On Edge Style – OES

[BlueB]

We had our demo day today, alas, in way sub-par conditions for carving - poor grooming, mixed fresh snow, variable visibillity...

Anyways, 4 brave riders, besides me, took the boards to the slope. Tony already posteded about the SL, I'm sure he'll write about Bulat 161 later...

Roy, Patric and Gary will chime in with their impressions of GS185, SL162 and Bulat 161, I hope.

I used BULAT 168 for the most of the morning. As I said, not conditions for EC at all, but I bashed it down the moguls quite a bit. The board is still in one piece ;)

Edited March 3, 2014 by BlueB

[nils]

It almost sounds like you are saying the Swoard was copied from the WildDuck'95-shape.

Here is a link for a Wild Duck "Knifer TD" from 94/95 season so you can compare pictures. You might be right, the Swoard looks exactly like a copy of the Wild Duck.

http://www.snowboardmuseum.de/board/show/id/495

The idea when replying to this thread was not to take it to flames...but to pick up the fact that the specs where exactly the sames shapewise as the board Swoard took many years to refine and produce...Yes competition is fine as long as its fair, it gets more boards out, thus more alpine riders hopefully.

As for the wild duck story: Since Jacques was the shaper for wild duck racing boards in the early 90's, it's no surprise that he started experimenting with his knifer design to get it to EC specs flexwise and torsionwise..If anyone has the right to "copy" that WD, I assume its the original shaper, especially since WD shut down alpine gear.

The Duret story is different: While the first gen of Swoard was subcontracted at Wild Duck's own factory with the benediction of WD owners, the factory manager asked us if it was possible to use our molds, because he wanted to experiment with carving monoskies for the Duret Brand....it seems the press was running after hours than expected because many ( how many is unknown) Duret Alpine where produced..When the Duret factory bankrupt, all the time I had was to rent a truck, fly to the factory, and get as much materials I could save because they were sold on the black market...I had to put pressure on the manager to get hold of rolls of triax fiber that was already sold cash to some friends before the repo men came to recover IRS money...

This is just a small story, not the last one of Swoard's adventures in the wild wild snowboard industry believe me..

As for boards breaking...it happens unfortunately...Some productions break, some rarely break, its very difficult to understand why certain constructions do and some others never do ( for example the Gen1 never broke one single unit...)...the warranty policy of brands does also belong to them..

N

ps: 200 protos!

It takes us so much work and time to analysis 10-15 protos over 2 seasons, I wonder how its possible to analyze / feedback 200 in...

Edited March 3, 2014 by nils
200 protos!

[Alexey]

Racers sharping edges after 1-2 trainings.

If you ride at a board within week or more you can forget that your edges have -4 degrees.

*race board made for race line, training, competitions. this is _NOT_ freecarving board.

Yes, I have _original_ Duret snowboard drafts from Jean-Philippe Thevenod. But I didn't open this file(s) last some years.

Sidecut of Bulat board is not the same the swoard sidecat. Camber is different.

I don't have swoard at our factory for sending you compare photos, but I have kessler.

Today I will post here photos.

In Russia, I have big individual "fun club". Face OFF persons here are from this my russian "fun club" . We can see them in this topic.

They have enough cowardice for post anonymous messages in pub forums and enough boldness post here them names.

[TLN]

Wow, OES ?

Just some more 1:1 outline copies of Kessler The Alpine boards and Swoard Extremecarvers?

The big invention is now adding inserts for mounting plates on Swoard copies.

Some days ago we had Olympic games. Did we saw any copy-paste snowboards on top there.

Just NO, we just saw only genuine boards. Kessler won again every gold medal on gate courses. Pumpkin, which offer also raceboards, won on halfpipe.

This doesn't mean there's no place for a such "copies".

For sure top-level riders will prefer Kesslers, but amateur riders cannot notice the difference between Kessler and OES for example. Why should they pay more?

There are many cars that won many races, but you cannot blame someone buying car that didn't win some medals.

Yeah it's a little crazy. We operate in an environment that is "copy the winning model". I'm not evening referring to snowboarding here, this is the model used in business. You succeed through innovation, continual development of product, and keeping your customers happy. Businesses come and businesses go. Cell phones replaced landlines, Windows copied the original Mac OS. The reality is that there is no expectation here that a board shape or design is a sustainable competitive advantage. In fact the racing market has been copying what stands on the podium for years.

