Hardboots in powder? Never again...

[Bullwings]

So, I had an epic pow day (or night I should say) just now on an O'sin 3800 in softboots on Catek FR2s. All I can say for everyone that swears by hardboots in pow, well, it's like trying to force the square block through the round hole... Or running a Ferrari on a rally course... Or using a downhill mt. bike for a triathalon... Why? Sure, it can be done, but it's not ideal.

I can understand if you have only one board, and one setup, but if you have numerous boards, I can no longer understand HBs in powder.

So my experience in powder as far as setups since riding hardboots has been this (in no particular order):

Donek FCI 171 in HBs = uhhh I'm stupid?!?!

ATV 161 in HBs = broken leg

ATV 161 on FR2s = better but still lots of leg burn

Tanker 192 in HBs = doable and somewhat enjoyable

Coiler 164 VSR (23cm waist) in HBs = survivable, but not fun

Tanker 192 on Burton Cartels w/riser plates = More fun than all of the above, but too narrow for size 12US softboots

O'sin 3800 on Catek FR2s = better than any of the above, by far. Handles the chop and trees better than the Tanker 192 and no boot out either

Plates have their place, but powder is definitely not it. As far as lack of response - it's powder, it's not gonna be instantaneous anyway... One of the things I always did with my softy setup was ratchet down the straps so tight that they would hurt my feet about half way to 3/4ths of the wait down the run. Well, tonight, I decided to try to back off on that after a few runs and left a tiny bit more play in the bindings and boot interface. The result = awesomeness. I didn't notice any less response vs. super tight ratchet down (i'm sure I would have on hardpack groom, but then I'd be on hardboots if that was the case), and my feet stop hurting. Powder just doesn't need the precision and power that you get from an HB interface; it prefers the slop and give of a softy setup. Your legs and shins will prefer it too.

It's been said so many times before, but use the right tool for the job (especially if it's an economically viable option).

In short:

If you have the money, and you're riding powder, get a powder board (used works, the 3800 was bought used - like 3 times... hehe, thanks Andrea). Don't force your carving board or all-mountain board into powder if it gets deeper than 6". Get some softboots, and even a cheapo set of $150 bindings works (Cateks are admittedly, too stiff for powder) - get regular straps, none of that toe cap strap stuff (it's junk IMO).

I'm sure many of you will disagree with me and say you prefer HBs in pow. That's fine, this is just my opinion after all. I used to think HBs were the end all setup for me (since I no longer ride park) - nope. I guess I could try my HBs on the 3800, but so far, in every situation on the same board, softboots in powder has always been better than HBs for me.

In the end, it's 85-90% of my time on hardboots, and 10-15% of the time on softies for those special pow occasions.

[omskates]

I havn't tried yet, only 2nd year in hardboots for me. I remember some old school videos with Jean Nerva and Peter Bauer on powder in hard boots, at the time thinking, "Wow they're shredding pow on race boards!". You've got me worried, LOL, I was hoping my old Oxygen Krypton boots were soft enough on a 21cm waist would be OK.

[softbootsurfer]

Great you have learned what "You" like...

[Snowman]

Yeah, this set up is just horrible in powder, tight trees even worse, I would not recommend it to anyone! It will just drag you down and sink like a stone. Try something other than Cateks and that might just be your first step in the right direction.

Think Snow!

[softbootsurfer]

Yeah, this set up is just horrible in powder, I would not recommend it to anyone! It will just drag you down and sink like a stone. Try something other than Cateks and that might just be your first step in the right direction.

Think Snow!

Da Fish knows...

[Galen]

Well, I ran soft boots in powder for almost 10 years. Current choice is: SG Cult 1.5 cm back, Burton Race, 225's with arch strap 1 notch looser, ankle and calf straps 2 notches looser, BTS yellows, angles around 45/20(Surf's Up!). To each his own. Most importent part is find what *you* prefer for powder cuz, lets face it, it's the BEST!:D:D:D

[Emdee406]

I don't get much chance to ride plates these days (busy teaching on snow, about 130 days a season- 26 years) and managed a couple of hours yesterday and have a chance today. I just woke to 15" of fresh...back to softboots for me.

