Carving progression

[najserrot]

Hi,

would like to get some some tips on how to progress since i feel some what stuck.

Been carving for 2 seasons now and feel confident on blue runs (somewhat). I can do solid carves on the first 3-4 turns. like really round and deep carves. But then things get hairy after about the 4th turn. I gain so much speed. To explain it quite vaguely, by the 4th turn I feel like im FLYING  1 cm over the snow. I can barely feel the snow under my feet and it seems i loose the leverage to dig in the edge in the snow. By this time, I can't make round carve turns anymore and instead feel like i just go straight down the hill all the while switching edges quickly. If i dont switch edges fast enough, the board would skid at this point. All these in a blue run!

 

Also i feel like I am just "riding the sidecut" of the board.

 

Any tips how i can work around this problem would be awesome.

 

thanks!

[Aracan]

The easiest and coolest way to burn speed is to carve C shapes instead of ( shapes. Stay in your turn until you feel you have slowed down enough, even if that means you carve uphill at the end of the turn.

For this you need to be "locked" into the turn. There are different opinions on how best to achieve this. Personally, I find that rotation works well: Rotate your shoulders and hips in the direction you want to turn. When practicing, your hips and shoulders should be parallel to the board on the toeside, perpendicular on the heelside.

Also, weigh your front heel on heelsides, your rear toe on toesides.

[Corey]

A classic problem! So classic that we made a clinic mostly around this issue. See if this helps you: 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TVw_2hYefjA

[RobertAlexander]

Commit more, pick the board up more, and yes on go back up the hill just enough to keep your speed in check, if needed.  This going up the hill is a fine tune, go up too much and you will lose too much speed so the next turn is difficult,  bleed off just enough speed , but still have enough speed for a comfortable initiation for the next turn.   And when I say go back up the hill, you are not actually going totally up the hill,  you are angling slightly up while you are traversing perpendicular  across the fall line.  For me, 6 inches to a foot distance as you are looking across a 30 foot trail.   But get the idea and play with it, you will figure it out.   Lastly,  doing these 1/2 circle arcs completely keeps your speed in check, you cant let  even one of them get away from you, you need to keep them tight, every one of them, over and over.  Also board scr and type makes a difference, what are you riding? Coreys vid explains it well. Try a back up the hill drill and totally crank it, to know your limits.

[workshop7]

What are the specs of the board you are riding?  This could be part of the problem.  Riding a board that is way over your current ability can have a negative effect on your speed control.  

If the equipment isn't part of the problem, finishing your turns by traveling perpendicular to the fall line while in transition is great advice from Robert and Aracan.

[najserrot]

3 hours ago, Aracan said:

Also, weigh your front heel on heelsides, your rear toe on toesides.

 great that you mentioned weight distribution since i still get confused about this. Could you break down how you do it?

I ride Goofy. And i do it like this and correct me if I have been doing this wrong.

Heelside turns: initatiate turn with weight on front heel.70/30 (front / back). Then slowly move my weight to the back heel so that it is 50/50 by the middle of the turn and 30/70 at the end.

toe side: initatiate turn with weight on front toe.70/30 (front / back). Then slowly move my weight to the back toe so that it is 50/50 by the middle of the turn and 30/70 at the end.

 

 

[big mario]

Corey's video is spot on, learn it, live it, love it.

Sounds like you also are riding the board, and not driving, watch the video again, especially the part about turn shape, then watch it again.

and again. One of the best ways to apply what Corey is talking about is to take your favorite run, cut the width in half, and make yourself complete a full turn in that space. Personally, I like to take my half right out of the middle, riding hard by the trees can be a little unnerving ,but it definitely gives you incentive to turn away.

And remember, Drive, don't ride, own the board, don't let it own you

good luck

mario

[najserrot]

Great vid! Watched it a few times now.

Im ridding an old coiler GS around 13m and a newer donek SL 9-11 m. On the GS i get so much pressure at end of the turn ( mentioned in the video) while maintaining speed. On the SL, i get so much speed at the end and not much pressure. In both cases it always end up in wdge chatter.

On the first video, "drive the knee" what does that mean? What does "driving" mean? Does it mean i should make my front leg do circular-ish movements like on a steering wheel to turn the board?

