bobdea Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 i would LOVE for red bull to sponsor us! there's a couple red bull sponsored riders, so, there's some interest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelle Posted February 24, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 In other words, bake your own pie rather than fighting for a slice of pie that has shriveled and grown stale.No disrespect meant here, but to just sit back and let things happen as they will have not gotten big companies like *Burton* and others where they are now. if you don't market to new people, your passion will never grow. To sit back and just let what happens, happen, is what we've been doing. Trying to be innovative, and with latent attitudes as this, we'll go nowhere and eventually die our own death - because it's what we created. this is the attempt to make an effort, to change that destiny. It's the ONLY way it's going to happen. Yes, we have a lot of advocates out there and as I said they are invaluable to the sport, but it's the industry that needs to stand up and do something to make it grow. THAT'S what I am addressing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seraph Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 More carving sessions. I mean lots more. TONS MORE. and more important are the weekend meets. They can be informal. But 3 carvers MUST show up. Minimum 3. If only 2 dont bother to show up. Ride together. Youll break the conformity barrier immediately. If it can be regularly held all the better. Next is take advantage of the bystander effect. Again it can be totally informal or formal. A small booth or tent or even god damn flag with some music with one but better 2 people standing in the middle going on about alpine boards some boards as example it doesnt matter what, but there must be 3 "paid" actors as the audience listening in. It will immediately attract attention. Michelle, I think there are some good points here as well as some of the other posts regarding demos and visibility. Bomber, Donek and All Board Sports are right in the heart of one of the most traveled to location for snowsports and yet how often do you guys set up a demo tent at the various ski areas on the weekend and offer the opportunity to try out the sport? What if you picked a different area every Saturday, set up a demo tent, offer the opportunity to demo the gear, and recruit some local carvers to come out and take a few runs with each of the interested parties (maybe create a demo team, throw some gear their way in return for the assistance, jackets with a highly visible logo, etc.), and have the demo team go over some basics of starting to carve (i.e., the norm, etc.). In the demo tent have a TV showing carving videos. Sounds ike a lot of work and effort to do every Saturday during the snowboarding season? Uh yeah, probably is, but you also have a captive audience. Probably more cost effective than a magazine ad too. Every weekend I ride, and every weekend I get at least one person that asks me if the local resort rents alpine gear....that is one potential convert, so I tell them no, but that their is various local options, but if its not readily available for them to try, they probably are not going to make the effort to seek you out. If you want to grow this sport, you need to increase your visibility, and create opportunities for people to try the sport. Your physically positioned to market to the untapped part of the market. Just curious during the most recent SES, when the demo sign was up, how many people per day, did you have stop by and ask questions and how many actually demo the gear. Did anyone offer to go take a run with those individuals? Do you think that if the sign said free demo and instruction that you would have more individuals stop by? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scrapster Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 Snowboarding for adults. (And the occasional kid who's cool beyond his or her years.) We know the reason most people are getting out of snowboarding. They get older. At some point the tricks seem needlessly dangerous and shamelessly ostentatious. The clothing and culture seem downright silly (or, at least that's how they are portrayed in the broader culture.) I think we're probably going to be most healthy as a niche sport, but the older demographic is who I would go after if we were to expand. A few of the more established makers could try for slick, well-placed magazine advertising. However, I think PR would be more fruitful in the log-run. Keep working on getting press. Recruit a celebrity or two to the dark side (all the better for getting press). Maybe wage a slightly edgy campaign (guerrilla anyone?). Pick a target that would be popular and acceptable to poke fun of. Burton? The baggy-pants culture? You want to have the 25+ crowd of riders and skiers nodding their heads in agreement (as well as admiring your turns.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelle Posted February 24, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 If you want to grow this sport, you need to increase your visibility, and create opportunities for people to try the sport. Your physically positioned to market to the untapped part of the market. Agreed. This is the reason for this thread, to see what you guys think would be the best way to utilize our $$ to grow the sport. Ads? Visibility? Demo Tour? I think "it's a lot of work" is beyond us, as we are pretty dedicated to the sport. We want to survive just as much as you guys want us to not go away :) We have definitely thought about doing this, but it always has to go through the mountains and they have to "approve" it. Some mountains don't care, like probably Loveland, but some mountains do like Copper. However, point taken and it's definitely worth looking at scheduling for next season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mxjas38 Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 What about the "netflix" of carving boards? This would make gear more available. You could charge some type of rental fee that could be discounted off the price of purchasing