I can see the board posted below would be fun, but with the terrain here which includes VERY tight trees, hard boots don't give me the flexibility, fluidity or ease of making quick direction changes. I ride either a Rome Notch or Never Summer Raptor, both adequate carvers on piste between tree sessions.

Just what works for me...

[newcarver]

I've had some great days in powder. One time on my Cult in 23" at Snowmass was very memerable. Softer flexing bindings (SnowPro Race) with AF700's. You can really charge through any chopped up snow with ease. I still like softboots for untracked though. More of a surfy feel. Durpaz and Dynastar 3800 for those days. But, on resort pow that gets tracked quickly I'll take my SG Cult with soft plate and hardboots anyday

[Jonny]

I dunno - with a moderate stance and a softish, widish board you can have fun in the trees and steeps and still get the thing up on a rail enough to not get bounced around by the chop in the runout. A wide softboot setup can be brutal in cut-up snow once it gets at all heavy.

Some of my best powder days ever, on skis or board, were on a Burton Alp set up around 51-48 with a lot of lift under the front foot.

I'll take my 180 Racecarve out in moderately deep fresh - up to a foot or so, but it's basically like waterskiing - low deflection high speed surfing, and if the nose sinks you're getting a faceful...

[Neil Gendzwill]

hard boots don't give me the flexibility, fluidity or ease of making quick direction changes.

I think it depends on which hardboots and what stance. Steep stance, stiff boots you're hooped I think. My old 224s are probably softer than some modern soft boots, and I run them at around 40 degrees on the wider boards. No trouble with quick direction changes.

[b0ardski]

Our experiences are quite different.

I had an epic pow day Fri. 3rd day in a row of cold 6"overnights made everything soft & sweet. Started out on the 185gs because I thought the cord would be firmer than it was.

Yep, not to much fun but I did make my 1st ever linked turns on steep filled in bumps with a gs race board. The rest of the run was cord so soft it was unpredictable whether the trench would sink to 6" deep with boot drag or 1' deep with shindrag.

So I rode back to the rack stepped out, switched the 185gs for the 173 powder board, stepped in and proceeded to butter and spin through soft steep bumps, and hunt untracked bliss through tight trees the rest of the day. Even dropped a few 20 foot rocks with no headers on landing.

The thought of getting more enjoyment from a softer boot never entered my mind even when I had to stop and bushwhack my way through uber tight trees.

This was all done on old 3 buckle Raichle with a pretty soft tongue and stiff skiboot liner(best fit I've ever had in 27yrs of ski bumming including moldables) in all metal step-ins. ymmv

Caveat;

I was an expert skier before taking up snowboard full time 20yrs ago, so hard shells at alpine angles always felt natural, comfortable and familiar to me.

If your trying to surf pow on the same stiff 4 or 5 buckle snowboard boot used to race a gs board it's no wonder you broke a leg.

I wrapped my leg(blown knee) around a tree trying to surf 18"pow in too stiff a boot(sx91e Salomons).

Summation;

For me, soft flexing 3buckle boots with a full range of motion and convenient unbreakable bindings are the right tool for the job:biggthump

[queequeg]

It's been awhile since I've riddn softboots, and although I have no doubt that they are the tool for surfing pow I've gotten very good results riding pow in my RC-10's at very low angles in very soft Proflex bindings (f2). I mostly do this because I don't want to have to pack two pair of boots and a pair of softboot bindings (they take up so much space!!).

I think (guessing here) that the RC-10's probably works a lot better than Deeluxe/Head boots with a BTS because I can unlock the boot lean mechanism—freeing up a lot of motion. Obviously riders using the original 5-position lean lock mechanism can still unlock so that comparison would not apply. I also tend to leave the cuff buckles (somewhat) loose in pow. This makes everything loose enough that I can surf with the base of the board since I have plenty of ankle movement.

I'm sure it's not *quite* as optimal as actual softboots but it works pretty well. My pow board is an old Rossi Judge 168. Very wide, slight notch in the tail, tons of setback and a big huge (long) nose. Pretty short so it's quite nimble in the trees and bumps. The setback lets me ride pretty centered and it makes it easy to make lots of quick turns on the steep stuff since I don't have to pop up too high to get the tail around. Board is a *KILLER* in the bumps too.

