Heel Side Woes

[barryj]

:freak3:My heel side sucks! My toe side drops in super clean, but my heel side catches and then rails, and then chatters and then rails again...it's unnerving! It's like it wants to hold but my body english isn't inputing the right info to the board.

I'm using Gilmour bais to the max of my binding (and it's the best it's been at this setting) on the front foot and moderatly on the rear.

Without really knowing why, I feel like I need to:

1 - move front plate up slightly for more weight on the front - so more bite=less chatter on heel side????

or:2 - turn my rear foot angle in a degree or two to help with heel side initiation???? What do you guys think?

[Corey]

I'd focus on technique first. Focus on pushing the sidewall of the board into the snow, not pushing straight down on the topsheet. Plus, drop your lead hip sideways to the snow.

Then, push the board into the snow hard very early in the turn, then ease off as you get to the later portion of the turn. There's a limit to how much pressure the snow can take, by putting in a lot of energy at the start of the turn you don't need as much force later in the turn when you're more likely to chatter out.

BTW: take the intermediate class at SES, we go over these exact issues!

[jtslalom]

Take A look here http://www.bomberonline.com/resources/Techarticles/your_butt.html

I find that most riders that are having difficulty with their heelside carve have the "butt out" problem. Providing you are driving your turns with your knees, I think by squaring your shoulders through your turn usually remedies this problem. Good Luck

Edited February 4, 2013 by jtslalom

[barryj]

Thanks for the info guys,

Corey,

I'm all over the Intermediate class at SES - sign me up -NOW! Saw it on the schedule for Sun.

JT,

I never get to ride with any other riders, seem like the lone carver out here in N. CA!...to see/hear wht I'm doing or not, but I'd bet I have that problem also.

I'll check out the link- thanks so much ~

[Dan]

Hey Barry,

I had exactly that problem, and solved it overnight by buying a metal Coiler. :biggthump

(funny because it's true.)

But then when I went back to a glass board, the heelside chatter returned. Alpine instructor extraordinaire Tae gave me a drill in his clinic at N.I.C.E. that helped me beat it for good: on both heel and toe turns, imagine using your outside hand to pick up a short cone (think of a cone you'd use for soccer dribbling drills, not a traffic cone) off the snow at the apex of your turn. (i.e., the cone is located where a slalom gate would be.) That forces you to get your body into the position that the other posters are describing -- I found this easier for me to visualize / execute than thinking about moving the hips / shoulders. For full effect, Tae recommended reaching _over_ your inside hand as you reach towards the snow...I'm still working on that, but any reaching in and down to the apex of the turn with my outside hand is very effective at getting my body correctly positioned and killing heelside chatter.

[pogokoenig]

This is indeed a very good advice that probably helps most people with heelside problems. There are some very good drills to get into that body rotation. However without getting a proper description of your problem and / or a video it will be almost impossible to really help you.

[michael.a]

It's your technique 100%. I've come up with a nice little ballerina exercise that helps practice rotation, angulation, shoulder/arm position for both toe and heel side, but it'll be a few months before it's on youtube.

Though I must say that it's disappointing to see that most people think their lack of ability in performing a certain athletic feat is based on a belief of technical or equipment inferiority.

[RobertAlexander]

yellow springs along with yellow elastometers

[Rob Stevens]

However without getting a proper description of your problem and / or a video it will be almost impossible to really help you.

No doubt! Don't even bother asking for feedback on your riding without images of the riding!!!

Sorry to be a dick, but any "tips" you get could totally lead you in the wrong direction. Oh yeah... If you do get video, get someone to hold the camera. No POV or reverse-angle GoPro (I mean NoBros... The camera of choice for the terminally friendless) footage!

[two_ravens]

It's probably a technique thing, but when you get to SES you might have someone take a look at your bindings too. Gilmore bias is useful when the board width calls for it, but it will mess you up if it's not what is needed. I run the opposite of Gilmore bias (Gilmore Anti-bias?) on my current board and find that small adjustments in bias make big differences in how solid heel or toe side turns feel. Lots of in-person advice to be found in Aspen next week, which will likely be more relevant than online guesses! :)

[Steve Prokopiw]

Hey Rob Stevens,as a pov enthusiast myself,I call BS on your statement about 'nobros'.I have wonderful friends who have miraculously remained so,despite my frequent use of a board mounted p.o.v. camera mount. I have made a few more because of the conversations it has started.I also remove it from the board and use it to follow them around.You might be too cool to associate with me,but my friends and the folks who seem genuinely interested in what I have developed will get me through the loneliness I would otherwise feel due the snubbing from the ultra cool crowd you must hang with.

