Flex Preference?

[Trevor Joren]

Hi guys, what are your thoughts on boards that are in the upper end of flex category - 7 > 10. 

Advantages / Disadvantages to playful > Ultra stiff?

For carving, what are your preferences? 

 

These are boards I've been looking at, and their flex's... 

 

https://www.jonessnowboards.com/snowboarding/202-412-hovercraft.html#/102-size-148 7

https://www.jonessnowboards.com/snowboarding/209-ultra-mind-expander.html 8 https://bataleon.com/products/bataleon-carver-snowboard-2021-2022? 7 

https://www.jonessnowboards.com/snowboarding/103-storm-wolf.html 8 

https://www.evo.com/snowboards/korua-shapes-pencil-snowboard 7

https://www.jonessnowboards.com/snowboarding/213-346-flagship.html#/61-size-151 8 

https://www.amplid.com/snowboards/centrifugal-collection/1345/pentaquark 8 

https://slashsnow.com/product/slash-atv?v=7516fd43adaa 5

https://capitasnowboarding.com/products/mega-merc 6.5

lib-tech.com/t-rice-pro 7 

https://www.nidecker.com/en/snowboards/371-1522-blade-plus.html#/198-size-158l 10

Blade 7

https://www.nidecker.com/en/snowboards/23-1147-tracer.html#/206-size-157gl 8 

https://www.nidecker.com/en/snowboards/65-1462-spectre.html#/213-size-157n 8 

Project X 7 

Burton Custom X 8 

Korua Otto 7 

Arbor A Frame 8 

https://www.yesnowboard.com/snowboards/328-optimistic.html 9 

 

I've just purchased the Donek Flux, and it's built at an 8 - I was thinking about getting another made at 9. Thoughts? 

[BlueB]

I'd rather ride a too soft, than a too stiff board. 

[barryj]

1 hour ago, BlueB said:

I'd rather ride a too soft, than a too stiff board. 

Yeah,  what B says..........

Trevor I wouldn't call any of those boards you listed Stiff......yes they are stiff compared to a noodle parkrat board.  For a soft boot board for carving I would suggest an Alloy D.O. or  AZX......now were starting to talk a real 8 on the stiffness scale!....but you can ride it all day long!!   http://alloysnow.com/default/    

A really Stiff board is Very responsive but Man! your legs are Dead after just a couple of hours!  I'll give up some responsiveness to be able to ride all day! 

Good luck with your hunt.........

Edited December 13, 2021 by barryj

[philw]

Ride them all and see.

I've not ridden any of those other than the T-Rice Pro, but they have so many variants of that, you can't really know what they're like without actually riding them. The T-Rice boards I rode were not particularly fun in powder despite the marketing (they're twins and the tails are therefore not designed to turn well in powder - you need directional for best feel and performance there).

I would not get too involved with "flex numbers", whatever they are, as at least with boards I've ridden, that's just a hand-waving relative guide, not something you can rely on, especially as board designs can vary a lot.


 

[Neil Gendzwill]

I have no idea if you can compare those stiffness numbers at all. Plus you’re talking with a bunch of people who mostly ride alpine gear. I’ve got a Flagship 162W. If it’s a 7 then the softer of my 2 active alpine boards must be about a 15 on that scale and the stiffer one around 20. And I don’t have anything that is really stiff. 

[dhamann]

in my experience, any off the shelf softboot board will actually ride at least one flex down from what it says. i am basing this on never summer, nidecker boards and a nitro pantera boards i've riden in the past. my nitro pantera that is for sale is a 166w and supposedly an 8 flex. it's a freestyle kinda 7 to me. take flex ratings with a grain of salt from most manufacturers. if you're looking for stiffer than a donek 8 then have one made based on weight, riding style, etc. talk to them. any reputable board builder. F2, oxess, SG, etc board stiffness are typically what they should be. overbuilding is always a regret, but you can always sell. welcome to the rabbit hole. just my two cents.

