Asymmetrical Carving

[snowlove]

Hey Everyone.  New to this forum and first post on any forum ever - reason I joined:

 

over 40

Snowboarding since 1990

Surf background.

 

(asym to me means heelside curve set farther down the rail line than on the toeside)

I am writing to solicit input about asym boards from the advanced carvers and racers out there.  

My mission is to find a board that feels a certain way, not to beat anyone in a race or any other reason.

 

I talked to Michele at Bomberonline and she encouraged me to put this out there:

 

Since we are mostly seeking a certain feel: shouldn't we adapt our boards to our style rather than vice-versa?

 

I am referring to the need to shift my hips forward on heel side carves and weight over my front leg.

 I prefer my hips back and weight over my back leg - I like that sensation of kicking more through the turn a bit. (like a surf carve - hips over feet)

 

Does anyone else out there recognize the value of asym in this specific situation?

 

I know about the whole mas shift side to side arguement and the fact the its a shortest distance rail to rail is on a symetrical board, but what does time matter if spend so little time in transition and the majority of time on edge...

 

thanks in advance

 

oh and anyone have a regular foot asym board they want to unload?

 

 

[BlueB]

Burton PJ 160 regular in great condition. Can't send the pics or ship before 11th of Jan. You can email me on

Boris at blueb dot biz

[RCrobar]

My initial thought is to hope for a bit of feedback from the master himself, Bruce of Coiler.  I am pretty sure he builds asymmetrical cores on a board with symmetrical heel and toe sidecuts.

 

Here is that Tom Curren Video Link again.  After your slow reply I thought that perhaps it wasn't relevant to the thread, so I deleted it; guess I just need to be a bit more patient:)

 

 

Cheers

Rob

Edited January 3, 2015 by RCrobar

[west carven]

howdy snowlove

no need for asym, just get a shorter board with a smaller radius.

surfboards are symmetrical, i'm thinking it's poor technique that your looking for a cure.

[purpletiesto]

I highly doubt the virus asyms and coiler asyms are to cure poor technique. Seems like a matter of preference.

[softbootsurfer]

backside floaters...I love sitting back on the way up and in and loading the edge on the compression...never thought the 2 asyms I had made that any easier for me however...

Edited December 27, 2014 by softbootsailer

[Mr.E]

Might be worth shifting the bindings forward on your current board.

[Beckmann AG]

Since we are mostly seeking a certain feel: shouldn't we adapt our boards to our style rather than vice-versa?

 

Within reason, certainly.  Unless the chosen 'style' predisposes one to injury.

Have you found a board close to what you are looking for?

 

 

I am referring to the need to shift my hips forward on heel side carves and weight over my front leg.

 

Drastic fore/aft weighting of that nature shouldn't be necessary unless the board you ride is too stiff for your weight. Or if your bindings are in the wrong place, or your feet are too far apart.

 

 

 

I prefer my hips back and weight over my back leg - I like that sensation of kicking more through the turn a bit. (like a surf carve - hips over feet)

 

Do you prefer then to:

A.  'slash' (kick) the tail from side to side in deeper snow,

or

B.  to bend the tail and let it rebound the board out of one turn and  into the next?  

 

 

Does anyone else out there recognize the value of asym in this specific situation?

 

 

Not that there is anything wrong with an asym, but it sounds more like an approach/technique change, in conjunction with a particular board flex/geometry might get you to where you want to be.

 

 

 

I know about the whole mas shift side to side arguement and the fact the its a shortest distance rail to rail is on a symetrical board, but what does time matter if spend so little time in transition and the majority of time on edge...

 

 

The rail to rail distance conjecture is mostly distraction.  That principle really only applies if one is simply 'toppling' from one edge to the other on a fairly long radius turn.  Once rebound comes into play, it's more about hitting a target that 'moves' versus hitting a target that doesn't.

 

Quite often, what takes place in that little time gap between turns, determines the overall quality/impression/feel of the turn itself.  Time management (dilation, compression) is an area often overlooked in the quest for better performance.

[lonbordin]

Welcome to BOL!

 

I'm a surfer and you'll find many others on BOL whom surf as well. I do surf carves all the time on all my boards (including skateboards).  I love that feeling... I look for those wave shapes on the side of a trail and BAM! that off the top. Fun!

 

I'm not sure why you feel that an asymmetrical would make much of a difference in doing surf carves.  Can you explain this to me?

[snowlove]

Sorry for the delay in responding.  I appreciate everyone's input, particularly the tom curren video from RCrobar and the thoughtful insight from Beckman AG.