^This.

Windows copied the mouse pointer from Mac OS, and the Mac OS copied the mouse pointer from Xerox OS.

I don't know the price for OES, neither tested one, even there's some board for tests nearby. But this looks interesting to me, and I'd be happy to get my hands on.

[snowmatic]

For to go clear, the brand Swoard is not a lazy copy of Wild Duck Knifer!

I think left of the red dot we can read on that WD Knifer ltd 161: shape & concept by Jacques Rilliet

Swoard and Wild Duck Knifer are genuine brands, in this case covering identical shapers!

Even Wild Duck still exists. But they switched over to make now skis only. The new ski brand from Wild Duck SA is Movement ( movementskis.com ), well known and liked for freeskiing and mountaineering skiing.

The edge between "copy" and "copy with some improvement" is not so sharp.

Even there can be no improvements, because the ones which copy, are mostly not able to comprehend the orginal constructions.

Market in Western hemisphere is totaly free. Everyone can build better boards. As I wrote above anyone is welcome to make his own shapes. I mean it's realy easy to get some carbon, Kevlarâ„¢ or similar and mixed fibres and Titanal sheets in Western hemisphere. Myself I can buy/go for such things on stores in a small quantity as a privat person in less than a half hour.

So what happens about "copy with some improvement" since more than one decade?

2002 SLC Olympics world saw first time a Kessler winning gold medall on GS run. Everyone thought that Kessler must be a hoax.

2006 Torino Olympics all PGS gold medals gone again to Kessler riders. Someone have been shocked after that.

2010 Vancouver Olympics all PGS gold medals for Kessler like as usual.

2014 Sochi Olympics, same game like ever, but doubling from 2 gold medals to 4 gold medals.

Well, there have been left 12 Years to make boards better and faster. Even on Sochi Olympics other brands had a new chance to go for gold too. IOC was doubling the podiums. What a great potentiality to other brands to reach for gold too.

What happens again? Like I wrote above, since Vancouver Olympics countless brands did or tried to copy the KST idea only. They had been totaly free for building better boards, but they are just not able to invent. So they stand back on the poor copy-paste league.

Alexey You know, inventions and improvements don't come from asking for posting here name & FIS code!

amateur riders cannot notice the difference between Kessler and OES

There are benfits wich you are not able to get and feel on snow buying a copy.

[TLN]

There are benfits wich you are not able to get and feel on snow buying a copy.

Sure there are some benefits.

But are they worth the price difference for weekend rider? I doubt.

I don't know how much new OES boards costs, but I guess you can get two or three boards for a price of one Kessler.

For me it doesn't really matter if it is a copy of other design or not, as long it it rides well (=fun). Blue_B and some other people(not that forum) state that OES board are quite fun to ride, and that's what I need.

Well, interesing question here, regardless the... plates.

Snowboards were made long time ago and it's hard to tell who made 1st desing. But modern plates were made recently, so.. There's one "original" design and all the rest are copies. :) What plate is original and where are it's benefits? They all have same idea: one slider, one pivot and plate on top.

Regarding of worldcup, we all know what plate were on podium. There was no allflex three years ago. At least I saw it on bomber last year probably.

[*Ace*]

Racers sharping edges after 1-2 trainings.

If you ride at a board within week or more you can forget that your edges have -4 degrees.

Alexey-

This is true, racers tune boards almost daily. This is why I suggest to you that you STOP tuning boards fresh from the factory to specific bevels. Leave that valuable edge material and let the consumer decide how to tune. I'd say 95% of people that buy new alpine boards get them professionally tuned right out of the box.

Edited March 3, 2014 by *Ace*

[b.free]

Ace,

In this topic, we are discussing testing boards,

I haven't seen testing boards not to be tuned before tests.

If you want to buy new one from manufacturer, I believe it will be untuned at all, unless you ask for it.

[RicHard]

The edge between "copy" and "copy with some improvement" is not so sharp.

Even there can be no improvements, because the ones which copy, are mostly not able to comprehend the orginal constructions.