[big mario]

To be succinct, for me, driving the board is to stomp on the nose at the initiation of the turn, load it, and make it my bitch. Don't do it on soft snow however, you will get pitched over the bars.

[pmorita]

All great advice.  What helps me is looking to the middle of the turn and outside hand to the front boot cuff.  Once you get a rhythm going, you can relax and play with the radius to dump more speed earlier in the turn.

[Neil Gendzwill]

2 hours ago, najserrot said:

 

On the first video, "drive the knee" what does that mean? What does "driving" mean? Does it mean i should make my front leg do circular-ish movements like on a steering wheel to turn the board?

On a heelside, drive your front knee into the snow. On toeside, drive the back knee towards the snow. Works for me anyway. 

[bigwavedave]

Everything above is good, but maybe your boards have a variable side-cut designed to let a racer out of a turn earlier to get them off to the next gate. It's just a bit more work to make a modern race board (~past 10 years) complete turns to keep your speed in check. It requires keeping weight on the turnier part of your side-cut, which is typically toward the nose.

Edited December 23, 2016 by bigwavedave

[Buell]

4 hours ago, najserrot said:

 Heelside turns: initatiate turn with weight on front heel.70/30 (front / back). Then slowly move my weight to the back heel so that it is 50/50 by the middle of the turn and 30/70 at the end.

toe side: initatiate turn with weight on front toe.70/30 (front / back). Then slowly move my weight to the back toe so that it is 50/50 by the middle of the turn and 30/70 at the end.

 

 

26 minutes ago, bigwavedave said:

Everything above is good, but maybe your boards have a variable side-cut designed to let a racer out of a turn earlier to get them off to the next gate. It's just a bit more work to make a modern race board (~past 10 years) complete turns to keep your speed in check. It requires keeping weight on the turnier part of your side-cut, which is typically toward the nose.

+1

I ride a Kessler SL.  When I am in speed control terrain, I stay on the nose or centered.  I never get on my back foot.  That board and other race boards I have ridden would send me into the trees if I got back seated at speed.  In truly steep / fast terrain, I just stay on the nose (focusing about a foot to 18 inches in front of my front boot) and make sure it is cutting into the snow to burn speed.  This is not a soft days technique.

Transitions are much quicker if you stay forward as well.  If your weight distribution is 30f/70r at the end of your turn it is a long way to go to get back over the nose to initiate your next turn.

 

[piusthedrcarve]

4 hours ago, najserrot said:

Great vid! Watched it a few times now.

Im ridding an old coiler GS around 13m and a newer donek SL 9-11 m. On the GS i get so much pressure at end of the turn ( mentioned in the video) while maintaining speed. On the SL, i get so much speed at the end and not much pressure. In both cases it always end up in wdge chatter.

On the first video, "drive the knee" what does that mean? What does "driving" mean? Does it mean i should make my front leg do circular-ish movements like on a steering wheel to turn the board?

GS or SL decks are for racing.  Pressing nose technique is too time consuming for next gate.  You need to learn how to tilt / change direction.  If you are not after racing, get a carving specific deck (boards that prefer carve-line turns vs. fall line preferred boards like GS/SL decks) and try what Corey's video teach.  it is much easier to understand the drill with a deck that is built for. 

[John E]

Watching Corey's video reinforces something that I had to discover on my own. 

When I am carving badly, I'm traversing a wide slope on my uphill edge and I slowly roll the board onto the downhill edge, wait for it to engage and try to ride it around to the next transition. This usually results in big-radius curves, high speed and skidding to control my speed. 

What I'm trying to make "muscle memory" is when I am traversing a wide slope on my uphill edge, I "throw" my weight downhill to firmly engage the downhill edge. Once the downhill edge is engaged, it easily carves on its own around the turn. This usually results in tighter turns and lower speeds. However, I find it very unnatural to throw your body downhill. This seems go against all sense of self-preservation. However, I find that if I trust that the edge will engage, it works out pretty well. Also, when you think about it, it makes sense: a turn should initiate about 1/2 way across a traverse - not at the end of the traverse. 

I think this is apparent in the video when you can see the bases of the boards from uphill (on the riders that are doing this correctly). 

[Jack M]

Step 1, make sure you LOOK WHERE YOU WANT THE CARVE TO GO.  This cannot be understated.  If you're just looking downhill it's very easy for your technique to go out the window.  At the beginning of each carve, sight ACROSS the trail to where you want to end up, and make it happen.  DO NOT just stare aimlessly downhill.

