What will you spend on a board?

[Bullwings]

Finally got to check a mark in this pole since Bruce gave me a finalized price. Those of your that paid for your recently delivered boards know what that means.

I might be addressing that 16% market that needs a board under $400 soon with some quiver cleaning (only one board). I should have everything that I need after this, my all-mountain carver (coiler), all-mountain powder board (tanker 192), and a rock board (atv 161), the end.

I can't wait for the quiver killer to get here. Hopefully the next board will be a Coda monoboard, I can't wait to get back to my skiing roots (with a little bit of a twist) of 12+ years ago.

[MUD]

I don't know if this has been mentioned, I have lost track with all the drama.

If it wasn't for the used board market, I would not have the boards I do. I couldn't afford a brand new board so I sold and added a couple hundred and bought better used. and then did it again and so on. Now I have what I have......

[lonbordin]

I don't know if this has been mentioned, I have lost track with all the drama.

If it wasn't for the used board market, I would not have the boards I do. I couldn't afford a brand new board so I sold and added a couple hundred and bought better used. and then did it again and so on. Now I have what I have......

Got anything you want to sell?!

[MUD]

Got anything you want to sell?!

I don't, but as more people get on their new boards that Bruce and Sean have made for them this year, you will see more up for sale.

[photodad2001]

I agree with Photodad on this issue. Some posts make it sound like you can't ride if you're not on the latest and greatest equipment. There's no denying that the new stuff is better but for a beginner or casual rider the benefits of the newer gear are greatly outweighed by the huge cost premium over older stuff.

Just wanted to thank you again for getting it. Maybe you could help some of the others around here out. Can't seem to see the forest through all those blasted trees.

[lonbordin]

I don't, but as more people get on their new boards that Bruce and Sean have made for them this year, you will see more up for sale.

Ah my attempt at humor had a wipeout... needed more beer.

[photodad2001]

Boards would have to be produced in large numbers in Asia to address that market, but the profit margins would be so low, the current market would make such an endeavor undesirable. There simply aren't enough carvers to support it either. That market is best left to the people wishing to purchase used boards.

So would you say that the cost of the boards mostly lies in the time used to construct the boards and not the materials? Or are the materials so expensive that to bring the price down you'd have to sell an incredible number there just isn't a market? Are there less expensive materials you could use to make a functional "bottom end" board?

[Zone]

Just wanted to thank you again for getting it. Maybe you could help some of the others around here out. Can't seem to see the forest through all those blasted trees.

We could see your points, I'm not sure you're seeing the other side.

It's about prioritizing what's giving you most pleasure in life depending on your available cash.

If you don't spend $100/month on cable TV (check), $50-100/month on a cell phone/iPhone (check), 1080p TV (check), fancy wheels/car (check), you could probably move that cash to a new board in less than a year.

Does Timex giving time? Does a Rolex give you time and beauty/pleasure ?

Can you watch 'Grey's Anatomy' on a cathode tube TV or are you deriving more pleasure from 1080p?

Having fun on Mistral Equipe, having more fun perhaps on a CarbonArt?

There are things I don't care about as long as functional.

There are other things that don't necessarily make me a better snowboarder but give a lot of pleasure riding or even looking at at home.

And for those, I thank the custom and semi-custom builders and am willing to pay the price.

[Donek]

So would you say that the cost of the boards mostly lies in the time used to construct the boards and not the materials? Or are the materials so expensive that to bring the price down you'd have to sell an incredible number there just isn't a market? Are there less expensive materials you could use to make a functional "bottom end" board?

We're already at the bottom end (for the scale) with our pilot boards. We use scraped cores that normally would be thrown in the garbage and base material that is clearanced from the manufacturer. When we wholesale those boards to other vendors, we are close a loss on every pilot that is sold. Throw one in the garbage due to a mistake and we are loosing money on them.

You can get boards made in China for $70. They are junk and actually represent a huge portion of what is sold in the US for $300 to $400 retail. You're looking at large quantity orders and that 16% of the alpine market doesn't even come close to a single order of one size from an Asian manufacturer. Manufacturing boards is largely man power and materials, but you also have to look at all the other costs associated with running a manufacturing business. At our scale, the overhead is equal to the labor and materials. By overhead, I mean shop rent (and I own the land and shop so it is really cheap), insurance, electricity, heat, equipment maintenance,... Most people simply do not understand the costs of running a legitimate business.

