pogokoenig Posted December 11, 2009 Report Share Posted December 11, 2009 So would you say that the cost of the boards mostly lies in the time used to construct the boards and not the materials? Or are the materials so expensive that to bring the price down you'd have to sell an incredible number there just isn't a market? Are there less expensive materials you could use to make a functional "bottom end" board? Who cares? Or is the cost allocation part of your purchase decision? If there is something I want to have / own / ride on, I check the price and see if it matches the benefit I expect. If it does so, I am going to buy. If not, i first negotiate and the buy. If it is still to expensive I don't buy. That's all the magic. Where is the need for asking about manufacturer's inside knowledge? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pogokoenig Posted December 11, 2009 Report Share Posted December 11, 2009 ...it's all about the amount of money you can actually afford to throw into something that's a hobby ... Exactly, that's the point. Noone holds a gun against our heads and forces us to buy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philw Posted December 11, 2009 Report Share Posted December 11, 2009 Who cares? Or is the cost allocation part of your purchase decision? I care. If you don't care, why do you care that I do? If you don't care, why are you in this thread? Whatever is driving the cost of things I buy is something I'm curious about. I find it hard to understand people who don't have that curiosity, but it's obviously a legitimate perspective. Those people I assume are in other threads. Quite why people would come here to bitch about people asking reasonable questions about things we're interested in... well, you can bitch about it of course, but I'm still curious. In fact the more people try to stop me finding something out, the more interesting that thing becomes. In an open system information generally improves quality and reduces price: secrecy is seldom used to the consumer's advantage. There's no obligation on anyone to expose commercially confidential data of course, but equally no one can stop us talking about this stuff. Well of course Fin could, and he is a manufacturer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carveaholic Posted December 12, 2009 Report Share Posted December 12, 2009 Add the phrase "new or used". leaving it out doesn't prevent anyone from voting, and the categories down to <=$200 imply used, yes? I'm new to this forum, though I've been carving for 3.5 years. I started out on my buddies Prior ATV with soft boots. I then fell in love with this sport. I was lucky enough to get a set of Raichle SB314 boots on closeout from bomber (they were no longer being produced). I found a set of Snowpro bindings on ebay for insanely cheep (looking to upgrade now, any sellers?). So for a year i rode my buddies Prior with this setup and loved it even more. I ended up damaging his board and that was the end of me riding it (repairs done). I was then left with me meager blue collar salary to try and find a board to ride. I searched and searched for a used board within my price range, but to no avail. I was making less than $20,000 at the time. Then just by happenstance (with ebay's help) (look the ebay guy still has some for sale http://cgi.ebay.com/Snowjam-Snowboarding-RIOT-RACING-Long-Snowboard-164cm_W0QQitemZ200359325715QQcmdZViewItemQQptZSnowboarding?hash=item2ea658b013I ) found a website for a company called Snowjam/Freesport. Much to my excitement They had an alpine board for sale. The ebay posting was for $200.00 or so, but I called the company directly and they offered to sell me this board for $89.00 plus S/H. I suspect most of you are now thinking "This board has to be crap." Yes that is true to some extent. I had to have the base ground straight from the factory (to get it flat), there was not one spec of wax on the base (which was extruded:nono:). They also only made it for one year (guess it didn't sell well). That being said, this was the perfect board for me at the time. It allowed me to continue advancing as a hardbooter. I still own this board and use it for early and late season. Last year I was perusing ebay and saw a Donek Blade for $400.00. I have very large feet (size 14), so the extra waist width was very welcome. This board is now my pride and joy. When I first got the Snowjam, very inexperienced as I was, I couldn't tell the difference between it and the Prior (nothing against Prior, i rode the same one last year, and it was light years ahead of the Snowjam.) The technology and ride of the Donek sends shivers down my spine. I guess in summery, I would say that I was lucky in the way I was introduced to our lovely sport. I had a friend gracious enough to lend me equipment, then got a steel on closed out boots. I have a firm appreciation for the technological improvements available with new equipment, but It would be nice to have a larger selection of inexpensive equipment available for newcomers. Just to be clear I'm not arguing to steer our sport in the direction of cheep mass produced crap. It would just be nirvana if a wider range was available. Thanks for listening to my $.02. I look forward to riding with some of you this season, also I'm trying to swing it to be at ECES. -matt- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donek Posted December 12, 2009 Report Share Posted December 12, 2009 Thanks for the legitamit responses, I'm picking up on what