I'm sure softboots would be a little better, but this actually works really well for me in the pow. I'm happy enough with this pow setup that I am not tempted to try anything else.

[Erik J]

You're on a hardboot website knocking hardboots.

All I can say for everyone that swears by hardboots in pow, well, it's like trying to force the square block through the round hole... Or running a Ferrari on a rally course... Or using a downhill mt. bike for a triathalon... Why? Sure, it can be done, but it's not ideal.

Find a triathalon forum and tell them to stop using downhill mtn bikes. And find a square block forum and tell them to stopping hammering their blocks into round holes while you're at it.

Just sayin

[Jack M]

I agree softies are better in powder, but hb's can be very fun if you know what you're doing. I love my 21cm wide Stubby 171 in powder and trees.

[digger jr]

I ate Fish for breakfast this morning ;).

[Guest]

So you have ridden mostly non-powder specific boards using hardboots, and think it is the hardboots that aren't fun in the pow?

How about user error on poor equipment?

[carvedog]

Not sure where to start on this.

Glad you got it all figured out for you. Seems like you have kind of a hate-tolerate relationship with your boots. That either tells me you don't have the right boot, fit or binding to go with them - or all of the above.

I have two pairs each of functioning soft boots and hard boots.

I teach in step in softies. When I really want to ride hard, I wear hard boots. They have a better fit, can ride longer and they seem to be warmer too. Maybe because I don't have to crank them down so tight because they fit my foot better. And not I don't run them as tight as when I carve. They work great.

When I was racing a lot, for practice I would take my FP173 (18 cm waist) everywhere on the mountain. The steepest iciest run I could find, bumps, chopped chowder and yes even tight trees. Was it as easy as carving the groom? No, but it sure made even a rutted up race course seem pretty manageable. I like narrower boards and steeper angles better in most kinds of bumps.

I guess it's all what you want to do. If you want to slop around in softies and slarve some turns in the trees - softies will work fine. Ride the whole board instead of the binders, it works great for a couple kinds of turns.

To me settling for soft boots in almost any situation is like settling for station wagon handling cuz it's easier to drive to the grocery store, when I really want Ferrari performance. And speed. I think I tend to ride quite a bit faster in pow and chopped pow than some. If you are going slow the station wagon handling is just fine.

But that's just me. YM has Varied.

[philw]

You report changing multiple things at once. If you make just one change at once, then you can work out cause and effect.

Powder boards are really good in powder(!) You'll get most fun riding a modern powder board. Unless you're really good you'll flounder on anything else in bottomless.

Park boots and bindings will work in powder, as do Sorrels. On the other hand hard boots on a powder board is a marriage made in heaven. Yeah, I drive my sports car (not a Ferrari, those are just crap) all the time, even to the supermarket, where I park well away from all the other cars. Most people settle for less and park where they like.

I'm glad you found what works for you, although I think you're missing a trick by not at least trying hard boots on a proper powder board.

[Bullwings]

Stir the pot a little? Yeah, I figured, responses would be what they are.

Still, after all my years here (not that many - only 5 seasons), and all the reading and videos i've watched (Hard attack - and Joerg from Pure boarding tearing up moguls), I've really tried making HBs work for me on powder. At the end of the day, on the same board, back to back, I still prefer softboots over hardboots when it comes powder. After watching "hard attack" over and over, I tried really hard to do the hardboot powder thing (even after I broke my leg). I just haven't tried a softer boot interface (i'm on track 325Ts).

Also, if a Tanker 192 doesn't qualify as a worthy powder board, i don't know what does... APO, 4807, Undertaker 195, Winterstick? It's not worth shelling out for conditions that i only see around 3-5 days a year (if i'm lucky). And, an ATV in 8"-12" on hardboots, why not? Prior markets it as "a popular choice for advanced alpine riders looking for a high-performance powder board." http://www.priorsnowboards.com/boards_atv.php#profile

As far as riding fast, it seems that that's all I could do when I was in HBs in powder, riding slow just sucked. In SBs I can ride, fast, slow, chop, bumps, and tight trees. It's probably rider error (or lack of skill), but instead of forcing (which is what it felt like to me) myself to ride HBs in powder, it just turns out it's more enjoyable to be in softies when it's soft out (that includes 65F weather with slush).