[b0ardski]

Part of the beauty of our sport is that the used market is very competitive in terms of selection and pricing.

As a general rule, I have always been very impressed with the quality and condition of all of the used boards that I bought from fellow BOL members. Maybe it's because as a general rule, we tend to be better with the preventative maintenance of our equipment. I also see that as a group, we tend to use PTC tunes on our decks more than average....

It's so great to see how many forum members have gone through 2-3 used and NOS boards, who are now ready to step up to the Holy Grail of a custom deck from the master craftmen of Prior, Coiler, and Donek.

This sums it up pretty well.

I've bought some new, but mostly NOS or demo discount boards for the last 20 yrs.

I only discovered this forum and it's classifieds:1luvu: a couple years ago and have used the knowledge & opinions here to refine what I know from experience into the specs for the perfect custom quiver killer:biggthump

I can"t afford it this year but it's on the horizon. Then I'll proudly say that I do support our little niche market and when the next custom comes along I'll pass on the stoke to someone else trying to figure out their own specs;)

[yyzcanuck]

When we wholesale those boards to other vendors, we are close a loss on every pilot that is sold. Throw one in the garbage due to a mistake and we are loosing money on them.

Most people simply do not understand the costs of running a legitimate business.

I was going to stay out of this thread because I had nothing nice to say...

But now that Sean has put the Pilot on the table, I just wanted to chime in with a thank you. Without the Pilot we would have nothing to offer first timers and younger, lighter riders.

With our Pilot Package we can offer a board (Pilot), bindings (IBEX) and boots (DeeLuxe 225T) for $999.

To me that's a deal and it's only possible because:

a) we're willing to accept a reduced margin on the Pilot due to Sean being willing to work for nearly free.

b) we're the DeeLuxe distributor so we can deep discount the Track 225T due to early season pre-payment of our order.

c) this entry level package is growing the sport by creating potential long term customers.

It's so great to see how many forum members have gone through 2-3 used and NOS boards, who are now ready to step up to the Holy Grail of a custom deck from the master craftmen of Prior, Coiler, and Donek.

This very process (buying multiple used and NOS boards) was the foundation of my company. I was buying and selling so many boards, boots and bindings I figured what the heck, there must be a viable business somewhere in this alpine snowboard market. I can tell you that Andrea & I receive numerous emails from people looking for used gear. I'm certain there is a great market for that type of gear but it's best left to the one on one classified section to work out the proper quality/price... not for a business such as ours.

[Ernie00]

I've bought 2 new metal coilers in the past 2 years and love them. So I'm in the 800-1000$.

I'm trying to see things from the other side of the fence. 999$ for a "entry" level package is a lot of money.

don't get me wrong, I do think this is a GREAT setup for the price, a lot more than entry level, but when I want to try a new sport droping 1K is a lot of money.

I'm in that situation now, I'd like to try to do some backcountry riding in VT and Adk this winter and was thinking about getting a splitboard setup. Not sure if I'm going to like it or have time to do it a lot. Same as Carving there aren''t many "cheap" setup available. So I'm stuck deciding if I want to try it .. for 1000$ + or not. Will probably not persu it because of the high cost and I'm sure the same happens to a lot of people who want to try carving.

[bobdea]

I've bought 2 new metal coilers in the past 2 years and love them. So I'm in the 800-1000$.

I'm trying to see things from the other side of the fence. 999$ for a "entry" level package is a lot of money.

don't get me wrong, I do think this is a GREAT setup for the price, a lot more than entry level, but when I want to try a new sport droping 1K is a lot of money.

I'm in that situation now, I'd like to try to do some backcountry riding in VT and Adk this winter and was thinking about getting a splitboard setup. Not sure if I'm going to like it or have time to do it a lot. Same as Carving there aren''t many "cheap" setup available. So I'm stuck deciding if I want to try it .. for 1000$ + or not. Will probably not persu it because of the high cost and I'm sure the same happens to a lot of people who want to try carving.

dude, just find some junker and cut 'er down the middle.

[Ernie00]

I've read that article and considering that route also.

[photodad2001]

We could see your points, I'm not sure you're seeing the other side.

It's about prioritizing what's giving you most pleasure in life depending on your available cash.

If you don't spend $100/month on cable TV (check), $50-100/month on a cell phone/iPhone (check), 1080p TV (check), fancy wheels/car (check), you could probably move that cash to a new board in less than a year.