a new setup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelle Posted February 24, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 What about the "netflix" of carving boards? This would make gear more available. You could charge some type of rental fee that could be discounted off the price of purchasing a new setup. Do you mean shipping a board, boot, and bindings to someone to demo?Great idea, except (1) our insurance doesn't allow it (2) it would be expensive. To ship a board with bindings is a minumum $30 (usually more), plus the boots would be at least $15. That's $45 just for shipping, and a rental fee on top of it. :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seraph Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 Agreed. This is the reason for this thread, to see what you guys think would be the best way to utilize our $$ to grow the sport. Ads? Visibility? Demo Tour? I think "it's a lot of work" is beyond us, as we are pretty dedicated to the sport. We want to survive just as much as you guys want us to not go away :)We have definitely thought about doing this, but it always has to go through the mountains and they have to "approve" it. Some mountains don't care, like probably Loveland, but some mountains do like Copper. However, point taken and it's definitely worth looking at scheduling for next season. I would get started with the approvals now if you can. Show them some footage from SES, explain to them how this value added service makes their resort create more value for their customers without extra work on their part (besides offering you space, maybe grooming a nearby run for accessibility). One other thought, if you think the demo tent idea is good, has Bomber and Donek ever considered building a low cost demo board that would be able to handle the basics and would appeal to a large audience, 160 - 166cm (not much larger than a freeride board), all-mountain capable. Make it stick out with very large Donek and Bomber logos on it, use standard bails (maybe the TD2 version) so the individuals can use their ski boots if they want. Basically a model T version of the carving snowboard that could be used in the demo tent. Have a dozen of them on-hand and ready for quick setup. Don't get into having to select a board that is generally available for the knowledgable carvers, keep it simple. At the end of the day, if the newcomer loves the experience, then you pitch them on the higher end gear, or you make available the possibility of purchasing the demo model priced at around cost. It gets them on the gear inexpensively, gets them into the sport, leaves room for them to move up later and buy higher level gear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xy9ine Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 We want to survive just as much as you guys want us to not go away :) this is a bit scary - the future of the sport lies on the shoulders of a very few people. i'm sure it's not fabulously lucrative, and it wouldn't take much for one or more of our critical manufacturers to disappear - whether for financial or personal reasons. random: i'm a little disappointed prior hasn't put more effort into supporting the scene locally (how was their presence @ ses?). i know you can drop by the factory & grab a board for demo, but would be cool if they did the occasional vancouver appearance, onslope demo @ whistler, or organized a wes for we westcoasties. perhaps bringing in some boots so you could try & buy a complete setup (yes, i recall the days when you could try on hardboots in a physical shop). alas, i'm sure the alpine sales are a fairly small percentage of their total production, and perhaps not worth the effort to flog. given we're home to one of only 3 alpine builders in n/a, have heaps of great riding, and the olympic race legacy (starting w/ rebagliati) i'm surprised the scene is as small as it is here. i figured whistler would be a hotbed of hardboot hardcores. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seraph Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 I think "it's a lot of work" is beyond us, as we are pretty dedicated to the sport. We want to survive just as much as you guys want us to not go away :) BTW, I didn't mean to imply that you guys don't work hard. It is very obvious how dedicated you guys are. I think the level of caring, customer service and dedication is a big plus for the industry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelle Posted February 24, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 BTW, I didn't mean to imply that you guys don't work hard. It is very obvious how dedicated you guys are. I think the level of caring, customer service and dedication is a big plus for the industry.Sorry, didn't mean for it to sound that way either. I just meant that we are up to the job! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b0ardski Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 Lots of good points here. I think visibility and accessibility are the most important. Being able to bring demos to regional events like NICE is exactly what is needed to increase public awareness. A demo van making the rounds throughout the season would make a huge impact, however I do realize that's an expensive endeavor. Jackets & signs with big logos is a good call and recruiting BOLers to give pointers/lessons should be easy. Great discussion Michele. I've seen a growth in awareness and participation over the last few years locally and getting Sean & Fin to come to Idaho during an event like Outrageous Air will be great exposure. Lot's of boarders & skiers including pros will see us demoing Doneks & Boiler plates:biggthump PS Boots are a huge issue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Gendzwill Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 I still think affordable gear is the grail. I have a good friend who builds some of the best bass guitars on the planet. Problem is, not many people can afford them and the ones that can are on a waiting list because it's a very small shop and he can only produce so many world-class guitars a year. He also has trouble keeping staff that are as devoted