 

alpine board stiffness vs softboot board stiffness = apples vs oranges

Edited December 13, 2021 by dhamann

[dredman]

9 hours ago, BlueB said:

I'd rather ride a too soft, than a too stiff board.

Yes

[JohnE]

Have you ridden your Donek Flux? I had one made for me at 160 pounds. I don't know how boardmakers characterize flex but I love the way my Flux rides. I don't think I would want it any softer or stiffer. 

[BlueB]

10 hours ago, barryj said:

A really Stiff board is Very responsive but Man! your legs are Dead after just a couple of hours!  I'll give up some responsiveness to be able to ride all day! 

Hi Barry! What is your definition of responsive? To me, when I ignore other factors and focus only on flex, softer is more responsive. It will start bending and carving at lower speed and less input, than an equal stiffer board. Also, once bent and carving, softer would still be easier manipulate by rider input (or react to terrain induced pressure). However, at certain speed/rider weight/pitch, any board can "run out of gas". For the softer one it would happen earlier than for a stiffer one. Thus, softer is always more responsive, be it in a good or bad way. All of this assuming that the flex, either soft, or stiff, is somewhere near the required ballpark for the rider/application. With the extremes, it's all out of the window. 

... 

As others already said, the flex index numbers really can not be compared between makers, or even within the same brand sometimes. It's even worse than the shoe sizes of the "street shoes". 

[BlueB]

2 hours ago, JohnE said:

Have you ridden your Donek Flux? I had one made for me at 160 pounds. I don't know how boardmakers characterize flex but I love the way my Flux rides. I don't think I would want it any softer or stiffer. 

Our custom makers tend to do the right flex for the rider weight and style, when you talk to them honestly while ordering. If anything, they'll rather make an error on stiffer side, for obvious reasons of product longevity and quality perception. I often found stock Doneks stiffer than stock Coilers, which in their turn were stiffer than stock Priors. But, this is a very anecdotal observation... Probably not even fair to compare between various models. 

Edited December 13, 2021 by BlueB

[JohnE]

I think Coiler has some means to characterize the stiffness of a board. Not sure if Donek does as well. 

Some time ago I tried to measure the relative stiffness of several boards: I supported the board on blocks at it's contact points and put a fairly big weight (a bucket of water) at the waist and measured the deflection. Knowing the weight of the bucket I was able to measure the "pounds per inch". Has anyone else come up with a similar technique? What did you find?

I'd have to repeat this between my Coiler and my Donek to see if there is a significant difference. 

[barryj]

1 hour ago, BlueB said:

Hi Barry! What is your definition of responsive?

Hey B, I say these are my top 3 super most responsive rides I've experienced.....but at the cost of (my 65 years old) legs exploding after a couple of hours from personal experience in order of (too) stiffness= Donek MK,  Virus  UFC,  Coiler Anngry    Don't get me wrong....I loved all 3 rides but my thighs hated them!

Of course my Thirst SF162 is very responsive  but not crazy super responsive like a MK or UFC

1 hour ago, BlueB said:

stock Doneks stiffer than stock Coilers, which in their turn were stiffer than stock Priors.

Yeah B, totally agree with you on this........... 

[scottishsurfer]

Donek built a stiffer flexing incline for me with non directional flex(not sure if standard on incline) where the nose is the same stiffness as the tail. For me one of the most important things is to have a board i can rely on to not buckle especially in the nose where it hits choppy or soft snow id rather it try to punch through that bend and climb. The Sg soul is a great board but the softer nose is not to my liking it had a habit of overflexing on turn entry leading to the board wanting to enter a turn far to tight often causing my weight getting thrown further forward leading to the turn becoming even tighter again....

and for a laugh this is what happens when the a Salomon rep asks what i thought of the stiffness of there HPS surf carve/pow board

[neanderthal]

I would suggest ultracraft rather than hovercraft as it is a bit stiffer and carves better

[dhamann]

1 hour ago, scottishsurfer said:

The Sg soul is a great board but the softer nose is not to my liking it had a habit of overflexing on turn entry leading to the board wanting to enter a turn far to tight often causing my weight getting thrown further forward leading to the turn becoming even tighter again....

