ablapia Posted May 10, 2015 Report Share Posted May 10, 2015 got myself swoard gen4 and F2 biding. headed to A-basin in colorado to test it. I thought I was gonna cry. It happneded to be powder day and encountered cat walk path unexpectedly. I fell so many times, wished I had brought my soft boots. I would have carved better in soft boots setting. I set binding 60 front and 50 in rear, and when I got on on actual slope, I felt so awkard I was not near to carving. I constently fell when I attmepted backside turn. It was very hard to make turn, and get afraid to snowboard in a way I noramlly do. I felt that I need at least 100 yard across the pass to make a turn feet were so hurting and uncomfortable. swoard was just out of box. bevelling base and side edge would help? I noticed that F2 finings have cant. is it right that they slope down toward cener of your stance? any advice appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Posted May 10, 2015 Report Share Posted May 10, 2015 I'm too new to help but can say that on my first attempt I only made one run down and just about threw in the towel. It was so weird to have such a change up in stance; not to mention all the rest that is different. Stick with it. I have liked it more each time I have gone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
utahcarver Posted May 10, 2015 Report Share Posted May 10, 2015 (edited) I'm too new to help but can say that on my first attempt I only made one run down and just about threw in the towel. It was so weird to have such a change up in stance; not to mention all the rest that is different. Stick with it. I have liked it more each time I have gone. Sorry, complete thread hijack! Ablapia please read the post below and follow the same instructions. Soft snow makes for softer landings so, don't fret that you found yourself floundering in fluff. Duke, I learned on my own using this forum and finding some mentors over the years. Find a mentor, someone you can trust, and believe in. Also, do not be afraid to put plates on boards you already trust and know. Start with low (below 30º) angles if needed. The more you can adapt to new settings the easier it gets. Remember, don't reach for the snow. Let it come to you. Read the tech articles here: The Norm, Where Your Butt Should Be, and Google The Core Four by Kevin Delaney. Keep your shoulders level, your knees bent, and don't drink until you are securely in the lodge. Wink and I have learned a lot from each other over the years riding together and with our sons. You may have to travel and meet up with others who share our stoke. You can do THIS and you will be digging trenches that will get you in trouble with other on-hill patrons at times. :) Just smile and walk away. You can do this and make a new influence on the hill. Remember the first time, Mark Edited May 10, 2015 by utahcarver Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tex1230 Posted May 10, 2015 Report Share Posted May 10, 2015 got myself swoard gen4 and F2 biding. headed to A-basin in colorado to test it. I thought I was gonna cry. It happneded to be powder day and encountered cat walk path unexpectedly. I fell so many times, wished I had brought my soft boots. I would have carved better in soft boots setting. I set binding 60 front and 50 in rear, and when I got on on actual slope, I felt so awkard I was not near to carving. I constently fell when I attmepted backside turn. It was very hard to make turn, and get afraid to snowboard in a way I noramlly do. I felt that I need at least 100 yard across the pass to make a turn feet were so hurting and uncomfortable. swoard was just out of box. bevelling base and side edge would help? I noticed that F2 finings have cant. is it right that they slope down toward cener of your stance? any advice appreciated. If you're falling down on every heel side, no amount of bevel is going to help :-/Spend the time to learn the technique. Like Utah said, the Norm and other articles will help tremendously. Also, starting out on a pretty advanced board with high angles in powder is gonna suck. Wrong tool for a powder day. Break it out after a couple of grooming passes and try again. Aldo, (IMHO) a 10 degree splay between feet at those angles just sounds painful. Try angling the boot to where you are just inside of the edges and go parallel on both feet to start. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b.free Posted May 10, 2015 Report Share Posted May 10, 2015 Try to use this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b.free Posted May 10, 2015 Report Share Posted May 10, 2015 Also, take these cants out, you do not need them at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueB Posted May 10, 2015 Report Share Posted May 10, 2015 Welcome! Don't give up. Every beginning is hard especially without anyone to show you. .. I'd start first with plates on your old board for few days. It is probably softer and will turn tighter. Lots of info on binding setup here. Just do a search. Do some "carpet carving" first, be comfortable standing on the board before you even leave your home. Experiment with shims that came with F2. Of hand, large flat one in the rear heel and 2 slanted ones stacked to form a thinner flat one in front toe, without any cant is ok place to start. However we are all different... Yes do the Norm and other articles already mentioned. Find an instructor or mentor. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bumpyride Posted May 10, 2015 Report Share Posted May 10, 2015 First off, I don't board like 95% of all the hardbooters on Bomber, so take that into consideration. I'm not very interested in strictly carving down a groomed slope, so my technique (or lack thereof) is different than most of the members here. Jettison the steep angles with little difference from front to rear to start out with. Having steep angles with little difference is like the first time you set your feet up on a slack line. It's OK front to back, but you have no control side to side. Find your most comfortable stance when sliding down an icy slope. It will end up in pretty much of a martial arts stance. Your front foot will be pointing fairly straight down the hill and your rear will be cross-hatched to the fall line. Your feet will probably end up something like 60 degrees front and 40something rear. This stance gives you front to rear and side to side stability. Set your board up in your living room with the more splayed out angles. I'd recommend 45 to 50 front and 30 to 35 rear. See how it feels. Jump around a bit and see if you feel more balanced. If not, change the angles a bit, a couple of degrees a time. When you feel dialed in, try it on the slopes again. Once you start getting the balance part in order then start making micro changes on the slope. I'm almost totally off piste in hardboots and on all mountain carver. I spend as much time as possible in bumps/steeps/glades/powder. Groomers are mostly used to get back to the lifts, or if it's a really bad day off piste. On my narrower all mountain boards, I'm at 66 and 42. When I'm feeling really bored and want to carve a bit, I am set up at 66 and 50 something. I still prefer a lesser splayed out stance even carving. I realize that it's not the most efficient technique for a full layout carve, but it works OK. Cat tracks suck. Speed is your friend there. Took my hardest fall looking backwards on a cat track, dented my helmet, and was going about 3mph. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philw Posted May 10, 2015 Report Share Posted May 10, 2015 Those sound fairly extreme angles to me; maybe they're what the Swoard guys recommend, but 60 is steeper than I ever rode, even when steep was fashionable. You could try starting with something a little mellower. And parallel, or closer to it. I would not dick around much with the bindings, unless you have a specific reason to do it which you understand. I'd start with them not canted, with the big wedges as heel lift on your back foot and the small wedges as a small toe lift on your front foot. That's probably the most common set up for F2. Once you know what you're doing you'll be able to tell if that's what you want or not, but it will work. Bear in mind that most boots also have lean and flex settings, and you're dealing with the combination of those two things plus the bindings. Perhaps that sounds hard, but it isn't. Once you can ride a bit, you can work out how comfortable it feels and tweak until you have it right. But to start, you need something "plain vanilla" so you can get your bearings. Once you are "oriented", you can figure out what you want to do by making incremental changes, but you have to get going first. Don't dick around with the edge tune - it's a different approach to riding, that's all. Once you're close enough to this, you'll immediately feel it and then you're screwed for ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael.a Posted May 10, 2015 Report Share Posted May 10, 2015 You've joined an elite sport. A sport that has a steep learning curve, demands a high level of athletic prowess, has high startup costs, and is full of paradoxes and conundrums. And it's incredibly personal, what may work for someone as a individual may just as well as be aliens poking your body. I know why you bought a Swoard. You saw the videos and you wanted to do the same. While a wide board might just be the ticket for some, that just not might be the case for you. Nonetheless, now thatyou have bit the bullet you have to soldier on or decide you just can't cut it. Just to giveyou a heads up, it took me four years of 40-50 days a year to attain a decent level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Posted May 11, 2015 Report Share Posted May 11, 2015 Just to giveyou a heads up, it took me four years of 40-50 days a year to attain a decent level. When I finally did get a full day in I sent a note to Wink (the guy Utah is talking about) and let him know how stoked I was. He replied and told me to remember that it is a 10 year endeavor. I remember thinking TEN YEARS?? I think he was just anticipating the frustration I would feel at first and let me know that it seems to have a steep learning curve for lots of folks. I think many first timers are already accomplished riders and it stinks to suddenly be a beginner again. Utah/Mark....looking forward to getting some pointers from you. Get that vertigo thing licked and I'll make the trek to Utah and your mountain! Would love to meet you!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lordmetroland Posted May 11, 2015 Report Share Posted May 11, 2015 Just to giveyou a heads up, it took me four years of 40-50 days a year to attain a decent level. That's a sobering figure. Though it's probably better to manage expectations up front. Maybe someone should start the, "How many days it took until I didn't suck" thread. I'd be interested in the responses... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aracan Posted May 11, 2015 Report Share Posted May 11, 2015 (edited) Aldo, (IMHO) a 10 degree splay between feet at those angles just sounds painful. Try angling the boot to where you are just inside of the edges and go parallel on both feet to start. YMMV. Some people suffer with low or no splay, others find it comfortable. Some love a big splay (up to 20°), others do not. By the way, I have yet to see someone standing relaxed (not boarding) without some splay. There is nothing for you but trying it out. Edited May 11, 2015 by Aracan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Gendzwill Posted May 11, 2015 Report Share Posted May 11, 2015 Just to giveyou a heads up, it took me four years of 40-50 days a year to attain a decent level. You have to define "decent level". I made the switch to hardboots 4 years in and was turning and controlling the board first day. I wasn't railing turns but I was having fun. I've never had a 50 day season in my life. I had a couple 20-25 day seasons just as I switched to plates, but since then a typical year for me is 10 days on the snow, if that. I think the issue is jumping from a softie setup to an aggressively forward stance in difficult spring conditions. Ablapia, try dialling your angles back to around 50 f/45 r, which is more what that board is designed for and a bit easier leap, and also lowering your expectations a little. Also there are quite a few hardbooters in Colorado, if you can get together with them I am sure they can help soften that learning curve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missionman Posted May 11, 2015 Report Share Posted May 11, 2015 That's a sobering figure. Though it's probably better to manage expectations up front. Maybe someone should start the, "How many days it took until I didn't suck" thread. I'd be interested in the responses... Me too! I was thinking about posting this for ages, because I suck. In my defense i really haven't gotten more than 5 or 6 real carving days in each of the last three years, although i have been out on hardboots probably 1.5 to twice that many times each year... but yeah, to post something like this we'd have to be able to define 'decent' because i could carve lines and control myself on day 1 but i don't consider myself decent at all. Decent to me is having good form (either bomber style - no toilet sitting, which i can't seem to get out of my muscle memory from the sb's- or EC), particularly on imperfect. non-hero groomed, terrain. any better definitions before i or someone else posts this topic? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st_lupo Posted May 12, 2015 Report Share Posted May 12, 2015 (edited) Me too! I was thinking about posting this for ages, because I suck. In my defense i really haven't gotten more than 5 or 6 real carving days in each of the last three years, although i have been out on hardboots probably 1.5 to twice that many times each year... but yeah, to post something like this we'd have to be able to define 'decent' because i could carve lines and control myself on day 1 but i don't consider myself decent at all. Decent to me is having good form (either bomber style - no toilet sitting, which i can't seem to get out of my muscle memory from the sb's- or EC), particularly on imperfect. non-hero groomed, terrain. any better definitions before i or someone else posts this topic? Maybe the best first milestone, especially for us beginners, is how long it takes to get that first massive adrenaline pumped ear-to-ear grin moment. That Moment where all of your softboot friends had to learn to filter out your blathering on about how much they should just give hardboots a try. Edited May 12, 2015 by st_lupo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tex1230 Posted May 12, 2015 Report Share Posted May 12, 2015 Malcolm Gladwell says it takes 10,000 hours to become a true expert at anything. For Snowboarding, this is about 2,000 actual days on snow, riding 5 hours a day on average. So if you've never had multiple 100+ day seasons, you probably still suck I've been at this sport for over 30 years now, and I think I may be approaching that 10,000 hour mark... But ask anyone who has ridden with me and they will tell you I don't have a clue 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Gendzwill Posted May 12, 2015 Report Share Posted May 12, 2015 (edited) That comes down to your definition of "true expert" now, doesn't it? My definition of true expert is carving in control in any conditions on any pitch. By that standard I am far off the mark. However I would venture to guess that I am a better carver than well over 90% of snowboarders (that's the general population, I am definitely not 90th percentile for our little community), and that sure didn't take 10,000 hours to achieve. More importantly I am having fun with the gear, and that didn't take long at all. Edited May 12, 2015 by Neil Gendzwill 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael.a Posted May 12, 2015 Report Share Posted May 12, 2015 You have to define "decent level". I made the switch to hardboots 4 years in and was turning and controlling the board first day. I wasn't railing turns but I was having fun. I've never had a 50 day season in my life. I had a couple 20-25 day seasons just as I switched to plates, but since then a typical year for me is 10 days on the snow, if that. Hey Neil. Completely agree, so to be more precise, my 'decent level' is akin to expert, it includes riding in almost any conditions (including death cookie crust or powder - trees and even chutes) at any pitch with correct technique, knowledge and ability to replicate different riding styles, and technical knowledge of various factors such as board and boot construction and tuning information and how they affect the rider or the ride. Malcolm Gladwell says it takes 10,000 hours to become a true expert at anything. I think the 10000 rule has been discredited (Gladwell lifted that number from a study that just randomly guessed how many hours are needed), but I remember Erik Beckmann once succinctly pointed out what it means