Perhaps this is all a technique thing and I need so more carve mentors around -since there aren't too many in California. The focus here in on making heelside carves more powerful and laid out.

 

I am going to start with a responses - then propose my philosophy.

Quote

Since we are mostly seeking a certain feel: shouldn't we adapt our boards to our style rather than vice-versa?

 

Within reason, certainly.  Unless the chosen 'style' predisposes one to injury.

Have you found a board close to what you are looking for?

A: no - not yet

 

Quote

I am referring to the need to shift my hips forward on heel side carves and weight over my front leg.

 

Drastic fore/aft weighting of that nature shouldn't be necessary unless the board you ride is too stiff for your weight. Or if your bindings are in the wrong place, or your feet are too far apart.

A: my current all mountain board is not stiff, perhaps my feet are too wide apart- I always thought wider stance helped me open my hips.  I will try closer.

 

 

Quote

I prefer my hips back and weight over my back leg - I like that sensation of kicking more through the turn a bit. (like a surf carve - hips over feet)

 

Do you prefer then to:

A.  'slash' (kick) the tail from side to side in deeper snow,

or

B.  to bend the tail and let it rebound the board out of one turn and  into the next?  

 

Answer: not a slasher!  A carver (bend the board) unless there is a cornice or somthing fun to 'Hit' (ala surfing top turn vs cut back)

 

Quote

Does anyone else out there recognize the value of asym in this specific situation?

 

 

Not that there is anything wrong with an asym, but it sounds more like an approach/technique change, in conjunction with a particular board flex/geometry might get you to where you want to be.

 

A: perhaps - I will continue on until I find the feeling I'm looking for (a stickier laid out healside carve that I can lay all the way into) Look at all the alpine snow marketing pics - almost always toeside extended turns with bodies flat agains the snow- no reason healside extended shouldn't be just as common

 

 

 

Quote

I know about the whole mas shift side to side arguement and the fact the its a shortest distance rail to rail is on a symetrical board, but what does time matter if spend so little time in transition and the majority of time on edge...

 

 

The rail to rail distance conjecture is mostly distraction.  That principle really only applies if one is simply 'toppling' from one edge to the other on a fairly long radius turn.  Once rebound comes into play, it's more about hitting a target that 'moves' versus hitting a target that doesn't.

 

Quite often, what takes place in that little time gap between turns, determines the overall quality/impression/feel of the turn itself.  Time management (dilation, compression) is an area often overlooked in the quest for better performance.

A: I agree - please read below

 

In surfing, like snowboardinf there is technique and style. The most effective and efficient techniques make the biggest gouges which are also usually the most graceful and powerful and when done with ease - stylish. (same in surfing)

In surfing most surfers choose a different board based on conditions.  I'd say 3 boards is a minumum - step up, step down and performance everyday.  

(same in snowboarding - powder or groomers - for me its a 2 set up minimum)

 

Ok  - everyone who is interested in what I'm trying to explain please stand up.  Get in your stance.  Now try to emulate your healside carve.  

Ok good.  now do the same thing except don't bend your front knee as much and feel how you can open your hips up into your carve more.  (your hips will also come back slightly - suggesting a further back sidecut on the healside makes sense - toeside carve you hips are right over your board/toes/sidecut with all your force right in place to mazimize the rail of the board through length of the carve.

Kelly Slater (y'all know him right?) is big on hip postion over board. His words here: (so germaine to snowboarding, some not)

 

 

 

Legs: As you set a turn, you are compressed and coiled. Think of the compression in your legs like shock absorbers—catching the energy by compressing and then pushing back energy by extending. How much you can push back is the true source and test of power.

Shoulders: Rotation is your shoulder turn when compared to your hips and lower body. This is what creates extra power to release through your turn. In general, I like to keep the shoulders just ahead of the line of the board, with the rear shoulder dropped lower than the front shoulder. At the apex of a turn, the shoulders move further ahead of the board and should be basically rotated as far as you think the board is going to rotate by the end of the turn. The more speed you have, the less you need to turn your shoulders to create extra resistance and the more you cancan concentrate on just compressing. The tighter the arc of your turn, the more your shoulders are going to rotate—but this is where your hips also come into play.