I have a 64xt on the way (10.75m sidecut). what makes up this 10.75? It’s secret. However my 68 coiler bxfr with a 10m average scr does exactly what you describe above. Maybe the 64 vs the 68 will be more “responsive”? Reaction and rebound wise, as opposed to a softer board having a delayed response but easier to manage carving at low angle speeds. Idk yet but I guess I’ll find out. 
 

To answer Trevor’s original question: I prefer an 8m stiffer softboot/bx board (“8” or “9” donek) or a slightly softer (“7” or “8+”) 10ish meter sidecut for freecarve. Anything in between is fine too. Willing to try anything stiffer or larger scr but like others have said above. They’re very committed boards. Short lived fun. Not a fan of softer. Build something else for the cost of some of those stiffer options you list. JJA might have what your looking for?

[philw]

Just thinking about this.

The OP talks about "carving", which I think probably means riding hardpack, and asks about:

Quote

"advantages / disadvantages to playful > Ultra stiff?".

For that specific question, I think.. that the best thing to do is to ride a range of boards, or even one board in a range of sizes, then you can see directly what stiffness does. My own views are something like...

• There's a speed beyond which any board loses it's responsiveness. You can easily feel this if you just ride as fast as you can, until the point that you feel that you can really only fine tune your line by first dumping speed. That speed is easily attained although it may be quicker than almost anyone you'll see would ride.
• You can ride a very stiff board, but at lower speeds you'll find you have to aggressively down-weight to get it to turn well slowly. That's easiest to observe at the end of the day when you're tired and on technical slopes where you need to turn lots, on demand.

In terms of advantages/ disadvantages, well that's all there is too it, really. If you normally ride at resort speeds, then buying an "ultra stiff" board designed for high-speed racing on closed runs would be... a disadvantage. Ditto if you expect to be comfortable in moguls. Equally if you're normally the fastest rider on the hill, you'd probably find a "playful" board less fun than something designed for what you're doing. 

Note also that a board will have stiffness which varies with load, it's a curve not a straight line. So you really do need to ride to know how a board will behave. Some boards have a surprisingly wide speed range, others an abrupt transition from "responsive" to "overpowered".

I'd ride a few boards, forget about numbers and all that, and just pick the one you have most fun on. If you can't do that, then I'd look very closely at (a) the manufacturer's recommended weight range; and (b) what the marketing says the intended use is; (c) what others are riding. Reviews are at best useless and at worst just marketing.

 

[Trevor Joren]

Wow, excellent feedback from all of you - I ordered the flux with their standard build, relying on the expertise of Thedo Remmelink and Sean - I told him my weight, not sure if it influenced the decision making process of board build tho - I'm happy to see all the feedback. Bottom line looks like it'll be a safe bet to go with the 8, as it's the right blend of ride all day / stiffness compromise. I want something that I can still olley well, since my last board was a Jones MTN twin - this new order is my first of transition into carving. 

I believe this is standard flex - Ryan Knapton on Flux - beautiful fluid and smooth carves

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsBWBu-eSx4

Edited December 15, 2021 by Trevor Joren

[JohnE]

I wish that I  could say that buying a Flux would allow me to ride like Ryan (but I don't)!

However it is the best board I have ever owned. 

[crackaddict]

On 12/13/2021 at 11:18 AM, JohnE said:

I think Coiler has some means to characterize the stiffness of a board. Not sure if Donek does as well. 

Some time ago I tried to measure the relative stiffness of several boards: I supported the board on blocks at it's contact points and put a fairly big weight (a bucket of water) at the waist and measured the deflection. Knowing the weight of the bucket I was able to measure the "pounds per inch". Has anyone else come up with a similar technique? What did you find?

I'd have to repeat this between my Coiler and my Donek to see if there is a significant difference. 