to quality as he is. Sound familiar? Eventually, he outsourced a new lower end guitar. He had never offered a model that cheap before. Now you can buy one of his basses with all the distinctive features for much cheaper. It's not as good and there aren't custom options, but it's there. We're still not talking huge volumes here but it's considerably higher. Anyways, this is my long-winded way of saying that maybe it's time that you considered an outsourced beginner's board/binding set that would accept ski boots. It's a big risk though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Ace* Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 Does anyone remember the first couple Winter X Games? It started out as a very wide range of winter sports. I remember such sports as ice climbing, shovel racing(both modified and regular), some sort of downhill on a bike...sports you would never ever think about! The same can be said for Summer X Games. Do they even have the rock climbing event, or flatland BMX anymore? Left by the wayside to make room for such events as rally car racing and skateboard big air. Which, lets be honest, is more of a show and can easily fill an arena vs those other sports. The X Games has become more show than competition. Fancy lighting, pyrotechnics, and HUGE jumps draw the crowds in these days. Yah the pros want to win, but I have a feeling like most of the audience is there for the show and not to see a competition. Maybe we should start wearing sparklers on our helmets and build some huge kickers in the middle of a PGS course? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corey Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 Snowboarding for adults. (And the occasional kid who's cool beyond his or her years.)We know the reason most people are getting out of snowboarding. They get older. At some point the tricks seem needlessly dangerous and shamelessly ostentatious. You nailed my reason for switching to a 'T'. I was down to 1 or 2 days of snowboarding a year, then I discovered alpine riding via some random google search or video or something. My eyebrows raised, I bought some crappy $200 eBay setup, and fell in love again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newcarver Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 Seems like snowboarding in general is dying down some. I know in the last 7 season here there seem to have gone down from about even to more snowboarders to less that a 50/50 division of skiers to snowboarders. There are tons more skiers in the kids ski club than snowboarding. They used to have an alpine snowboard training program. No more. Just a big alpine ski program. All the snowboarders are on the freestyle team. The coach still carves though. We have 3 new hardbooters this season. 2 of them are skiers. 1 is a snowboarder in his early 40's. Skiers also seem to have a much better transition to carving. I think they are used to the forward stance and are more comfortable tipping a board over on edge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
valsam Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 +1000 for affordable gear! Most of my friends who got into softboot snowboarding (to a couple of them i lent my alpine gear to try out and besides that they found it harder than softboots they found the prices for hardboot gear insanely high) the last 10 years bought new gear (board-bindings-boots)last season models at a fraction of what alpine gear would cost them,1 friend last year spent 400$ and got pretty good freestyle stuff, a salomon special board with some technology in it such as Ghost Light core and Carbon and rubber,not the top models but somewhere in the middle towards the top model solomon boots and bindings! Could someone buy a brand new medium to top range last year alpine set for that kind of money? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crote123 Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 I have a question regarding demos (never been to one). Are there boards available that are set up with stiff softboot bindings such that any softbooter can just walk up and try out without needing hardboots? (it's not the optimal setup but all you want is to introduce them to the sport as easily as possible) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philw Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 Snowboarding for adults.(And the occasional kid who's cool beyond his or her years.) ... The baggy-pants culture? You want to have the 25+ crowd of riders and skiers nodding their heads in agreement (as well as admiring your turns.) I agree with all of that. Snowboards, well "snowboards" as they exist for most people, are pretty lousy outside the parks they're designed for. Skateboarding may be cool for the participants, but Dog-Town aside, skaters are just kids to most people. It's not something grown ups aspire to. Yeah, there are old snowboarders, some of whom ride the park (pipe is dead in most places), but it's not driving anything. At a resort, most people want to ride the mountain. Most modern snowboards are suited best to the park - they're not good on piste. Most snowboarders are just blown away by most skiers on piste. The snowboard industry tries to make that crapness cool, tries to invent things which avoid the main issue. Sliding on artificial metal rails? I find it really hard to even take pictures of that which don't look stupid. Popular snowboarding has a fundamental weakness just waiting to be exploited: at a resort, skiing is just more fun. Of course I don't know how to turn that around, and our weakness is... you need to know how to ride to be able to do it. So I don't know how you get from here to there, any more than I knew how to get people to switch from silly rear-entry boots to sensible clip boots. But shift they did, in time. I think you probably need a generation shift... a new generation needs to re-discover snowboarding, to realize that you don't have to be a skater, to feel that you don't have to be burnt off by skiers. At the moment most snowboarders see us (alpine riders) as a threat more than anything else: we show them up. I'm old but I can carve