to attain proficiency in anything really and what framework is involved. My time is limited at the moment so I can't go searching, but it was a couple of months ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beckmann AG Posted May 12, 2015 Report Share Posted May 12, 2015 (edited) ^ I go with the definition of expert as attributed to Niels Bohr. RE: 10x365/10k, It’s not so much the raw number that counts, it’s that one shouldn’t expect to become highly proficient at a seemingly complex activity without a staggering amount of practice. Specifically, the type of practice that provides an opportunity to map all of the possibilities that contribute to a particular outcome. The more complex the task, the greater the possibility of making mistakes, and the more time needed to both discover the nature of those mistakes, as well as to find, implement, and store the manifold solutions. One can most certainly become ‘good’ in short order, particularly when one accounts for the possibility of physical/neuromuscular predisposition. Even then, it’s possible, and certainly likely, that an enthusiast will spend entirely too much time practicing movements that perhaps they shouldn’t. Especially given the veritable tsunami of sketchy information available on how one should do ‘The Thing’. There is a big difference between practicing what seem to be the component parts of the activity, and actually executing only what is necessary (and nothing more) in the right sequence at the right time, at the appropriate intensity, and for the needed duration etc. “Expert” is an asymptotic designation. In other words, you’re best off assuming you’ll never get there, and if you start to believe you’ve arrived, that's when you start to move further away. Edited May 12, 2015 by Beckmann AG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beckmann AG Posted May 12, 2015 Report Share Posted May 12, 2015 Link to an abstract on the source material (?) for both Gladwell and Coyle. (TL;Don'tRead. Unless you want perspective). https://hbr.org/2007/07/the-making-of-an-expert/ar/1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slopestar Posted May 12, 2015 Report Share Posted May 12, 2015 Go fast Turn hard Don't suck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowboardfast Posted May 13, 2015 Report Share Posted May 13, 2015 Ablapia are you going to ride at Abasin again before the season is over? I am planning on going up a few more times before it is done. i might be able to help you out a litlte bit? I have sundays and Wensdays off . I might be able to meet you up there on a sunday? If I can't do it there are a few riders that ride at the Basin on Saturday and Sunday. you might post on the ride board when you will be riding next? i have next week off for vacation May 18-25 I am planning on riding some during the week and might go up on Memorial day weekend? If it stays warm enough for the snow to soften? Are you using heat moldable liners in your boots? that can solve some problems with sore feet. a good video to watch on you tube is lessons in alpine snowboard carving by Snowy tom. He does lots of different turns. I watch this to remind myself what to keep working on. that video that B free posted is good as well. watch the snowy tom video and start out doing the ankle turns on a green slope. this will get you moving the board around doing small turns at slow speed. are you riding with both boots locked/?You might try riding with your rear boot in walk mode but keep your front boot locked. this will give you more range of motion in the rear leg. I assume you are using hardshell snowboarding boots ? ski boots would be harder to learn in unless they are modified for more flex. I am not an expert level rider but I am willing to help. Let us know if you will be returning to the Basin as we would love to help you. I also could bring up an all mountain board for you to ride that might be easier for you to use? If the swoard is a 175 it might be better to ride on a 163 all mountain to start? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lordmetroland Posted May 13, 2015 Report Share Posted May 13, 2015 ^ I go with the definition of expert as attributed to Niels Bohr. As if Niels Bohr knew anything about snowboarding. Did he win his Nobel Prize for snowboarding? No, I will tell you he did not. Even then, it’s possible, and certainly likely, that an enthusiast will spend entirely too much time practicing movements that perhaps they shouldn’t...There is a big difference between practicing what seem to be the component parts of the activity, and actually executing only what is necessary (and nothing more) in the right sequence at the right time, at the appropriate intensity, and for the needed duration etc. I planned on paying close attention to what I was doing and what I shouldn't have been doing on my last day at Loveland. However, the snow was so soft and unpredictable that I ended up just doing the former. I'm intrigued enough that I plan to spend some time deconstructing my technique next year, even though I'm confident it will come at the expense of some fun. And probably no small amount of dignity either. Hopefully, unlike Tiger Woods' experimentation with his swing, it won't end with my wife attacking me with a golf club in my Escalade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruincounselor Posted May 13, 2015 Report Share Posted May 13, 2015 Hopefully, unlike Tiger Woods' experimentation with his swing, it won't end with my wife attacking me with a golf club in my Escalade. I'm pretty sure that wasn't about his golf swing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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