you are saying, however, seeing what the big guys do with lower grade bases and cores, I'm still wondering if there couldn't be a more economical way to produce your product. Sorry if I'm being a stick in the mud. Have you considered joining forces or sending work out? I've seen your vids on production and they are extremely informative. A friend of mine who owns a press is actually considering making long boards, not alpine, but big freeride boards. He used to make the Alien workshop decks back when they were a small company. Anyway, the sport is getting a new clientel (sp?) and we really can't afford the prices because we waisted our years away snowboarding and not pursuing financial gains. Not to mention I am buying for 2 now and I am forced to buy a complete set up for my little one each year as she continues to grow and has more need of another board/boot/binding than myself. There is a new wave coming and it's going to piss a lot of people off on here, but we are going to ride and we can't afford $800 plus lifts or passes. Major manufacturers have automation capabilities that vastly outstrip smaller manufacturers. They can leverage their suppliers to do things a small producer never could based on their buying power. They can produce crappy RIM construction boards that cost next to nothing to assemble (the equiopment is very expensive). I specialize in manufacturing custom high end snowboards. My shop is not equipped to mass produce inexpensive boards and quite frankly, I don't get all excited about making cheap gear. I produce the least expensive board on the market in order to assist people with limited means in getting into the sport of alpine snowboarding. It is a stretch to do so, but it is a valuable endeavor. With the equipment I own and the country I live in, I can not produce anything for less. There are a number of very similar arguments that occur on various photography forums. Mostly they complain about cheap/inexpensive photographers destroying the market for the professionals. Your bio page indicates you are a professional photographer. I've yet to find a seasoned pro who believes that cheap photographers are a good thing. I guess I find the the dichotomy a bit unusual here. Perhaps I'm making the assumption that as a business owner and pro photographer you adhere to this norm. Just out of curiosity, do you feel that cheap photographers are good for that business model? I'm aware it's not exactly the same thing, but people who take great pride in making great pictures are very similar to guys who take great pride in making really good snowboards. You're probably no more willing to go out and take a bunch of poorly lit, poorly exposed snapshots than I am to go out and make a bunch of poorly made snowboards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Prokopiw Posted December 12, 2009 Report Share Posted December 12, 2009 This sport is the best example of the good side of trickle down that I have seen in a sporting life lived through mostly pro-deals,used equipment and scrounging for sponsorship. Until recently I had not paid more than 600.00 for a board and bindings.That's what I had into the 182 Coiler bought from Mike T(perhaps the best person to buy a 'trickle down product from) and a set of F2 Ti Intecs bought from Hardbooter.com.That setup will remain one of my all time favorites and that board will only ever be sold if needed to keep me and my family from living in a cardboard box.That board (and a couple of others that I paid much less for)taught me much of what to look for in my first custom which I had built by Diablo Composites and had a blast on today. After talking with Sean(Donek), Eric and Abel(Diablo) or Matts(Alpine Punk) or Frank(Virus) or Joerg(Pureboard) or Alexis(G-Force)about what they and others put into these boards,I can't see how they could charge any less.Even if I can't always afford what I would really want,(thank God for those that can)I can say that equipment and incredible access to builders in this sport,even at it's most elite levels,represents good value. On Sean's point about devaluing professional work I agree from an instructor's point of view as many resorts move away from professional staff and toward part time staff receiving lower pay and fewer benefits all while charging more than ever for less professional,lower quality experiences for their clientele.There are exceptions on both sides when it comes to instructor quality of course, but my point should be clear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tufty Posted December 13, 2009 Report Share Posted December 13, 2009 Just out of curiosity, do you feel that cheap photographers are good for that business model? I'm aware it's not exactly the same thing, but people who take great pride in making great pictures are very similar to guys who take great pride in making really good snowboards. You're probably no more willing to go out and take a bunch of poorly lit, poorly exposed snapshots than I am to go out and make a bunch of poorly made snowboards. The same arguments are made in many fields; indeed, I would suspect, in any field where the means of production is in the reach of the "tinkerer". In my opinion, however, the existence of "hobby professionals" willing to work for peanuts doesn't devalue the work of the hardened professional in any way - in most (but certainly not all) cases, the work of the bargain basement hobby professional ends up having to be redone by someone who knows what they are