Mark Miller at Thirst Snowboards @BLOODTYPEZX10R has come up with an ingenious method of comparing board stiffness: The Flex Index.

Take two small blocks of wood 2.25" inches high and set them parallel on the floor such that the distance between them is equal to the effective edge of the board you're measuring.  Put the board on the blocks with the widest parts of the board lining up with the inside of the blocks then put an analog bathroom scale on top of the middle of the board and push down on it with your foot until the base of the board just touches the ground.  Check the reading on the scale at this point (in lbs) and divide it by the effective edge of the board (in cms), this is the Flex Index for that board.

A Flex Index of .100 is pretty soft, .300 is quite stiff, over .500 gets into the extremely stiff range.

 

 

Edited December 16, 2021 by crackaddict

[snowburn]

On 12/15/2021 at 9:34 PM, crackaddict said:

Mark Miller at Thirst Snowboards @BLOODTYPEZX10R has come up with an ingenious method of comparing board stiffness: The Flex Index.

Take two small blocks of wood 2.25" inches high and set them parallel on the floor such that the distance between them is equal to the effective edge of the board you're measuring.  Put the board on the blocks with the widest parts of the board lining up with the inside of the blocks then put an analog bathroom scale on top of the middle of the board and push down on it with your foot until the base of the board just touches the ground.  Check the reading on the scale at this point (in lbs) and divide it by the effective edge of the board (in cms), this is the Flex Index for that board.

A Flex Index of .100 is pretty soft, .300 is quite stiff, over .500 gets into the extremely stiff range.

Ingenious indeed! Wish this was a industry standard for layman's standards. This sure beats the old way standing the board up and pushing in the middle like Flintstones. 

[SunSurfer]

On 12/16/2021 at 5:34 PM, crackaddict said:

Mark Miller at Thirst Snowboards @BLOODTYPEZX10R has come up with an ingenious method of comparing board stiffness: The Flex Index.

Take two small blocks of wood 2.25" inches high and set them parallel on the floor such that the distance between them is equal to the effective edge of the board you're measuring.  Put the board on the blocks with the widest parts of the board lining up with the inside of the blocks then put an analog bathroom scale on top of the middle of the board and push down on it with your foot until the base of the board just touches the ground.  Check the reading on the scale at this point (in lbs) and divide it by the effective edge of the board (in cms), this is the Flex Index for that board.

A Flex Index of .100 is pretty soft, .300 is quite stiff, over .500 gets into the extremely stiff range.

 

 

Bemused at the mixing of SI and non-SI units. Pleased to see a move towards repeatable quantitative flex assessment that allows comparison of boards within a rider's own collection. Loading required to produce a standard chord depth is a very summarised description of board flex.

I suspect a description of flex curve radii under a range of static loads would be the ideal given the interaction of flex, SCR and edge angle in creating a final groove in the snow. Learning how to interpret that data might be beyond almost all but the board designers and builders.

[Corey]

6 hours ago, SunSurfer said:

Bemused at the mixing of SI and non-SI units.

Welcome to North America! 

Before digital scales became common, getting a scale that read in kg would have been a special-order item in N.A. 

[Chouinard]

On 12/14/2021 at 5:34 AM, philw said:

Note also that a board will have stiffness which varies with load, it's a curve not a straight line.

Its a family of curves.

8 hours ago, SunSurfer said:

I suspect a description of flex curve radii under a range of static loads would be the ideal given the interaction of flex, SCR and edge angle in creating a final groove in the snow.

With all the time a shutdown provides I did my own little study but I was looking for insights on how a gecko plate affected the flex curves. I suspended a board on rotating pvc pipes at the two ends of the effective length and then measured the deflection with a dial indicator along its length while loading the binding locations with 5 lbs., 15 lbs. and 25 lbs. [each].  The red boxes indicate the extent of the bindings. I assumed there would be a flat spot in the curves under the bindings/gecko footprint but my rudimentary setup was not sensitive to discern them. A single static board deflection is a coarse measure of flex...how the deflection changes under load better describes the board response.