Hips: I like to feel the hips “lead” into the turn and stay ahead of my front shoulder instead of the front shoulder being out in front of the hip. I think this is the real key to flowing from turn to turn. If your shoulders get in front of your hips, you can’t open to the direction you are turning and too much pressure/weight gets forward on your board, pushing into the nose and rocker of the board and, in effect, slowing you down and digging the front rail. Your arms also then have to counterbalance as the weight gets too far forward. To draw out a longer turn, your hips stay further forward. The tighter the turn, the further back your hips stay on the board and under your body to shorten the radius of your turns.

Some of this may sound like a mouthful and a little bit too much info at once; so just take one idea at a time and work through it consciously. Only after years of thinking about these things did it make sense to actually verbalize it to myself, and I’m not sure if those translations will come out right to everyone else. I am trying to articulate the biomechanics that happen without the mind or words getting in the way.

I once took a golf lesson, and the guy told me to be a scientist on the range and an athlete on the course. In other words, work on things specifically to improve your results in practice, but when you’re either competing or just enjoying yourself, don’t think about any of it and just see and do without thinking anything in between. Go by feel. Once you get comfortable with the principles of breaking things down to smaller elements, you can probably get to a point where you can actively apply a tip or different mechanics on the fly without needing to do it over and over again.

 

It should be noted that surfers position and reposition their feet regularly based on the turn they want to do, and usually keep their back knee tucked - but not to the degree of in snowboarding.

 

Which brings me to my final point.  Why should the sidecut be symmetrical when our hips and knees are not aligned the same way over our feet for toeside and healside turns.  Can't whe utilize the force in our rear legs more on a healside turn more by moving the sidecut back and being able to push harder?

 

Thanks to everyone for their time and reading this long post.

may you draw the lines you dream of.

[Neil Gendzwill]

I've only surfed a little but I don't think that surfboards behave closely enough to snowboards to warrant such detailed analysis. Especially alpine snowboards: I should think your opportunity to ride in a surfy style is best done off the groom.

[kieran]

i have two asym boards, both from virus. one is a 160 SL that is a bit too soft for me, and the other is a 186 that is probably just right. to get a properly clean heelside turn out of either i have to remember to turn my head to where i'm looking, rather than using peripheral vision while crossing the fall-line.

compared to a symetrical board, on an asym my turns feel better balanced, and more like i'm in the middle of the sidecut while turning in each direction. on a symmatrical board, i always feel that there is too much in front of my foot while turning heelside. yes htat can be ameliorated by moving my front binding forwards a bit, but then i highside into the world of an overpowered toeside initiation. been there, done that, been laughed at. laughed at myself. whoo.

 

i can't 'cruise' on an asym, like i can on a symmetrical board. or maybe it's the virus feel, but it's balls-to-the-wall for the whole run or it just doesnt work.

[pokkis]

I think originally asym-wave-boards were build to for asym waves.

It makes sense to build them for sb if you ride generally asym slopes too.

Otherwise you just should try compencate your driving incompetence.

[softbootsurfer]

on second thought, maybe some of us have a different perception...

 

      I have been surfing and skateboarding all my life, and Cold Surfing down the mountains here for 30 years, a long time....thousands of miles of climbing and dropping as on some far away perfect point break, many waves in each motion have allowed me to accumulate over many years a Dance that is the exact same motion in all three...it has absolutely nothing to do, with anything other than controlling either the right or left turn and the edges initiation, flow and release into the next turn...my perception is that I am on a Wave and like a Wave, I am doing bottom turns and off the top turns...trimming for speed and full body weighting to power down and in, so to speak...my wife of almost 50 years has watched me in all 3 and says I look the same or the Style looks the same...

 

Having had two asyms years ago I never thought they offered any worthwhile advantage...

 

Here is a cover shot of Surfing Milk in 87...

 

Aloha 

 

Edited January 2, 2015 by softbootsailer

[Beckmann AG]

 Hips: I like to feel the hips “lead” into the turn and stay ahead of my front shoulder instead of the front shoulder being out in front of the hip. I think this is the real key to flowing from turn to turn.

 

 

One of the 'keys' if you will, to flow on an alpine snowboard is the effective use of stored energy in the form of rebound.  Load/unload the board properly, and you can drive the board from one turn right into the next without interruption of glide or adhesion.

 

Generally speaking, you want to try to move (glide) the floor out from underneath you from turn to turn, rather than trying to move yourself around atop a moving floor. 

 

To avoid 'stalling' on a heel side turn, maybe load the board middle to back, rather than front to middle at initiation, by focussing weight  closer to the rear heel as the board is tilted, rather than starting on the front as might seem appropriate.