Does Timex giving time? Does a Rolex give you time and beauty/pleasure ?

Can you watch 'Grey's Anatomy' on a cathode tube TV or are you deriving more pleasure from 1080p?

Having fun on Mistral Equipe, having more fun perhaps on a CarbonArt?

There are things I don't care about as long as functional.

There are other things that don't necessarily make me a better snowboarder but give a lot of pleasure riding or even looking at at home.

And for those, I thank the custom and semi-custom builders and am willing to pay the price.

don't have cable and what is a cell phone? Is that some sort of micro biological comunicating device? Just kidding, but no, don't have either of those, there is a culture that can't afford what you see on tv. Actually having fun on Mistral comp (80's model) and Bic Samba (also 80's model) That is if it was a windsurfing reference.

[photodad2001]

We're already at the bottom end (for the scale) with our pilot boards. We use scraped cores that normally would be thrown in the garbage and base material that is clearanced from the manufacturer. When we wholesale those boards to other vendors, we are close a loss on every pilot that is sold. Throw one in the garbage due to a mistake and we are loosing money on them.

You can get boards made in China for $70. They are junk and actually represent a huge portion of what is sold in the US for $300 to $400 retail. You're looking at large quantity orders and that 16% of the alpine market doesn't even come close to a single order of one size from an Asian manufacturer. Manufacturing boards is largely man power and materials, but you also have to look at all the other costs associated with running a manufacturing business. At our scale, the overhead is equal to the labor and materials. By overhead, I mean shop rent (and I own the land and shop so it is really cheap), insurance, electricity, heat, equipment maintenance,... Most people simply do not understand the costs of running a legitimate business.

Thanks for the legitamit responses, I'm picking up on what you are saying, however, seeing what the big guys do with lower grade bases and cores, I'm still wondering if there couldn't be a more economical way to produce your product. Sorry if I'm being a stick in the mud. Have you considered joining forces or sending work out? I've seen your vids on production and they are extremely informative. A friend of mine who owns a press is actually considering making long boards, not alpine, but big freeride boards. He used to make the Alien workshop decks back when they were a small company. Anyway, the sport is getting a new clientel (sp?) and we really can't afford the prices because we waisted our years away snowboarding and not pursuing financial gains. Not to mention I am buying for 2 now and I am forced to buy a complete set up for my little one each year as she continues to grow and has more need of another board/boot/binding than myself. There is a new wave coming and it's going to piss a lot of people off on here, but we are going to ride and we can't afford $800 plus lifts or passes.

[photodad2001]

We could see your points, I'm not sure you're seeing the other side.

It's about prioritizing what's giving you most pleasure in life depending on your available cash.

If you don't spend $100/month on cable TV (check), $50-100/month on a cell phone/iPhone (check), 1080p TV (check), fancy wheels/car (check), you could probably move that cash to a new board in less than a year.

Does Timex giving time? Does a Rolex give you time and beauty/pleasure ?

Can you watch 'Grey's Anatomy' on a cathode tube TV or are you deriving more pleasure from 1080p?

Having fun on Mistral Equipe, having more fun perhaps on a CarbonArt?

There are things I don't care about as long as functional.

There are other things that don't necessarily make me a better snowboarder but give a lot of pleasure riding or even looking at at home.

And for those, I thank the custom and semi-custom builders and am willing to pay the price.

Didn't mean to get harsh (if you took it that way) on my first response, but my stance on this issue is this. I'm here to talk about carving and there are several that push and mock those who don't ride the high end stuff. It's a fact. Those guys are a bunch of douche bags. I'm in it for the fun, for the thrill, and for the experience. And I have a lot of experience. Riding since 86 and spent more time than I probably should have. And being a poor boy I am proud of my roots and won't let some high brow snobs rain on my parade. I really think this sport could extend beyond those on this forum and it does. In real life I see carvers on the snow that don't have the hang ups people have on here. Guys riding old Burtons and Rossi's. I've been on my softboot set up and had much props from people who didn't know I also have alpine gear. (though not modern) In fact some of the carvers I run into on the snow don't even know about this site. I direct them here and I just hope they don't have the same experience I've had.

[GeoffV]

Photodad,

Congrads, you have officially pissed me off. It takes a lot to get me fired up on this forum and you have certainly accomplished that...