circles around most snowboarders on or off piste. That's just wrong. The kids understand that, but they're not picking up alpine boards to come and kick our arses. Games: my mates at CoC have an iPhone/ Andriod game, I can point you at the developers, but I'm not sure that's going to help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueB Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 ...as well as people like Boris "Blue B" who stand out and plant the alpine flag proudly in the local Vancouver scene. Thanks George! I'm blessed to be accompanied by a great group of alpine riders and friends. I, kind of, know what I should do to grow the sport localy. However, I'd be probably kicked off every single mountain that has an organised snow school... You've got the picture... random: i'm a little disappointed prior hasn't put more effort into supporting the scene locally (how was their presence @ ses?). i know you can drop by the factory & grab a board for demo, but would be cool if they did the occasional vancouver appearance, onslope demo @ whistler, or organized a wes for we westcoasties. perhaps bringing in some boots so you could try & buy a complete setup (yes, i recall the days when you could try on hardboots in a physical shop). alas, i'm sure the alpine sales are a fairly small percentage of their total production, and perhaps not worth the effort to flog. You've answered own question, with that last sentence... We've run WES from 2005/06 season, on, as a pretty informal one day gathering. 1st one was the most sucessfull in numbers. Prior organised few locals to show up on plates, Vancouver crew invaded in good numbers and few US guys showed up too. However, there were no demos, as Chris just wanted to ride with us. In the following seasons, we had demos only if we timed the event to coincide with a Prior's regular demo tent day. A bit of ribbing: I'm sure you have been notified of at least last 2 WES. Did you show up? ;) We'll do few more session at Whistler this spring, more then likely on Sundays. Just a heads-up. Random thoughts on the rest, without quoting people: STARTER KIT Yes, ski boots are the key factor, IMO. Pletny of bindings already work ok with them. Cheapest and easiest one: F2 Carve RS. I'd like to see a dampening elastomer with a solid shim for center disk, TD2 suspension style. They would need to come with extra lifting/canting shims too. Board should be along the F2 ElDiablo lines, or smallish Prior 4WD. ATV is a bit too wide. Outsourced to China? Hell, why not? It does not need to ba a WC capable board. Give them precise specs and prototypes and they will do an ok product. But that's not exactelly what the custom builders want to see, is it? EVENTS All has been said already. We need more and on smaller scale too. RACING Clubs have pretty much given up on alpine snowboarding around here. Don't quite know why. It would take some very motivated people and backing from the local government (which could be available here) to start dedicated clubs, or at least branch within existing ones. Grassroot promotion is required - demo/introduction days at schools. MEDIA Snowboarding needs a new type of magazine. Something like "The Real Snowboarder" or "The Spirit of the Ride". It would target the adult audience and families, with accent on Freeride (mostly inbounds), riding techniques serial, best resorts (especially for families), safety, tips for parents teaching or just riding with kids, gear setup and tuenup tips, boardercross AND alpine (including the racing). It also should be inclusive of skiing, maybe with an illustrated serial of techniques aplicable in both disciplines and some ski gear reviews. Last but not least, it should have a fair dose of mockery of the jibbing culture. Big contradicton and media fuss would work to the benefit of it's promotion. It should have an internet counterpart too, probably combined with a forum. When I find a mezzena to sponsor all of my crazy and not so crazy projects, I'll definitely do this too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 Seems like the best way to promote anything at the moment is on Facebook. If the bomber FB page linked to great videos once a week, and BOLers "liked" those videos, then the potential audience, as more and more people like them is huge. Good idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 Demo days with free lessons is how those g.d. Teleboarders got their business off the ground. For a while people in liftline were asking me if I was on a Teleboard. Learn-to-Carve Camps... I know I could put one of these together tomorrow with about 5-10 students. But I don't because of work, family, blah blah blah. It would be a 5 day midweek thing. Lift ticket, rentals, instruction, and lunch included for a flat fee. Add accommodations for another packaged price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueB Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 Learn-to-Carve Camps... I know I could put one of these together tomorrow with about 5-10 students. But I don't because of work, family, blah blah blah. It would be a 5 day midweek thing. Lift ticket, rentals, instruction, and lunch included for a flat fee. How would you avoid getting banned from the hill, for stealing the business from their school? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kieran Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 How would you avoid getting banned from the hill, for stealing the business from their school?surely it's only stealing business if the hill offers a comparative hardboot lesson program? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 How would you avoid getting banned from the hill, for stealing the business from their school? Of course you would probably want/have to do this through the resort and become an employee. I could do that here at Sugarloaf, as I know people and used to instruct here, or Beckman could if he wanted to. Although I can imagine a way to do it without going through the resort, only if the resort does not have any hardboot instruction already. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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