Btw, I know a certain hardboot carver that ditches snowboards altogether and hops on skis when it's powder out there :lol::lol:

Anyway, if the conditions present itself again, I'll try out some Burton raceplates on the 3800 with my Track 325s (I already have the gear). I figure it'll be the final comparison until I pick up another board.

[dmc]

It's been awhile since I've riddn softboots, and although I have no doubt that they are the tool for surfing pow I've gotten very good results riding pow in my RC-10's at very low angles in very soft Proflex bindings (f2).

I'm 140-145 lbs and I find the RC-10 (size 24.5) to be crazy stiff even with loose cuff buckles and the spring in walk mode. Maybe it's just me and my (lack of) weight? I've ordered the red 100 flex tongues to hopefully soften things up a little more.

[Emdee406]

I think it depends on which hardboots and what stance. Steep stance, stiff boots you're hooped I think. My old 224s are probably softer than some modern soft boots, and I run them at around 40 degrees on the wider boards. No trouble with quick direction changes.

Horses for courses, I have high end students and train Instructors so combined with going fast through VERY tight trees, I feel softs give ME more options.

[Loc]

I've done it before and don't like it at all, even on a Prior ATV 171. I borrowed my friend's Sierra Reverse crew and put on my Burton Drivers for a pow day earlier this season in Mammoth and had a blast in pow. I've since picked up an Arbor A-Frame to use on soft days. Mammoth just got 8ft of freshies and more to come this week which makes me pretty excited to try this setup. People should just use whatever works for them.

[Emdee406]

Not sure where to start on this.

That either tells me you don't have the right boot, fit or binding to go with them - or all of the above.

I have two pairs each of functioning soft boots and hard boots.

I teach in step in softies. When I really want to ride hard, I wear hard boots. They have a better fit, can ride longer and they seem to be warmer too. Maybe because I don't have to crank them down so tight because they fit my foot better. And not I don't run them as tight as when I carve. They work great.

When I was racing a lot, for practice I would take my FP173 (18 cm waist) everywhere on the mountain. The steepest iciest run I could find, bumps, chopped chowder and yes even tight trees. Was it as easy as carving groom? No, but it sure made even a rutted up race course seem pretty manageable. I like narrower boards and steeper angles better in most kinds of bumps.

I guess it's all what you want to do. If you want to slop around in softies and slarve some turns in the trees - softies will work fine. Ride the whole board instead of the binders, it works great for a couple kinds of turns.

To me settling for soft boots in almost any situation is like settling for station wagon handling cuz it's easier to drive to the grocery store, when I really want Ferrari performance. And speed. I think I tend to ride quite a bit faster in pow and chopped pow than some. If you are going slow the station wagon handling is just fine.

But that's just me. YM has Varied.

I think perhaps it is you that has a poorly fitting boot! The fact you have to crank down your soft boot may be a clue? Also given that no one has made a soft step-in system for many years (with good reason) maybe an upgrade to some modern/ contemporary equipment may be needed... Particularly for effective demos while teaching. I say this as an Examiner in two countries.

I try to ride the most functional equipment for what I am doing, hard boots for racing, high speed carving, soft boots for teaching/powder/racing SBX...and with a heat moulded inner and custom footbed, mine don't slop around and actually allow me to carve....and not at station wagon speeds, clocked on my SBX set up at 61.5mph.

[big mario]

You say potatoe

Not riding much Albert?

different strokes for different folks

Is it that time of the year where we have this silly discussion again....

What does your sig say?

till next time

mario

[Steve Prokopiw]

what the criteria would be for hardboots to be acceptable in powder.By your statements I should probably not be able to pass you or go faster or negotiate trees or jump off cliffs or hike in my hardboots.But I do.It is pretty rare for me to go slower or have a hard time in comparison to soft booters when I ride powder.I'm with Carvedog on this one.And as for ill fitting soft boots being the cause of a preference for hard boots;I find that my dialed-in hardboots are more comfortable, period.No problems hiking or keeping up,and since I'm usually in my Freezone ski boots(SB's with a din sole) I'm usually the one making steps for my soft friends on our favorite hike above the lift.

For me ,board performance is what counts.If somone can make their's perform with softies as well as someone else with hard;great! And for me,hardboots are better on any board any time.