involves timing, overly complicated movements that affect timing, and funking up weight distribution by standing on the wrong foot at the wrong time.

...As well as a few considerations directly related to the toeside/heelside pressure application defaults.

 

Rather than prescribe a monkey’s fist of choreography, I’d suggest you reach a conclusion on what actually makes the board turn, and what allows you to continue on that path long enough to slow down without skidding or otherwise ‘unlocking’ the turning edge from the snow.

 

It’s the effect you’re after at this juncture, more so than the outward appearance of a ‘hardbooter’.

 

Find a really wide slope of gentle pitch, and work out the mechanics that let you make a series of single arcs into, across and back up the fall line without tipping over or skidding. Flat base, to edge, to flat base. Done right, you should be able to ride back up the fall line, much like a stunt pilot stalling a propeller driven plane, and then sliding back to regain ‘lift’.

 

From the drone’s eye view, it should look something like a batch of parenthesis neatly stacked down the fall line.

 

 ))))))))))))))).

 

Once you get that sorted, you can move on to slightly more complicated diagnostics.

 

Until you can do this with ease from an upright posture, you’re kinda wasting time trying to ride steeper terrain.

Unless the goal is to develop odd habits.

You may also find that the bindings need to be relocated, and/or you need to distribute your weight in a way that runs counter to popular opinion.

[najserrot]

Carve report: mind blown. THANKS!!!!

Been boarding a few days now to try out the ideas presented to bleed off speed while carving.

Tried it first on the SL board but found out quick that it wasnt such a smart idea since things happened so fast auch that a turn is already over while in  my head is still thinking "load the nose". Moved on to the GS board.

Tried "loading the nose" at the beggining of the turn and for the first time ever, I felt the board bend beneath my feat because i wanted it too and not bec of the gforces in a carve. Was able to do tighter turns. But i really could not make 11-17 m scr carve  uhill at the end. The most i could do ischange edge parallel to the fall line otherwise it takes somuch space.

The pure carving and EC video were godsend. I didnt do layed out carves but in the video, the "driving the knee" concept was so exagerated that i had a good picture in my head of how it is supposed to be.

So far i was able to controll speed much better than before on a steep-ish blue slope. To top it off... i had always been more or less looking downhill while carving or looking to the middle of the turn ( whic feels very wierd). Someone mention in the thread to look where the board is going or where i want to go and thos made things much more better and felt more natural!

Also somementioned to carve with front heel on heelsides and back toe on toe sides. And i felt the board tracked somuch better.

Question: can some one please breakdown weight destribution on the feet during a carve? Some how i get confused with this

[Jack M]

1 hour ago, najserrot said:

Carve report: mind blown. THANKS!!!!

 To top it off...  Someone mention in the thread to look where the board is going or where i want to go and thos made things much more better and felt more natural!

Question: can some one please breakdown weight destribution on the feet during a carve? Some how i get confused with this

Nice!  I think you had it before, weight 70/30 to start, 30/70 to finish.  Approximately.  If you really need to force a tighter radius, stay forward as long as you can.  Your 17m tail is not going to want to come back uphill (that's an aggressive board for an intermediate carver). That was me with the looking advice.  25 years later I still have to make a point to do it, but it helps so much.

[Buell]

Improving is fun!

Where you weight during different parts of the turn will depend on how aggressive you want (need) to make your turn and the snow conditions. 

My range of weighting in each turn is generally less than 40% of the board, even on a GS board.  I may be 70% forward or back during a particular turn, but I am probably not 70% in the opposite direction at another part of the same turn. The board you are riding will have a sweet spot as well.  Some are more forgiving, some not at all.

If you are moving fast and on a steeper slope or faster snow, you will want to load the nose more to control the speed.  You want a quick initiation.  In those conditions, when things are happening quickly, I don't move too much behind the midpoint of the board during the turn so I can return to the nose to initiate the next turn.

In normal situations, I ride pretty centered without much weight shift unless I am surfing a bank or cranking a hard turn or pumping off the tail.

If you are in flatter terrain, you will not move as far forward and you will finish more on the tail.  You do not want to over turn because you will burn too much speed.  In this terrain, if you want more speed, you might even finish each turn with a pump off the tail.

In softer conditions, it can be risky to move too far forward and you will ride more centered to back.  Your turn will start a bit bigger and tighten up as you go into it so you do not blow out of your carve on the softer snow or dig a nose at turn initiation.

On hero snow and hero slope angle, do what ever you want. 

Edited January 5, 2017 by Buell

[najserrot]

I get that Jack. Only lanaged to look where im going on the last three runs i had this morning even though i was trying oh so hard the whole week. 

Dumb question of the year.....When one has one's weight mostly on the front of the board on the steeps. Is this achieved by bending forward from the waist? 

Edited January 5, 2017 by najserrot

[Neil Gendzwill]

Just shift your weight towards your front foot.  No need to bend.  On steeps, many people are afraid of the fall line and tend to get in the back seat, which has the opposite effect intended (going faster, not slower, and with less control). 

Edited January 5, 2017 by Neil Gendzwill

[Buell]

6 hours ago, najserrot said:

 

Dumb question of the year......When one has one's weight mostly on the front of the board on the steeps. Is this achieved by bending forward from the waist? 

Push your knees toward the front of the board.  I will drive my shoulders into the turn when I am pushing hard.  I don't think of it as bending forward at the waist, but it could be considered that perhaps.

Edited January 6, 2017 by Buell
clarity

[Corey]

A thought exercise that clicked for me:  Don't move your weight forward - slide the board rearward under you.  Think of standing on the flats, and needing to pull the nose back to let someone by.  

Then, as going through the turn, slide the board forward under you.  So you start the turn with the board slid rearward (weight towards nose), and finish the turn with the board slid forward (weight towards tail).  How much you slide it changes the turn radius.  

[pow4ever]

this is a great discussion.  Should be "sticky-ed"

"Listening is easy, hearing is hard."  -- Corey_Dyck

The tip presented here are not "new to me" but it's finally clicking in.

To paraphrase a quote:  "Carving steep/narrow/icy is both easy and impossible, it's impossible when you don't get it; once you get it it's easy".

I am just glad winter is here :-)

[Surf Quebec]

Going to ATC, Corey will you give the steep clinic?