BTW,with my pov camera mount I catch nearly everything about my form, and the function and results of my movements.If I have so much as a pinky out of place I see it.If I play around with style and form I see it.When my heelside sucks on my pov video,I go back out and improve it.I would happily analyze another rider using it.In fact, I will be doing so next weekend.It does have it's drawbacks,such as being better on longer boards with a longer boom in order to frame more of the rider,but it has proven to be a useful tool so far;especially when combined with 3rd person vid of the same rider,which is why my client will get both types of footage next weekend.

No need to brand everybody who's into something you're not as friendless, Rob. It's all in good fun;and maybe even useful. :-)

[Rob Stevens]

I said some other stuff, but erased it in favour of saying "put a space after your commas".

That'd be ultra cool!

[Steve Prokopiw]

I said some other stuff, but erased it in favour of saying "put a space after your commas".

That'd be ultra cool!

I erased a bunch of stuff too. Great minds think alike.

[Rob Stevens]

Cool minds think differently.

[Steve Prokopiw]

What Dan wrote about Tae's advice is what I do myself when I feel the need for my heelside, but it is only applicable with the body position is low with plenty of angulation in the joints and with the hip dropped inside the turn.If it is done from a tall or upright position without much bend in the knees,it just results in a pivot turn. I have a couple of boards that demand that I reach toward the nose with my back hand on heelsides, especially when carving steeps.If I'm feeling a little lazy or not 100% and forget to do that, I chatter out of the carve.

Edited February 5, 2013 by Steve Prokopiw

[Jack M]

Without seeing your technique, I would like to just offer this piece of advice which I think works with any technique:

Look where you want the carve to go, right when you change edges.

Whenever I get lazy and allow myself to just look down the hill is when my heelsides fall apart. Really turn your head around as you are changing edges, and pick something across the trail to aim for. A little pile of snow, a patch of cord, or just a general area, and fix on it throughout the carve. You'll probably surprise yourself with how much this helps, and how accurately your board will travel to that spot.

Another tip is to keep both hands in your peripheral vision.

Good luck!

[barryj]

Thanks for all the insight guys. Really appreciate it..... knowing it's all speculation without seeing my technique.

Looking forward to learning and riding from all of you attending SES - I flyout FRI.!!! Can't wait!

[Mellow Yellow]

Thanks for all the insight guys. Really appreciate it..... knowing it's all speculation without seeing my technique.

Looking forward to learning and riding from all of you attending SES - I flyout FRI.!!! Can't wait!

Don't ride with Shred Gruuumer or Helmet Karvlow, that is all the advice I can give....

Edited February 5, 2013 by Mellow Yellow

[fin]

barryj,

All these guys have given excellent advice. And sad but true, in these situations it is usually technique. Historically I find the toe side turn "easier" to master at the learning stages as you have more balance, absorption ability (ankles), and you are not "blind". The heel side relies heavily on technique as you have less balance, less absorption (no more ankle), and the turn is blind (towards your backside).

Excellent we are going to see you at SES! Please come to the demo tent and introduce yourself. I will make sure we introduce you to some guys that can help you out. And as Mellow said, how to avoid Shred and Helmet ;)

See you soon!

[lowrider]

barryj,

All these guys have given excellent advice. And sad but true, in these situations it is usually technique. Historically I find the toe side turn "easier" to master at the learning stages as you have more balance, absorption ability (ankles), and you are not "blind". The heel side relies heavily on technique as you have less balance, less absorption (no more ankle), and the turn is blind (towards your backside).

Excellent we are going to see you at SES! Please come to the demo tent and introduce yourself. I will make sure we introduce you to some guys that can help you out. And as Mellow said, how to avoid Shred and Helmet ;)

See you soon!

If you haven't got rear heel lift Shred won't let you ride with him. (Min.3 degree)

[John Gilmour]

hard to tell without seeing you.

1. Lots of heelside bias moves your heel backwards in high stance angles... it's ok to move your binding forward to compensate... (I do)

2. Turning your rear angle will help for heelside - but at some point will really hamper your toeside. Going too flat in angle will make it initiate a bit too fast before you can get low. Too steep and your ankle doesn't work that way.

having a strong toeside will help give you more time and balance for a good heelside.

FWIW most people I try to help with their heelside turn are way tooooo tall on their board.

So let's say you are doing your comfortable toeside.- You nudge the board with your front knee to start the tilt- you drop the hammer with your rear knee- effectively lowering your center of mass right over your toe edge- and you make sure you help that knee with even more front knee a millisecond later...so you aren't steering from the rear.

Now look at the height of your center off mass- if you really dropped your rear knee (almost scuffing the snow) ...your center of mass should NO HIGHER than the height of your knee to your bellybutton.

Do this on your carpet to check it.

Ok so it would follow if you want the same grip......

on your heelside.....

It would make sense if your center of mass was at the same height on your heelside.....or lower (which is pretty easy on the heelside once you relax and don't press against the snow-see my avatar photo which is a heel side)

But most people have their center of mass WAY above knee height on their heelsides. (can you say....CHATTER OUT?)