[Buell]

4 hours ago, piusthedrcarve said:

GS or SL decks are for racing.  Pressing nose technique is too time consuming for next gate.  You need to learn how to tilt / change direction.  If you are not after racing, get a carving specific deck (boards that prefer carve-line turns vs. fall line preferred boards like GS/SL decks) and try what Corey's video teach.  it is much easier to understand the drill with a deck that is built for. 

Race boards make great freecarvers with proper technique and I don't find they have issues holding a carve until the end.  Being designed to release from a carve when the rider tells them to, instead of locking in until the end of the turn, opens up all kinds of possibilities for carving the slope. 

[JRAZZ]

As a carving beginner I feel that boards designed to release from a turn (variable radius, taper - like the Donek FC) were somewhat easier to control than boards that do not (single radius, no taper - like the Donek Proteus).    Holding a carve uphill was easier on the latter though...

Again, as a beginner I'll share my view.  All the info you get is correct and will help you.  It is; however, a lot to take in.  A lot is going on and you feel like you have no control and everything is happening way too quickly.   I find that it's easier to focus on one thing at a time.   Pick one: Carving uphill, holding a toe side, holding a heelside, etc...  

[najserrot]

to do list next time im on the hill

1. adding more umpfff in the down weight to engage new edge while perpendicular to the fall line

2. put more pressure to bend the nose to make tighter turn radius.

3. go a bit up hill to bleed off speed (but not too much)

4- repeat from step 1

all the while looking at where i want the carve to end up and keeping good body position with the hand on knee thing.

ok so far?

 

is a freecarve board so different? Its not easy for me to get one

[softbootsurfer]

Pick a Run...do it over and over and over and over and over until you know it well enough to forget where you are going, which will allow you to focus on what you are doing...

[big mario]

18 minutes ago, najserrot said:

to do list next time im on the hill

1. adding more umpfff in the down weight to engage new edge while perpendicular to the fall line

2. put more pressure to bend the nose to make tighter turn radius.

3. go a bit up hill to bleed off speed (but not too much)

4- repeat from step 1

all the while looking at where i want the carve to end up and keeping good body position with the hand on knee thing.

ok so far?

 

is a freecarve board so different? Its not easy for me to get one

Run what ya brung and have fun. Stick with your list and don't worry about the board, you'll be fine

mario

[RobertAlexander]

I like the "one thing at a time" statement,  but let me add this.  Find a good happy comfortable spot on a favorite trail,  then start doing your carves there, just link one or two or three,  but do them the best and as tight as you can, and once you get comfortable with that spot, go find another happy spot and do the same.    You are probably not just going to start linking a complete trail all at once and do it well.  So work on your skills in spots/areas , one at a time. As these improve, go add more spots, and as these improve , eventually you will start to click, and then attempt an entire trail.  Marry had a little lamb,  then onto Mozart.  Same goes with any sport.

And yes on the single radius side cut, imo it holds a carve better at the end of the carve, and No problem at all releasing it from a carve to go to the next carve. My preference is 9.0 m scr.   , My riding is in the Northeast with  some tight narrow trails.

Edited December 24, 2016 by RobertAlexander

[najserrot]

totaly off topic video. but is this the movement that everyone is talking about when they mention "drive the knee in the snow"?

[workshop7]

Driving the knee has nothing to do with flexing the boot.  It is more of a lateral movement, toward the outside left and outside right of the boards edges.  The act of driving the knees to the snow is a tool or means to achieve a specific end result.  As Corey talks about in his video, driving the knee creates angulation in the relationship of the board to the snow.  This is like your steering wheel.  

When you stand up straight on your board with your boots on and buckled into the bindings imagine a line drawn from the top of your head to the center of width of the board.  While just standing there this line should go through the center of you knee cap and center of your hips.  On a green trail and at slow speeds you can maintain this position while making turns.  Your whole body leans over tilting the board onto its edge to carve a turn.  As your speed increases you can't continue this technique.  On heelside, drop your hips to the snow and keep your upper body more upright.  This puts a bend in that straight line you had going before.  This creates more angulation in the board without having to duplicate the same angle between your body and the snow.  Driving the knee increases angulation even more.  In the middle of the turn, push your front knee down toward the snow in the space between your front hip and front foot.