I didn't write "copying brings improvements". In my statement, yours was included. :)

Furthermore, on the Podium I saw even other (titanal) brands. It means, to my eyes, that someone can even copy "comprehending" original constructions. And.. why not... in the future... he can even take his own ideas into such comprehension producing another brand on the podium. :)

[Alexey]

162 OES vs 162 Kessler

[Alexey]

[Alexey]

157 OES vs 157 Kessler

[Alexey]

[BlueB]

I confirm that OES race boards differ from Kesslers in geometry. They have more camber and very different nose decamber. I think it is even more obvious on the GS, as the board is bigger. I'll see later if my bent/broken Kessler 185 is good enough to take a pic against the OES 185...

OES SL rides damper then Kessler, indespite more camber. I'd say it's heavier too.

[tufty]

Alexey

Don't worry about the flaming, there's a lot of it about these days. Far too many people getting invested into what they've "bought in" to (not just in snowboarding, just look at Apple vs MS users, and you'll find a lot of people here who simply can't accept that a freeride / softboot setup can be good). Doesn't matter if your shapes are close to those already used, either, there's only so much innovation that can be had, it's pretty much all incremental. Still, if you get "out there" with some wacky designs it might shut some of the naysayers up.

Speaking of which, if you fancy making a line of skwals, I'd be up for testing :)

Simon

[Alexey]

Thanks!

We are planning to produce and skwals too. But a bit later.

Right now we’re making children slalom line. 120SL (done), 133SL (in process), 145SL (done), 163GS (done)

This weekend we found the proper stiffness for 185GS. We spent for this work about 2 months !

Inside this board are 8 layers excepting base & topsheet.

to BlueB: After sending boards to you we had rebuilt cambers of following models: 162SL, 157SL, 185GS, 175GS, 163GS

For 162SL it has been 5th camber generation. After this rebuilding boards got more easy gone out from a turn. For slalom it's important.

As you see at pictures we ride at other (custom kessler) slalom boards for compare boards ride.

Also we send our boards for test to professional racers. Some from them changed kessler to OES. Some said that kessler is more good.

But we continue polishing our 162/157SL line.

About edges: we produce CUSTOM boards. For each board we can produce any other options. All models which we produce have at least 2 versions of stiffness. Regular (medium) and soft. ("S" after size number at the tail, "M" - medium, "H" - hard)

Race boards which we produce have 5 types of base sides (for different temperatures & humidity). 2 types of sidewall's (regular ABS & Phenol. Phenol is famous race ski topic.) Also we have a lot of other options.

About freecarving boards:

If you have your dream about geometry of board - say it about me and it's possible that we'll start produce it. I need to receive from you file in AutoCAD (or any other file format in original size) draft of board shape + camber draft. Also we can produce your personal design for this board.

Edited March 3, 2014 by Alexey

[Unicorn Poop]

Holy crap, can't a guy just build some damn snowboards? I'd love for this thread get back to the topic at hand, and that being the review of Bulat boards. Who cares if they're copies, near knock offs, or inspired by another brand? Let the boards speak for themselves; if they work, they work.

Alexey, keep up the good work, man. I'd love to ride one of your boards, but BlueB is too far for me. I hope one day your boards make it to Utah. ;)

BlueB- please more reviews! I've been following this with interest.

[softbootsurfer]

Holy crap, can't a guy just build some damn snowboards? I'd love for this thread get back to the topic at hand, and that being the review of Bulat boards. Who cares if they're copies, near knock offs, or inspired by another brand? Let the boards speak for themselves; if they work, they work.

Alexey, keep up the good work, man. I'd love to ride one of your boards, but BlueB is too far for me. I hope one day your boards make it to Utah. ;)

BlueB- please more reviews! I've been following this with interest.

This is WHY there is an Equipment Forum, for the purpose of Reviews and Comments by members trying various boards and or other equipment...it is located below the Classifieds section...maybe move this thread there and continue the War

[BlueB]

Voice of reason, SBS.

Here we go: http://www.bomberonline.com/VBulletin/showthread.php

[Donek]

There's a really big myth going around here regarding copying other boards.