So ...uh ............fix that.

Or come riding with me. I'm in SoCal but about to go to Aspen.

Some people run anti-"Gilmour Bias". Ray S. does on his narrow Virus. He rides great and rides about 70 degree angles ..ride what works best for you. I am super bowlegged ( hard boots I run 63-65 front and 48-51 rear- Soft I am 45 front and about 32-36 rear) ) ...everyone is built differently.

"Gilmour Bias" was first used by me to ride boards that were too wide for me. Then I found mild amounts of it was really good for carving because it enables me to face downhill more- and ......makes the board feel more stable running flat (wider platform laterally) ....and helps with endless traverses because you no longer have to lift with your toes or stand on your tip toes... (just put weight on the front heel without tipping to go heelside or weight on the rear toe without tipping to go toeside) .

Lots of people ride without it, and are perfectly happy. But then again 50% of the people probably voted for the wrong President. Do what works for you...even if it is wrong...and someday you might try something that you thought was wrong but works far better. try Anti Bias...if nothing else... just to prove to yourself that you were definitely on the right or wrong track for you.

If I ride without "Gilmour Bias"...It totally stresses my ankles. It makes me a weak rider. It puts my joints at risk for a strain or sprain at higher speeds in clumpy snow. YMMV.

"Gilmour Bias" helps on my front foot for heelsides, but "Gilmour Bias" really helps on my toe sides when I let my rear toes hang off a bit...particularly my 3rd and 4th toes.

BTW Everyone above my post gives excellent advice.. all are things I mention to people.

I would also say try to relax on your heel side...it requires a lot more body compression than toeside. Most people hold their breath heelside becuse of the uncertainty of hitting someone..and become stiff... this is BAD.

SOOOOOO...

You know those inflatable snowman things you see on lawns with the blowers going during X-mas?

The air keeps them rigid.

If you unplug the snowman fan..he can fold up and get low.

Make sure you exhale when getting low....and keep exhaling...if you run out of air before your turn is over...take a few tiny breaths in and out to stay relaxed..so you can absorb the terrain with your core... soft core is better than hard core.

Do not push against the snow (particularly when you are moving across the hill - INSTEAD ...absorbtrack. ..I know this is absolutely completely counter-intuitive----YOU DON'T WANT TO OVERLOAD THE SNOW when you are moving across the hill ) Why because gravity adds to your downward force and lateral forces on steeps... and that makes the snow blow out.

RELAX/ABSORB/PILOT/TRACK ---->do not stiffen and do a leg press...you'll just blow out and chatter out at speed.

Lastly... since I'm "Mr. Safety"....

Something I said to someone ...

Let's say you have a board with a 12M sidecut radius. So if you carve a 360 carve which everyone says I can not do... you make a circle with a 75.36M circumference.

OK.. FINE.

Now you are snowboarding downhill... and you do a toeside turn. You move your head about 10-15 degrees as you arc and you see where you are going... you are not tense.. you have tons of balance (your haed isn't moving much - balance is in your inner ear) ... you have ankle articulation and adjustment.

No you do a heelside turn.

1. which is blind.

and causes issues.

First off... any person will have issues until they make sense of risk.

With toeside...the perceived risk is low, you stay relaxed, you can see into the turn, you see all "threats from above" and can turn relaxed knowing you are safe.

Heelside comes with a feeling of uncertainty.

You set up for heel side- take a quick peek up at the end o... but in the back of your mind you think you might have missed someone.

You start your blind turn- looking downhill in front of you.

all of a sudden you are moving across the hill and chattering out..or maybe this occurs during the uphill climb...

screw that.

-------------------------------

Ok.. some logic..

Lets go "SPOCK" on this.

Lets say you are going 15-20mph (easy..pretty slow ..verging on LAME)

You can easily see 4 seconds in front of you. (i.e. where you would be in 4 sec. if you went straight downhill).

If you did a perfect heel side turn of radius 12 meters. How many feet would you travel before you were moving direct across the hill....ie not going the down hill anymore?

Well if you are starting your turn at 3 o'clock on the dial and 6 o'clock is perpendicular to the fall line... you went through a 90 degree arc. (A 1/4 turn). so 75.36M divided by 4 equals...... a little more than 18M. ABOUT the length of 2 Chevrolet Suburbans.

Do Ya think you could not look downhill if you only have to worry about what is a 2 Chevy Suburbans in length in front of you?

OF course you can.

On a 12M sidecut board as soon as you initate a turn....... In the length of 2 Suburbans ....you will no longer be going downhill . A 8.8 M Madd 158 might be a Chevey Tahoe.

So basically- you can memorize what is a car length or two in front of you and look away.

Sooo lets say you have just finished looking uphill toeside. (moving your head 10-15 degrees.)