 

Some of what you are after is related to timing,  and also realizing the greater 'capacitance' of a snowboard v. surfboard.

 

 

 In surfing, like snowboarding there is technique and style. The most effective and efficient techniques make the biggest gouges which are also usually the most graceful and powerful and when done with ease - stylish. (same in surfing)

 

 

No doubt subject to endless debate, but one might suggest that the most effective technique on snow is the one that makes  the 'best' use of available energy without needlessly taxing the rider.  Meanwhile providing the sensations necessary for that rider's enjoyment of the sport.

 

Push any harder on the snow than necessary, and you're just doing work.  Treat the hardpack like a fluid medium rather than something to brace against, and you're on to something.  Part of this is knowing when to stop bending the board, and when to let the board start bending you.

Edited January 2, 2015 by Beckmann AG

[RCrobar]

I will continue on until I find the feeling I'm looking for (a stickier laid out heelside carve that I can lay all the way into)

 

Ok  - everyone who is interested in what I'm trying to explain please stand up.  Get in your stance.  Now try to emulate your heelside carve.  

Ok good.  now do the same thing except don't bend your front knee as much and feel how you can open your hips up into your carve more.

 

 

 

Check out this video of a Coiler soft boot carving board.

 

 

 

I bet that this type metal carve inspired board would let you lay in to a deep, hip turned, straighter front leg, heelside surf type carve as Coilers have SUPER edge hold!  You don't need an Assym board, just any board that can really hold an edge. 

 

Next you need to add a boot binding combination (hard or soft) that will permit you to both move your body into the surf position you desire ... while at the same time supporting your foot/ankle during the huge edge pressure of a hard turn.

 

 

After reading your quotes from above, my next question is what board, boots, bindings and stance angles you are riding when searching for this heelside feeling?

 

 

Cheers

Rob

Edited January 3, 2015 by RCrobar

[lowrider]

Inspiring Gabe every time I see your videos.

[RCrobar]

Hi Snowlove

 

After reading Kelly Slaters thoughts on turning a bit closer, his comment about surfers changing their foot placement seemed very relevant to your quest for a deep heelside turn on a snowboard.

 

 

It should be noted that surfers position and reposition their feet regularly based on the turn they want to do, and usually keep their back knee tucked - but not to the degree of in snowboarding.

 

 

 

Also, Beckmann AG Wrote:

To avoid 'stalling' on a heel side turn, maybe load the board middle to back, rather than front to middle at initiation, by focusing weight  closer to the rear heel as the board is tilted, rather than starting on the front as might seem appropriate.

 

 

Mr Slater also wrote:

If your shoulders get in front of your hips, you can’t open to the direction you are turning and too much pressure/weight gets forward on your board, pushing into the nose and rocker of the board and, in effect, slowing you down and digging the front rail. 

 

 

 

 

We boarders obsess about binding placement and angles, wouldn't it be great if snowboard bindings allowed us to move our feet around for different turns in different terrains!

 

This leads me to my next point regarding variable sidecut radius, would it go too far to say that the tip and tail of a variable sidecut radius board are asymmetrical? (Example Nose=10m, between the feet=12m, tail=11m)

 

We can't move our feet around on a snowboard.  We can, however, shift our weight/hips forward or back slightly (front vs back foot weight) to change the turn we want to make.  This is particularly evident on a variable sidecut snowboard.

 

Have you had a chance to try a Variable Sidecut Radius?  

 

I think that a VSR might be one step closer to what you are after for your surf turns and a 'similar' feeling to changing your turn by moving your feet around on a surfboard.  

 

A VSR is fun and will make you acutely aware of where you are loading your board, which may help with Beckmann's and Mr Slaters suggestion regarding keeping your weight back on the board when rocketing though that deep heelside you are after:)

 

Just a thought.

Rob

Edited January 4, 2015 by RCrobar

[lowrider]

Don't know if this is common practice in the snowboard building fraternity but when Bruce makes a custom Coiler snowboard for a specific riders weight and style he will  shave the core in specific areas of the board to stiffen or soften it. Believe it or not a thousands of an inch here or there makes a difference. He has a huge reference of stats on previous builds and feedback from riders. Some of the issues and your preferences may be addressed by having a conversation with him. What you seek may be obtainable with a custom build. In essence you could in fact end up with a board that on the outside looks like any other production board but is in fact an assym in disguise.

