Ian M Posted February 6, 2009 Report Share Posted February 6, 2009 a cross-through transition results in the least displacement of the cg, and therefore greater stability, which will be helpful on ice. Is this what I was trying to describe, Jack? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueB Posted February 6, 2009 Report Share Posted February 6, 2009 I'm by no means a good ice rider, so take this with a grain of salt... Cross over works better for me. It allows me to really hammer on the edge as I came out of the transition. Then I sink through the turn (actually reducing or controling the pressure). This also brings my CG closer and closer to the board, reducing the chances for wash-out, without need for excessive hip/waist angulation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik J Posted February 6, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 6, 2009 So I just got back from riding - total hero snow, absolutely perfect cord. I'm going to start an ice thread every day if that's the voodoo it takes to get perfect snow. I'm going to try the Gilmour bias this weekend. I haven't tweaked my setup in a while so I'm looking forward to it. Thanks everyone for all the input. Keep it coming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted February 6, 2009 Report Share Posted February 6, 2009 Is this what I was trying to describe, Jack? Yeah. Keeping the elevation of the center of gravity as constant as possible is the primary goal of any vehicle suspension system. Cross-over achieves the opposite of that. It's possible to do cross-over on very firm conditions, but I'm not seeing it on real ice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael.a Posted February 6, 2009 Report Share Posted February 6, 2009 Kinda off track here... Today I had ice in the morning and actually managed quite well by grabbing my boots and keeping very low, but then temps jumped up and a little rain started to fall, so by 11am the snow was very very wet and slushly, we're talking about those huge wet piled up mounds everywhere interspaced with patches of ice. My favorite blue/black run turned into hell, I just couldnt do it. I couldnt keep the board on edge since as soon as I hit a bit wet pile of snow I just went flying, or if I did make it through, then a patch of ice would make me go skidding. This was on a 175 Swoard and later 172 Axxess, Im sure if I had a smaller 160ish board I couldve done it, but is there any technique for larger boards on these kinds of days? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
valsam Posted February 6, 2009 Report Share Posted February 6, 2009 After a day of raining and +++ temperatures and then the next day is way below 0 and there is no snow but ice and i mean ice like in an ice skating ring can anybody realy carve or even try to carve without geting killed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeoffV Posted February 6, 2009 Report Share Posted February 6, 2009 1st Fine tuned edge (most important factor) You can toss everything else out the window if you don't have a well tuned edge. I had an eye opening experience about 4 years ago on ice and a major break through for me. Just to set the stage... I was at Mt. Snow right after Christmas in 2005 I think . It had been really warm and raining during Christmas, the following day the temps dropped drastically and everything froze over solid. I was with my brother riding up the lift we looked down in shock and saw nothing but a sheet of ice everywhere. People where sliding and falling all over the place. My brother and I looked at each other and said, this is crazy we are going to kill ourselves.. But we had paid $70 plus for a ticket and were going to get our monies worth. We headed (actually I should say slid over the ice) to The North Face lift to get away from the crowds. It was like riding on a ice skating rink, probably the worst conditions I have ever been on in my 22 years of riding. I was riding my Madd 170, I looked down the North Face trail and thought to myself I'm going to kill myself. I knew I'd have to angulate hard, pressure the nose to set the edge and cross-under to get my board back on edge again as fast as possible. But I had to commit 100% to doing that and there in was my problem and fear. I linked a few turns picked up speed and panicked, lost my form and angulation and immediately started to shatter and lose grip. The next run down I made a decision to commit every turn. It was exhausting, terrifying and yet a huge rush for me. I was absolutely amazed that I could carve on a sheet of ice. The only time I would lose edge was when I was not angulated enough, didn't cross-under fast enough or wasn't pressuring the edge hard enough. I really had to be over the board, there was no sitting back at all. At one point I stopped to look and see what kind of carves I was leaving in the ice, I could barley see a line in the ice. I think what made this carve-able for me was that the surface was, yes solid ice, but also smooth and not rutted up. It was probably one of the most difficult days I've ever had carving, but I learned a lot about carving on a steep icy slope. Before that day I use to tighten up and panic when I