Now you wanna go heelside. If you swirl your head 140 degrees real quickly.....in a turn- while tilted... to look uphill....... it is really disorienting. You have crystals in your inner ear for balance. It takes a bit after flicking your head for the liquid to stop swirling and to regain your balance. (Gymnasts overcome this with cues...we will assume you are not a gymnast)

If you look downhill it is worse because you are fighting the direction your board wants to go. BAD.

So when do you turn your head????

IDEALLY when you are not tilting your board a lot (requiring maximal balance) ie WAY EARLY in the turn (Like when pointed nearly directly downhill. that is when you whip your head-when you need your balance the least! . That way... your balance has a few milliseconds to recover BEFORE you really need it at high board inclination angles.

SO SPOCK logic here.... after you start turning ...in the length of a suburban ...where all all the "threats?" are they downhill?...NO, they are ALL uphill.

So in one car length which at 15-20mph goes by in like less than .5 sec....... nothing downhill MATTERS AT ALL.... only uphill threats matter. You couldn't even count to two before you are barely moving downhill and mostly moving across the hill.

Which means...you had better start looking uphill and not downhill ....ie twist the crap out of your body and head so you don't kill someones kid.

Because... if in .5 sec or less you could hit someone in your blind spot...

...You had better fix that blind spot.

If you are low and twisted- and looking uphill in the direction you will be in 2 seconds.... (and someone was on your heel side)

You could change your mind (quickly roll onto your downhill edge) and avoid a collision.

but if you aren't looking uphill when you start your heelside... you'll never have that margin of safety. (And neither will everyone else on the slope with you) -------> SELFISH.

HINT.. If you stand tall... unless you are Linda Blair from the Exorcist you can not twist enough. You must be compressed and low to be physically able to twist enough to see uphill.

NOW....

Stand up from your keyboard.

Stand in your stance

Without twisting your hips...try to see over your front shoulder uphill.

YOU CAN'T SEE CRAP.

Now try this...

get in your stance.

THE FOLLOWING IS THE KEY TO THE UNIVERSE FOR THE HEELSIDE TURN:

move your rear elbow forward of your front knee(get your rear wrist over to the heelside of your front leg) while flexing your ankles and knees forward up the center line of the board...dropping your navel to the height of where your knees would be while exhaling.... it will be very easy to look uphill from this position without straining your neck....in fact you just drop your head down a bit for a sec to see behind you without having to violently whip your head around (so you don't have to give up much up balance temporarily ). DOING THIS WILL MAKE SURE YOUR ASS CRACK IS OVER THE EDGE..so you will not be sitting on the toilet. If you hit bad snow clumps..your ass crack will still stay over the edge

However,..... If you are sitting on the toilet (ass hanging off of the edge) and hit snow clumps you will be thrown further from the edge until you lose your balance and chatter out.

Now you have seen behind you...now you are low, now your body AND MOST IMPORTANTLY YOUR HEAD is leading (twisted) in the direction of the turn ...ONLY NOW... CAN YOU TILT THE BOARD.

If you did this right on your carpet you would feel the heelside side of your front foot load up with weight...which is obviously....GOOD.

BTW try to keep the uphill armpit open to the slope. yes it feels weird... but it works. Don't forget to relax/absorb/exhale/pilot. And involve the rear foot too way before you hit the apex or you will 'spin out" (rotate skid) on your front foot.

Do not EVER look downhill while turning aggressively heelside...look uphill...before you turn...and certainly before you leave the fall line.

Who said snowboarding was not counter intuitive?

Carving is mostly counter intuitive... which is why a website forum about just turning can exist for years and years.

This was serous test of your ability to pay attention for more than a few seconds.

PPS >When doing that hand thing..BTW make sure your wrist is totally pointed downwards. If you compare the wrist up vs down you will see downwards you hit a biomechanical "Stop" sooner.

Edited February 6, 2013 by John Gilmour

[barryj]

Thanks for all the info guys - I know it's like shooting in the dark trying to fix something you haven't seen, but it has given me alot to think about before SES.

[barryj]

John -Wow! that's quite the Dissertation, and a serious test of your typing abilities!

Thanks for so much of your time. I sent ya a PM

When do ya arrive at SES? I need visual input!

[Boots]

Holy **** John! That was awsome, I can see what I'm supposed to be doing. Now let's see if I can get over the fear of chattering out on the east coast ice here this weekend.

Wish I could join everyone at the SES, I'm going to have to try and make it next year.

[Hans]

If you do this nice exercise of John, you are being helped by yourself rotating. It did this excercise just on the carpet and it realy works, of course ;)

What if you have a heelside problem and hang on to racetechnique, which isn't rotating but just moving up and down using your legs/knees? I ride flat on most of my boards. I got the tip from Jasey Jay to use lift in my rear binding. Will try next week...