doing anyway. There are fields where the market becomes flooded with crappy workers; photography and web design spring to mind instantly; at this point the people commissioning work tend to (of they have any sense) decide who to employ on a "recommendations" basis, or risk throwing away their money. If you let your CEO's nephew do your website because "he does a bit of web design", you risk - well, lots. The existence of the lower priced people, though, does open the market to a range of companies that wouldn't even have thought about hiring a professional - as a pro software producer, I've picked up a lot of work over the last few years due to poor work quality from such hobby producers (and also from work originally outsourced to India, then pulled back). The situation is slightly different when you're talking about mass produced vs "crafted" product - it is easily within the grasp of the "big boys" to put a line of cheaply produced alpine boards in production and swamp out the little guys who are producing labours of love. A board produced on a production line in China at a cost of 20 bucks* and labeled as "EXTREME RACE CARVE MACHINE" would, of course, still be sold at the price of a higher-end freeride deck (if not more). I can't, for example, imagine that the few alpine boards still being produced (nidecker, f2, etc) outside of the "niche" producers, have any lower a profit margin than any of the freeride decks. But even if the big boys decided to slash profit margins and go for volume, I don't see that this would make much difference. The existence of mass-produced boards, even at super low prices, doesn't and wouldn't detract at all from the quality of what you're producing - indeed, even if only one in a hundred, or a thousand, buyers of a mass-produced board decides to "do it properly" and goes on to buy a Donek / Prior / etc, it's an additional sale. When you factor in that the Pilot is lower priced for the consumer than any mass-produced alpine board on the market over here, and that even the "standard" Donek boards are only undercut by *one* board I can buy here... Simon * numbers pulled out my arse Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnO'Brien Posted December 13, 2009 Report Share Posted December 13, 2009 Thanks for the legitamit responses, I'm picking up on what you are saying, however, seeing what the big guys do with lower grade bases and cores, I'm still wondering if there couldn't be a more economical way to produce your product. Sorry if I'm being a stick in the mud. Have you considered joining forces or sending work out? I've seen your vids on production and they are extremely informative. A friend of mine who owns a press is actually considering making long boards, not alpine, but big freeride boards. He used to make the Alien workshop decks back when they were a small company. Anyway, the sport is getting a new clientel (sp?) and we really can't afford the prices because we waisted our years away snowboarding and not pursuing financial gains. Not to mention I am buying for 2 now and I am forced to buy a complete set up for my little one each year as she continues to grow and has more need of another board/boot/binding than myself. There is a new wave coming and it's going to piss a lot of people off on here, but we are going to ride and we can't afford $800 plus lifts or passes. Photodad, I find it difficult that you cannot grasp the basic functions of supply and demand in a free market economy, especially as you preach to some pretty successful business men in Bruce, Shawn and the others that you in essence are suggesting don't know their titanal from a balance sheet. We should all want these companies to be financially viable so that they reinvest into our passion. Your suggestions that a $200 carving machine is sitting in their back rooms reminds me of allegations that the oil companies suppressed a technology for running cars on water! We are all consumers and suppliers of goods and services of some sort in our everyday lives, so we live this concept from both ends all the time, so I fail to see why are you flogging this concept so hard. Believe me, if the Chinese or any other low labor cost country saw this as an opportunity, they would be ripping apart a Donek Pilot to see how it's made and sending container loads to America and Europe. This market is not even a blip on their radar screen, so please don't hold your breath. We live in a free market economy and we all benefit from that. If there was this amazing opportunity available to market low cost snow boards, then some person/company will step up and do it. Some probably have and failed. Maybe Photodad could start up an alliance with Walmart and both of you could make millions in a market of a few hundred (if that) customers. After Walmart and the banks have had their way with you, you will be a mare puff of smoke in a war zone of other failed ventures in Walmart's back yard. It looks like you are a Photographer and live in a community of consumers. Instead of sitting at your computer wasting your time flogging you concept to a bunch of idiots like us, go sell some of your very reasonably priced photography services and spend your time making money to fund that new board. Good luck with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tex1230 Posted December 13, 2009 Report Share Posted December 13, 2009 To address Chinese manufacturing (or other low-cost labor markets): I worked on a venture importing Chinese-made vehicles into central america a while back. I also worked with a friend on producing a replacement part for a classic car. In both cases, the cost of manufacturing plus shipping was less than 20% of the cost of producing in the local market, but the minimum order was enormous. auto parts - 10,000 units. vehicles - 1000 units If you take these as an example and make a rough estimate that the minimum order of snowboards (which should fall somewhere in between these based on cost of materials and complexity of cconstruction) would be somewhere around 5000 units, which I believe exceeds the worldwide demand for alpine snowboards.