[Eric Brammer aka PSR]

15 hours ago, najserrot said:

Great vid! Watched it a few times now.

Im ridding an old coiler GS around 13m and a newer donek SL 9-11 m. On the GS i get so much pressure at end of the turn ( mentioned in the video) while maintaining speed. On the SL, i get so much speed at the end and not much pressure. In both cases it always end up in wdge chatter.

On the first video, "drive the knee" what does that mean? What does "driving" mean? Does it mean i should make my front leg do circular-ish movements like on a steering wheel to turn the board?

 This is a 'grab' from Freecarve, because I'm lazy, and didn't want to yet again type the dang thing out...

 

On 3/14/2006 PSR wrote in from 216.66.xxx.xxx:

John, try just a modest amount of stance adustment along the board's length, say move both binders forward,um, 3/4" or so. That 'may' allieviate some of the leg-burn syndrome. However, what also needs to occur is that you RELAX, use less 'pressure' down into the board's edge, but increase Edge angle to keep the carves clean. Most riders tend towards rolling up to 40* or so, and that's still in the weight-on-the-base realm. Put your board up to 60*, and there's no 'fudging' the turn arc, as your weight is now more on the sidewall than base. It's scary at times, as the board has to be twisted or bent to change the arc-in-progress, and [almost] no skidding can occur without 'blowing out' of your intended line. The trick then is ride up high on the edge, but with a much lighter touch, and use the bootcuffs like Joysticks to increase/decrease edging or steering input. Using the knees to aim the edge means that the hips are now 'left' or 'right' as much as they're front or rear. When using this tactic, it also lets the knees 'float' to increase shock absorbtion while you're way up on the edge/sidewall. Speed control now is a function of setting the edge early, or taking the arc into a 'crossing the Fall Line' completion. This means, btw, that small bumps get trenched thru, not skimmed over. To get the 'way-up-on-edge' feel, use a moderate slope that's got good width and grooming. Try to get up on 'tip-toes' really early, and stretch into the turn slowly from a soft crouched position. If you got the timing right, you'll still have 'stretch room' left when you've made a full "C" turn. For Heelside carves, roll the lead hip forward And down, pull the Toes UP, and then get both knees rolling into the edging. Again, stretch slowly, not quite getting to standing tall by the time your "C" turn is finished. To link this style carve, let your board carry some speed from turn-to-turn and use the length of the "C" shape govern your momentum. 

With the stance of 45*, you're on 'the diagonal', where you can still use toes/heels for edging pressure. You can now also move fore/aft with Power to help pressure/unweight the board (this,btw,is Hardbooting's biggest advantage in turning over softies. It's not about boot stiffness, it's about Leverage along the Diagonals!). Leaning at the boot cuffs side-to-side is also usable for creating edge tipping. Torsional twist is also near an optimum as that means of bending/edging can be selectively employed AND convey power transfer fore and aft (again, along the diagonal). Angles set above 45* say 66*F/60*R use the boot as a lever, but the toe/heel feel is somewhat taken away while fore/aft pressuring is enhanced. Carving becomes easy, but using a soft edge-feel or balancing while going slow gets to be more difficult.
Riders often use higher angles due to board width, and the skinnier the board is, harder it is to keep the toes/heels from dragging in deep turns. Angles set below the 30's tend to distinctly curtail fore/aft pressuring, and tend to create a bias towrds using the toes/heels for edge leverage, and the knees/hips cannot 'drive' forward to create truly powerful carves. However, a soft-touch is enhanced as is low-speed stability. Softbooters using a 'duck' stance, with the toes pointing towards the board's ends are using that 'soft touch' bias along the toeside edge for better low-speed balance (good for jibbing rails and ollies) while sacrificing knee-steering and power on the heelside edge (as the highbacks are now leveraging the board's center, not along the diagonal).
Having a 'directional' stance, with both feet pointing towards the nose is what you want for higher-speed turns. Putting your feet at angles that let you focus edging power along the entire board's length is better yet. The range of angles between 27* and 60* are where a rider can best affect the board's edging with the most power, control, finesse, and blend of fore/aft And side-to-side pressuring. So, yeah, 45* would be "Good" in my book.