I've been trying to hold back but your last post is just over the top.

Thanks for the legitamit responses, I'm picking up on what you are saying, however, seeing what the big guys do with lower grade bases and cores, I'm still wondering if there couldn't be a more economical way to produce your product. Sorry if I'm being a stick in the mud. Have you considered joining forces or sending work out? I've seen your vids on production and they are extremely informative. A friend of mine who owns a press is actually considering making long boards, not alpine, but big freeride boards. He used to make the Alien workshop decks back when they were a small company. Anyway, the sport is getting a new clientel (sp?) and we really can't afford the prices because we waisted our years away snowboarding and not pursuing financial gains. Not to mention I am buying for 2 now and I am forced to buy a complete set up for my little one each year as she continues to grow and has more need of another board/boot/binding than myself. There is a new wave coming and it's going to piss a lot of people off on here, but we are going to ride and we can't afford $800 plus lifts or passes.

You are missing the point. You want a cheaper product and you are suggesting Sean lower his prices and make a below standard board and lower is profit margins. Do I have that correct?

Sean makes well below 1,000 boards a year and is not getting rich on making boards for our little community and yet you think he could make a crappy board with scrap wood, low grade base material, blah, blah and you think someone would actually buy that board?

Come on man wake up!

Sean is the only alpine board maker that makes a beginner board that I know of. He has already indicated that his profit margins are very small for the pilot. And yet you continue to push lowering the price, poor quality and craftsmanship will follow. I know Sean, Bruce or Chris will not want to produce a board that is below their standards.

If Sean or any other manufacture made a cheap product I guarantee you they'd lose money and very few folks would buy a sub-par board.

Stick to buying used product, if your happy with that that's fine, but don't expect a few little alpine board makers to lower their prices because you are to cheap to buy new equipment. You've indicated that you can't afford new so stick to the classifieds and buy our left overs.

If you compare the top of the line alpine boards to top of the line skiis we are still paying a lot less for our boards.

Have you thought about why none of the mass produced board makers make alpine boards any more. It's simple there is no money in it, and yet you think the price can be lowered.

[trailertrash]

i am going to go on a off road racing forum and whine that i can't afford to buy a trophy truck to race in the baja 1000. they should really make them more affordable so i can participate in that sport. maybe i will stamp my feet and call people names because i cant afford to race in the baja.

PD you have been whining since you joined this forum that you can't afford new gear. we get it. we hear you. enough! you have to pay to play, that is reality.

[Helmut Karvlow]

Cost is relative, if I want something I'll find a way to get it! ( new Prior B-2)

the one who buy's cheep is getting just that! and when it breaks, he will be the first to try and sue the company that gave him what he wanted.

EVERYTHING is exspensive now! I see guy's crying about $$$ but Buy lunch every day. right now in Cleveland work SUCK'S there are no jobs and all the contractors are pricing below cost to move money, my job is not fun any more. but Snowboarding is and alway's will be my stress relief, so I'll buy what I want when I want it.

my $.02

[kinpa]

Somehow I've found myself addicted to two very expensive sports: Snowboarding/Skiing and Horses. But, like so many have said, you do what you need to do!

The gear I got right now works for me. Sometimes I read some of the threads on here and wonder if some fancy new board would make a change in my riding. Probably not too much.... it's all a mindset. I started teaching years ago when I was in college. The thought of a free pass made it sound like a good deal and honestly, over the years I've enjoyed teaching more and more. What has once started as my free pass to get to partake in my enjoyment has now become my enjoyment. It's such a thrill to see someone you taught linking turns down the hill for the first time with a big smile on his or her face! And honestly, they really don't even know or care what snowboard is under my feet! My teaching board was another freebie.... my daughter won it in a raffle a few years ago when she was 5 years old. Finally she gave it to me, and in return I managed to get a snowboard for her that works for her! And the smile on her face and excitement when she made it up the rope tow the whole way on her snowboard by herself was well worth the money spent!

Anyhow, I guess it kinda sucks how this thread turned nasty, but you guys need to remember that everyone is just doing what they need to do to do something they love to do!

[b0ardski]

There are elitist snobs on both ends of the economic spectrum, it's very much like racism, "us vs them".

I have been known to brag about the fact that the board I'm rippin turns on that day cost under $100, but that doesn't mean I hate on the rich tourons that buy million $ chalets (giving me a job) or paying full price for a mere week of skiing (giving me a lift to the top).