[snowlove]

Thank you all for your thoughtful input.  I hope I haven't wasted anyones time but I have not actually tried a modern carve board.  I have an M6 asym and nitro scorpion. both those boards have significant camber.  My current Arbor element with soft boots has rocker and is fun but not as carvy so I am moving towards purchase of a new set up and always loved the asym but have not been able to find any newer ones (aside from the virus made in europe)

I sincerely appreciate all the technical input from everyone. (particularly RCrobar and Beckman, Kieran and lowrider) I love the loading an unloading feeling and I do like to weight forward and attack my turns with speed so maybe I'm off base with my memory of the asym and new boards are much better.

 I just want to get all the info possible before spending $1000 + 

on a new board.  May try to make it to Colorado in Feb to demo some boards first.

I have not tried a VSR, but hope to.

When I see some of the videos online, I realize I have a long way to go and perhaps it is in fact my poor technique that is keeping me from laying out my heelside turns and not the board.

[slopestar]

My Softy Donek hooks heel side better than my alpine boards. All trust. I'm in So. California and have been surfing for 37 years. Just adjust a bit. And get on a proper board and setup.

[slopestar]

I have video as this is a frame grab but a proper softy carver seems to suit a surf style better especially if you have spent more years in soft setups than hard. HOWEVER,,,,, The hard boot interface is so much better/no slop/no boot play/no sloppy bindings...

[snowlove]

sick turn, yea that's what I'm going for.  you look pretty glued in despite what to me is possibly slightly more weight forward than I've been working on.  so donek softy is the way to go huh?  Thank you!!

[RCrobar]

Not a waste of time at all, just a lot of fun and an interesting conversation ... great first post:)!

I hope I/we helped a bit, I always worry about not giving helpful advice or even worse bad advice!

As you can see their are a LOT of great and riders on this message board that I forgotten more than I know about boarding, they usually jump in if anyone gets too crazy with miss-information, so you should be good to go with what has been said so far.

I still have, in the attic, and spent a LOT of time, years ago, on a Burton M6.  Back in the day I LOVED that board.  If I recall it has a 23cm waist, an 8.5m SCR on the toe and a 7.5m SCR on the heel and is pretty soft; I used Burton Rat Trap bindings and Raichle Mountaineering boots.  You could make 4 quick turns in a phone booth!
 
OK, it is time to spend some cash on a new board ... you will not believe the difference in the edge hold and fun you will have.

I like the idea of getting a new custom Coiler, but after you have had a chance to demo a few boards to give you a better idea of what you are after.  Bruce is a beautiful person, a pleasure to work with!

You will have to decide if you want to go hard of soft bindings, there is no right or wrong answer here ... just preference.  IMHO hard boots takes more work to get your set up and technique right, but is worth the rewarding power with less effort in a turn... that deep sticky heel side is just around the corner:)

I would recommend something like a softer Raichle 224 boot and softer bindings like an F2CarveRS.  Stance angles can start a pretty good flame war around here, but I think to get the body position of Kelly Slaters heelside, you should try to keep your stance approximately-somewhere around the high to low 40's.  If you feet aren't too big, I bet this is what you have on your M6.

The stance is key + your foot size = how wide of a board you will order to make a deep heel side that doesn't boot out.  I ordered an extremely wide Coiler Nirvana, for a carve board, 24cm to get this 'surf' feeling with a 28.5cm boot; don't be afraid to do the same. This wide Coiler is SO much fun and what else really matters?

Best of luck
Cheers
Rob

 

[hachis]

I still have, in the attic, and spent a LOT of time, years ago, on a Burton M6.  Back in the day I LOVED that board.  If I recall it has a 23cm waist, an 8.5m SCR on the toe and a 7.5m SCR on the heel and is pretty soft; I used Burton Rat Trap bindings and Raichle Mountaineering boots.  You could make 4 quick turns in a phone booth!

 

 

 

I did the same.

 

I started with a M6, then upgraded to a P.J. and, now, trying to ride my ALP 6.9 (###!!!###xxx###!!! bindings compatibility!).

 

I've always been on assym boards (for about 20 yrs), I do not know if my technique is that good (I'm sure not!) but I'm satisfied with what I'm able to do and with what those decks allowed me to.

 

I'll probably find the alp a lot different ... I'll tell ...

 

I keep my assym boards as back up ones, in fact, I move to a "normal" board because I've been told so much things about it ... so I left my assym ... "E.C. is made easier with non assym boards" ... (as I've been told) ...

 

What I'm sure about is that I'll come back to assym if my new "game" doesn't suit me!

 

Have fun.