(I'm sure it is more than the # of units sold in the US annually) So mass produce all you want - Where is your market? How many $200 boards do you think will sell? 1000? great...now you have 4000 boards sitting in a warehouse - and you have to add an extra 400% markup to the 1000 that sell if you want to break even, so (assuming 100% markup initially), your cheapo boards now have to sell for $500 if you expect to stay in business next year. Economies of scale only work in scalable commodities. Alpine snowboards have a pretty steady demand every year - it may be growing slightly, but I don't see a flood of cheap boards instantly quadrupling demand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Prokopiw Posted December 14, 2009 Report Share Posted December 14, 2009 That 'cheap' boards made to standardized specs here in North America with the least expensive but dependable materials available,could have use as rentals in the way cheap rentals do currently. Nothing drives a person to save up for their own stuff more than the rental experience on a Saturday at Any Resort USA. Slightly off subject is the fact that it would still be preferable safetywise to have the alpine rentals available only with a lesson,even if it's a brief one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fastskiguy Posted December 15, 2009 Report Share Posted December 15, 2009 I'm up to $500 for a used board this year and loving it. When I reach Fat City I'll get a new board annually. A couple of ways to look at it... Cutting edge board=easier to turn, better edge hold, heck this is fun! Old used board=less forgiving, less edge hold, heck, I'm improving my skills and it's still fun! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
photodad2001 Posted December 15, 2009 Report Share Posted December 15, 2009 There are a number of very similar arguments that occur on various photography forums. Mostly they complain about cheap/inexpensive photographers destroying the market for the professionals. Your bio page indicates you are a professional photographer. I've yet to find a seasoned pro who believes that cheap photographers are a good thing. I guess I find the the dichotomy a bit unusual here. Perhaps I'm making the assumption that as a business owner and pro photographer you adhere to this norm. Just out of curiosity, do you feel that cheap photographers are good for that business model? I'm aware it's not exactly the same thing, but people who take great pride in making great pictures are very similar to guys who take great pride in making really good snowboards. You're probably no more willing to go out and take a bunch of poorly lit, poorly exposed snapshots than I am to go out and make a bunch of poorly made snowboards. Actually I've found myself bringing down my prices for locational shoots, weddings, senior pics, etc., because the general public can't afford to put out 2-3 thousand and with todays modern digital cameras you can buy at any Best Buy or Click Camera a lot are doing it themselves, therefore I've had to reduce my price. I've gone from a minimum $2000 wedding to recently I've gone down to $1200. Now I'm still making profit and as such I wonder if there could be sacrifices made in other businesses like your own to accomodate those who truely can't afford it. Modernization and technology has made photography a lucrative yet weakened business. I actually do offer now a package where I don't drag out all my strobes, stands, backdrops, assistants, etc. to accomodate those that don't want to spend it. It actually makes the work much easier and with a couple tricks using cones over the flash and bounces I can replicate a "studio" environment, though not as good, for much less and I don't work as much, don't have to pay an assistant, and they don't spend as much. I also don't use the Hasselblad digital cameras, a Nikon D200 meets the needs of all my clientel. I'm not looking to get a gold metal in slalom or gs at the next olympics, I just want a narrowish board with a long edge contact that has a bigger scr than 8. You can't buy that new and what I've been able to get used has no camber, lost a lot of riggidity, and isn't what I would have chosen if I was buying new. Edit: In the last year I've lost 2 weddings to college students. I'm not pissed and I would never put down the bride or groom for trying to save money. It is what it is and I'd rather spend my money on lifts (actually getting out there and riding) than on something that might make the ride a bit smoother or get me a fraction more performance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