We get It PD, I'm a lowlife, used buyin, po' boy fun whore myself, but being a craftsman I'm not about to crusade the "Quality Builders" to cut corners and use inferior materials to support cheapo's like me in what is admittedly a tiny market share.

Like Kathy so eloquently put it we do what we do to do what we love to do.

[Jack M]

I'd be most curious to know what it is that makes a board worth more than $1000 to those individuals.

Thanks for a great poll Jack.

Glad you found it useful, I had you all in mind when I put it up. I would guess that those paying more than $1000 either have to do so to keep up with those measuring their runs in hundredths of a second, or they simply want "the best board money can buy" (whatever that means to them) or they enjoy looking down at shimmering sexalium fibers on the chairlift, and knowing they are riding cutting edge materials. Maybe they've tried everything and truly feel a difference. Me, knowing the boner I can already get out of an $800 board, I look at my unridden Kessler and I see most of a mortgage payment. Maybe that view will change after I ride it.

I know a guy considering a bottle of this:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Tequila-Barrique-De-Ponciano-Porfidio-Limited-Edition_W0QQitemZ170417520936QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item27adad0128

And I agree with Geoff.

[Neil Gendzwill]

I know a guy considering a bottle of this:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Tequila-Barrique-De-Ponciano-Porfidio-Limited-Edition_W0QQitemZ170417520936QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item27adad0128

They had a bottle of this in the Calgary airport liquor store a couple of years back. That would be nearly a year's salary working minimum wage. But you need to get your priorities straight - fine liquor is a necessity of life.

[tufty]

We're already at the bottom end (for the scale) with our pilot boards. We use scraped cores that normally would be thrown in the garbage and base material that is clearanced from the manufacturer. When we wholesale those boards to other vendors, we are close a loss on every pilot that is sold. Throw one in the garbage due to a mistake and we are loosing money on them.

Even selling them "over the counter", you're massively under the cost of the rest of the market, Sean. 415 bucks is 280 euros, which is around the point at which I personally might start thinking about the possibility of putting enough money aside to be able to buy new. Indeed, even your $680 price is "more than competitive".

As an idea of costs over here, the cheapest new board I can get at my local "alpine stockist" (i.e. retail shop that admits alpine even exists) is an F2 Speedster, at 384 euros (566 bucks). This is the only board I can find new over here for less than the price of a new "Race" or "Freecarve" board from Sean; by the time we start talking about boards I'd actually like to ride (talking retail, not Donek, here), we're well into the 800 bucks range. That's retail price on "stock", mass-produced boards. Bollocks to that, I'll get the same thing used for 1/10 the price after it's clogged up the shelves of one of the local rental shops for a year or two. Which reminds me, there's a local shop here that allegedly has a large stock of almost unused gear they might be wanting to get rid of. Must remember to pop in and ask if they have any skwals lying about.

In many respects, photodad has it right - it's all about the amount of money you can actually afford to throw into something that's a hobby vs the amount of perceived value in that investment.

If you don't spend $100/month on cable TV (check), $50-100/month on a cell phone/iPhone (check), 1080p TV (check), fancy wheels/car (check), you could probably move that cash to a new board in less than a year.

This is totally missing the point. Sure, if you have the money available to pay for cable / cellphone / fancy car, then yeah, you can prioritise your expenditure to cover a new board. If, however, the money you would have spent on cable is spent on food, the money you would have spent on a cellphone going into your mortgage, and you're running a 20 year old car that you do all the maintenance on yourself to fill the rest of the mortgage hole, then there is no way in hell you're going to be able to find $1000 to drop on a new board. Need I mention that this is more or less the situation I find myself in? 1080p tv? I run a TV "scrounged" from the local tip in the dead of night.

What us cheapasses are complaining about is not the cost of new gear (the manufacturers are perfectly justified in charging what they like, and as Sean has indicated, they aren't exactly rolling in heaps of greenbacks laughing at us), nor the unavailability of super-cheap new gear (which would be 99% sure to be crap anyway if it were profitable to produce), but the elitist attitude of some on here who continually and constantly belittle those who don't have the latest and greatest board / boots / gloves / whatever.

At the point where an alpine snowboarding community becomes, like a lot of "snowboarding", a dick-waving contest over who has the "best" toys - well, ya'know? **** that noise, man.