saw ice. Now I angulate, pressure the edge and make sure my carve is set when I hit the ice. Once you panic and tense up you are going down. I still look back to that day as a huge jump in my carving skills and confidence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted February 6, 2009 Report Share Posted February 6, 2009 After a day of raining and +++ temperatures and then the next day is way below 0 and there is no snow but ice and i mean ice like in an ice skating ring can anybody realy carve or even try to carve without geting killed? depends on when they groom it. If they groom after the freeze, yeah, it can be carveable. My avatar is actually on those conditions, on a 158. If they groom the wet stuff and then it freezes, forget it. Hit the XC trails or go play Wii! +1 on what Geoff said about committing 100%. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yyzcanuck Posted February 6, 2009 Report Share Posted February 6, 2009 Dear Penthouse... I never thought all these letters were real until I had an eye opening experience about 4 years ago on ice and a major break through for me. Just to set the stage... I was at Mt. Snow right after Christmas in 2005 I think . It had been really warm and raining during Christmas, the following day the temps dropped drastically and everything froze over solid. ... I still look back to that day as a huge jump in my carving skills and confidence. Just replace the words "on ice" with "with a hot babe" and the story is complete! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Gilmour Posted February 6, 2009 Report Share Posted February 6, 2009 narrow decks work better for cutting through crud tot eh base... High edge angles help too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtslalom Posted February 7, 2009 Report Share Posted February 7, 2009 I'm jumping in this thread late so bare with me. Having many days riding with EricJ (12 or so) I can attest that he really doesn't have much trouble riding icy conditions. My experience is a little different than most people since I only ride soft boots now. The one thing I have noticed about riding icy slopes is the fact that it is definately easier to do on a hard deck with hard boots than a soft deck with soft boots. I think that the ability to initially drive your knees then hips into the turn with complete stability throughout the whole turn is easier achieved on a hard deck provided you have the correct technique. I also think that as mentioned some where above it takes balls. That initial knee drive must occur without hesitation and the hips must drop down quickly after. One thing I also think is important is binding angles. When I rode hard boots I had 63 front 66 back. I think the steeper the angles the more it allows your hips to get involved with the turn. The closer your hips get to the snow the greater the board/snow angle can occur. As written in one of the tech articles this allows for a tighter turn, a little more speed within that turn and greater pressure exerted on the edge provided your upper body is in correct position. When angles are down around 45 or so like mine are now you tend to really on ankle flexion and less on the angle of your hips to upper body. This can cause on heelside turns to drop your butt more towards the inside of the turn and on toeside a little more in the air. Both these movements cause less pressure on the edge and therefore more difficult to drive good turns in ice. All in all I found my best days of riding icy slopes were on my 153 cm volkl Renntiger with 66/69 binding angles. My turns were initiated quick and the board came around quick as I got my hips lower and lower throughout the turn. By the end my knees sometimes hit my chest as I was slightly turned uphill entering my next turn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fastskiguy Posted February 7, 2009 Report Share Posted February 7, 2009 One thing I also think is important is binding angles. When I rode hard boots I had 63 front 66 back. I think the steeper the angles the more it allows your hips to get involved with the turn. The closer your hips get to the snow the greater the board/snow angle can occur. As written in one of the tech articles this allows for a tighter turn, a little more speed within that turn and greater pressure exerted on the edge provided your upper body is in correct position. Gotta agree, especially for toesides, steeper boot angles let you get your hip more inside. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevo Posted February 7, 2009 Report Share Posted February 7, 2009 1st Fine tuned edge (most important factor)You can toss everything else out the window if you don't have a well tuned edge. I had an eye opening experience about 4 years ago on ice and a major break through for me. Just to set the stage... I was at Mt. Snow right after Christmas in 2005 I think . It had been really warm and raining during Christmas, the following day the temps dropped drastically and everything froze over solid. I was with my brother riding up the lift we looked down in shock and saw nothing but a sheet of ice everywhere. People where sliding and falling all over the place. My brother and I looked at each other and said, this is crazy we are going to kill ourselves.. But we had paid $70 plus for a ticket and were going to get our monies worth. We headed (actually I should say slid over the ice) to The North Face lift to get away from the crowds. It was like riding on a ice skating rink, probably the worst conditions I have ever been on in my 22 years of riding. I was riding my Madd 170, I looked down the North Face trail and thought to myself I'm going to kill myself. I knew I'd have to angulate hard, pressure the nose to set the edge and cross-under to get my board back on edge again as fast as possible. But I had to commit 100% to doing that and there in was my problem and fear. I linked a few turns picked up speed and panicked, lost my form and angulation and immediately started to shatter and lose grip. The next run down I made a decision to commit every turn. It was exhausting, terrifying and yet a huge rush for me. I was absolutely amazed that I could carve on a sheet of ice. The only time I would lose edge was when I was not angulated enough, didn't cross-under fast enough or wasn't pressuring the edge hard enough. I really had to be over the board, there was no sitting back at all. At one point I stopped to look and see what kind of carves I was leaving in the ice, I could barley see a line in the ice. I think what made this carve-able for me was that the surface was, yes solid ice, but also smooth and not rutted up. It was probably one of the most difficult days I've ever had carving, but I learned a lot about carving on a steep icy slope. Before that day I use to tighten up and panic when I saw ice. Now I angulate, pressure the edge and make sure my carve is set when I hit the ice. Once you panic and tense up you are going down. I still look back to that day as a huge jump in my carving skills and confidence. GV, nice post. i've only been at this 4 years or so, i appreciate you sharing the real life experience Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fastskiguy Posted February 7, 2009 Report Share Posted February 7, 2009 Things that we do that we shouldn't do LOL a stiffen up so your body is rigid b lean back over your back food c reach for the snow by bending at the waist d don't complete the turns all of the way e keep your edges a little dull f move into the turn nice and slowly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hotbeans Posted February 7, 2009 Report Share Posted February 7, 2009 This might warrant a new thread, but it's related to this discussion.. I went out yesterday with both the coiler and the virus. Slope conditions were coming off a 15 deg. night, groomed, nearly ice (prob. granular that had frozen overnight), black and blue runs. temp rose to 25 during day. I have bumped up my angles to 60/58 on both boards due to occasional boot out and was looking for a bit more of a squared hip to tighten up my feed-through actions. First few runs involved washing out (chatter on toeside, board occillation on heelsides) which I diagnosed as needing more angulation and a more upright upper body position through apex and finish of the turn. (others please feel free to comment on this approach). I also decided that a longer board (virus) would compensate a bit for my inconsistent technique that morning. Somewhat better, but I did find that the heelside occillation was cured by throwing BOTH hands towards the one-oclock position (goofy). What this inadvertantly did was cause a laid-out EC type turn with my hands floating ~1inch off the snow! That was cool and I was able to do a couple of toeside turns where my hands were just skimming off the deck. I then realized that I was *extending* during the apex and compressing during the transition, just like Jack and others were saying earlier. While I occasionally still struggled with toeside chatter/heelside occillations, on easy blues/green runs layin' it out was a blast. Not a great day, but it helped me realize that I struggle with consistency and changing snow conditions (and a general lack of expertise on the subject!) Thanks for all the advice offered up here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
queequeg Posted February 8, 2009 Report Share Posted February 8, 2009 AWESOME story Geoff! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted February 9, 2009 Report Share Posted February 9, 2009 narrow decks work better for cutting through crud tot eh base Owning an 18cm Madd 158 and a 21cm Coiler, I respectfully but thoroughly disagree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingCrimson Posted February 9, 2009 Report Share Posted February 9, 2009 Owning an 18cm Madd 158 and a 21cm Coiler, I respectfully but thoroughly disagree. Is this in part because the other edge is that much further away from the surface, and therefore less prone to catch? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike T Posted February 9, 2009 Report Share Posted February 9, 2009 Owning an 18cm Madd 158 and a 21cm Coiler, I respectfully but thoroughly disagree. +1 21.5 waited Coiler AM-T 176 for me, carves in crud-over-hardpack that by all rights should not be carveable. I gots a Madd 158 original (came to me well used) which is as bad in crud as it is good on ice, owned many other 18ish waists and with the exception of very long ones (Coiler PR188 SB) they've all sucked in crud over hard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Stevens Posted February 9, 2009 Report Share Posted February 9, 2009 Great technique here, as far as stance and balance is concerned. The missing element for ice is the point at which power is applied. At what point do you see snow starting to fly? John G hits on this. An early edge change is critical, but this rider is doing that too. Focus more on this riders focus. Where is he looking? If he's looking down the fall line all the way through this transition, he is likely to power late. Shift the focus in a more sweeping arc. See more of the hill. Exiting the toeside, I would want to see the side of the riders head, looking across and up the hill. When the board crosses through, you want to feel as if you're feeding the nose up the hill a bit. This rider is clearly feeding it across, but more down and consequently only able to build late pressure which is the kiss of death on ice. When you do this right, you might start to see the snow fly off the edge much earlier than the fall line. This is going to translate to more even edge pressure throughout the entire turn, rather than strictly in the latter half. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Gilmour Posted February 9, 2009 Report Share Posted February 9, 2009 Owning an 18cm Madd 158 and a 21cm Coiler, I respectfully but thoroughly disagree. by narrow I mean thickness not board width I had an Apocalypse 7G channel bottom with a super thick sidewall.... never could cut through even wet granular.. it just planed on the sidewall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave ESPI Posted February 10, 2009 Report Share Posted February 10, 2009 I was loving life on sunday..... today however after teh warm up and re-freeze, it was death cookies, marbles and frozen uneven groom. HARD HARD HARD with tractor treads under it with patches of pure blue ice. I went to two mountains trying to find some good carveable snow. I found some tonight @ WEST MOUNTAIN in NY. It was hhard and fast, and you really had to be "on point" with form. I chatttered a lot but once I got in a nice weight transfer groove of a carveing run, it was like velcro on ice. Quite nice, but Id much rather have hero trench stuff anyday. One thing I can say however, is that on ice, its much easier to ride in and I went 7+ hours today in hardboots around 25 runs or so worth and was not really as beat as I am in the softer stuff. Perhaps it is a sliding scale with howmuch lean and recovery and actual digging we do into the hill that makes it less effort on ice as we relaly cant just hanner out the tight turns we want to or else we risk blowout and do the "Assey360" (one of my fave tricks) on our butts. A thin board does indeed seem to help, as does having higher anfles with some exposed edge of the board so ast to let a half inch of board extend beyond your toes and heels ( or so it seemed to work for me today) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BulletProof Posted February 10, 2009 Report Share Posted February 10, 2009 talking about ice, I was at Jay Peak last Sunday, everything thawed on saturday, add some rain. A bit of snow in the morning and -10°C with 40kph winds. apparently the glades where fine, everything on the right of the tram (which was closed) was an ice rink. Never saw a blue sheet of ice 5m wide x200+m long... saw a couple nutcases try their luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik J Posted February 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 Ever have one of those days when everything feels juuust right? That was yesterday. I tried changing a few little details with my setup after giving my board a very loving tune - - Gilmour bias ROCKS! I didn't get to try this on ice yet, since starting this thread the snow went from hero groom to slush. I have a bit more overhang on my rear toe than I would like, whatever. Now I need a wider board. - Shortened my stance a little. So I immediately noticed a more stable platform. The movement of my rear toe to the toeside and front heel to the heelside was really nice (Gilmour bias). To do this I needed to shorten my stance a bit, I'm at about 21" now. The power that I was able to generate was effing sick. Riding back up the lift I could see a few spots with about 20' of space between my edge changes. My lines also felt a little more clean, like I wasn't battling the edge. I noticed the "feed the dollar" thing more, which I really liked as it felt even more dynamic. The whole stance just felt more natural and intuitive. I've used the word "more" a lot here. Thank you all for adding to this thread (+ 1 for Geoff's story), please keep it coming! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Gilmour Posted February 12, 2009 Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 I'll go into more depth about "Gilmour Bias" and how to optimize it... there is a theory behind it involving lift and a fulcrum point... more on it later.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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