photodad2001 Posted December 15, 2009 Report Share Posted December 15, 2009 That 'cheap' boards made to standardized specs here in North America with the least expensive but dependable materials available,could have use as rentals in the way cheap rentals do currently.Nothing drives a person to save up for their own stuff more than the rental experience on a Saturday at Any Resort USA. Slightly off subject is the fact that it would still be preferable safetywise to have the alpine rentals available only with a lesson,even if it's a brief one. When I was single that would have been my stance too. In fact I am where I am because I invested too much into play back in the day. Now I'm buying a new board/boot/binding/glove/pant/jacket for my kid, plus 2 lifts instead of one. There are people out there that have multiple habits to support and I can't pay for a new board for myself when my daughter is actually outgrowing hers every year. I've dropped over three hundred already this year on my daughters stuff and we haven't even gone yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
photodad2001 Posted December 15, 2009 Report Share Posted December 15, 2009 Photodad' date='It looks like you are a Photographer and live in a community of consumers. Instead of sitting at your computer wasting your time flogging you concept to a bunch of idiots like us, go sell some of your very reasonably priced photography services and spend your time making money to fund that new board. Good luck with that.[/quote'] I'm actually changing fields as we speak. Photography is not a way I can make a living in my location with a child so I am 2 years into a Rad Tech degree and when I'm done I'm sure I'll get a new board but not till I take care of important stuff first like making sure my daughter has the best under her feet before I get mine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corey Posted December 15, 2009 Report Share Posted December 15, 2009 I've gone from a minimum $2000 wedding to recently I've gone down to $1200. Now I'm still making profit and as such I wonder if there could be sacrifices made in other businesses like your own to accomodate those who truely can't afford it. $1200? That's too much. How about $400? My friend Mr. Burton uses a 2 MP point and shoot camera and he says he took a good photo of a married couple once. He'll shoot our entire wedding for $400, so you must be able to as well. ;) I'm playing devil's advocate here. You could drop pricing if you lower quality of work/materials, but don't think that you'll get similar results. I'd put money on a used $200 board being 'better' than a new $250 Donek. No slight against Donek, just that there are limits to what can be done with cheap materials and quick (read: sloppy) build times. Sean has set his lowest acceptable limits with the Pilot, the same as you've set your lowest limits at a d200. Could you shoot a good wedding with a 15-year old digital camera with a scratched lens that won't focus properly? If you did, would you want those results tied to your name for all time? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted December 15, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 15, 2009 I've gone from a minimum $2000 wedding to recently I've gone down to $1200. Now I'm still making profit and as such I wonder if there could be sacrifices made in other businesses like your own to accomodate those who truely can't afford it. I'm actually changing fields as we speak. Photography is not a way I can make a living in my location with a child. There is your answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donek Posted December 16, 2009 Report Share Posted December 16, 2009 ;) I'm playing devil's advocate here. You could drop pricing if you lower quality of work/materials, but don't think that you'll get similar results. I'd put money on a used $200 board being 'better' than a new $250 Donek. No slight against Donek, just that there are limits to what can be done with cheap materials and quick (read: sloppy) build times. Precisiely. The used market is flooded with Ferraris at $200 and the best I anyone could do new at $200 is a yugo. There's no real point to attempting such an endeavor. In reality I prefer to know as little as possible about cars. As long as the wheels are turning, I'm happy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sultan Guy Posted December 17, 2009 Report Share Posted December 17, 2009 I work in the paddlesports industry for a company that manufactures high end composite kayak paddles in the United Sates. We successfully compete with Asian based brands with higher quality, better design, materials that are not readily available in Asia, and outstanding customer service. Chris and Sean have many similar challenges to us but can and do stand above the crowd. I will gladly pay a bit more for a high end snowboard made by a smaller company if I feel it performs better. My problem is that I am new and have only tried a few boards so don't really know how much I would pay, but if I rode a board that significantly helped my learning curve I think I would be happy paying a lot! :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMTom Posted December 17, 2009 Report Share Posted December 17, 2009 If it's going to make my boyfriend happy and fit. In the scheme of things, snowboards are very inexpensive toys - even compared to say, high-end designer handbags... IMTom's girlfriend Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arclite Posted December 17, 2009 Report Share Posted December 17, 2009 But to get into sub $399 prices, you'd be looking at a board made by communist slaves. Or Chad (CODA boards) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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