To set the record straight, IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO COPY ANOTHER MANUFACTURERS BOARD AND GET THE SAME RESULTS!!!!!

We developed skis for a small popular Colorado brand for several years. We then passed the engineering drawings off to a major producer that makes really good production stuff. Even though this manufacturer copied what we did based on the engineering drawings provided, the skis did not perform the same.

Regardless of how closely someone attempts to copy another's design, it is impossible to copy the subtle differences introduced by the manufacturing process. It simply can't be done. As manufacturers, we take inspiration from our colleagues and build upon their successes. This is, in fact, the way the world works when we are driven by information. You see it in all sorts of industries.

At SES I spent a fair bit of time on my favorite board from our line, the 185 REV. Heines from Oxxess showed me their 185 world Cup board and let me take it out for a couple runs. Unlike our board, theirs had a fixed sidecut radius and some very different flex and laminate technology incorporated, yet the two boards, designed for the exact same task and developed by world cup competitive riders exhibited only very subtle differences in performance. There are multiple ways to arrive at the same result, spiral, circular, parabolic sidecuts all work, but there is a special sauce that comes into the equation that can not be quantified or duplicated.

[tufty]

Right now we’re making children slalom line. 120SL (done), 133SL (in process), 145SL (done), 163GS (done)

Now, that's interesting. A few of the kids at the club here have expressed interest in snowboard PS/PGS, but finding boards for them is quasi-impossible.

[Alexey]

From left to righ: 120, 133, 145

[snowmatic]

A few of the kids at the club here have expressed interest in snowboard PS/PGS, but finding boards for them is quasi-impossible.

F2 Speedster Junior are available in 139cm (30-45kg) and 145cm (35-55kg) now. Ask au-vieux-campeur!

You can buy them also as in similar shape, branded as TRANS Race Pro SL for Euro 50.- less, then F2 Speedster, but they come without wax-topsheet like on F2.

For next season F2 Speedster Junior leght 125cm and 131cm are avaiable too.

F2 comes with proofed functionality, quality and warranty out of thg GST factory.

[Gabe T]

Hi BlueB,

Some time ago, you posted some review comments for one of the test boards. You mentioned that it rode excellent in good conditions but felt 'stiff' when conditions were not so good. I can't find the post so I assume it was lost during the website outage a few weeks ago.

Can you elaborate? Hopefully you recall this as I can't remember what board you were referring to. Would you say it handled exceptionally well on hard and/or icy conditions but not so well on softer / bumpy conditions? How would you describe the stiffness of the board? Any idea what the sidecut/camber profile was on the board?

I've had similar experiences on a board but couldn't quite figure out what was causing its feel; performed exceptionally well in icy conditions which I would correlate with the board having a softer flex, yet when I got it in soft bumps or powdery conditions, the sensation was that the board was not bending that much.

[BlueB]

Hi BlueB,

Some time ago, you posted some review comments for one of the test boards. You mentioned that it rode excellent in good conditions but felt 'stiff' when conditions were not so good. I can't find the post so I assume it was lost during the website outage a few weeks ago.

Can you elaborate? Hopefully you recall this as I can't remember what board you were referring to. Would you say it handled exceptionally well on hard and/or icy conditions but not so well on softer / bumpy conditions? How would you describe the stiffness of the board? Any idea what the sidecut/camber profile was on the board?

I've had similar experiences on a board but couldn't quite figure out what was causing its feel; performed exceptionally well in icy conditions which I would correlate with the board having a softer flex, yet when I got it in soft bumps or powdery conditions, the sensation was that the board was not bending that much.

Hi Gabe,

It is in that other revie "no flaming" thread, here:

http://www.bomberonline.com/VBulletin/showthread.php?41964-On-Edge-Style-OES-reviews&p=420237#post420237

It was the Bulat EC 168. I found it great on hero snow, you know it - solid groomed, but where you can dig the edge in easily. Before that, I rode it in the evening on refrozen poorly groomed/day abused runs, it was shockingly hard to ride. I also had it on a soft day with some freshies, but where you could find some ice under, didn't carve too great in that, but I was able to ride steep moguls on it?!?

The board is stiff, very grippy and stiff torsionally, not too much camber, maybe 10mm or less.